So I've been recently arguing with my 6s team about whether, on last, the roamer should counter-sack or not. They say it's essentially useless and we should "enjoy our numbers advantage," while I say that it at least gives a chance for a play.
For example, let's say you're playing roamer on Snakewater last. Their roamer goes and sacks. Do you sack your roamer in return, or just wait, or something else?
Counter-Sacking as Roamer
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TF2 General Discussion
So I've been recently arguing with my 6s team about whether, on last, the roamer should counter-sack or not. They say it's essentially useless and we should "enjoy our numbers advantage," while I say that it at least gives a chance for a play.
For example, let's say you're playing roamer on Snakewater last. Their roamer goes and sacks. Do you sack your roamer in return, or just wait, or something else?
For example, let's say you're playing roamer on Snakewater last. Their roamer goes and sacks. Do you sack your roamer in return, or just wait, or something else?
It doesn't necessarily have to be the roamer. It could be anybody so long as they die QUICKLY after the prior suicide (otherwise you're gonna' get burnt really hard by your respawn disadvantage).
You do it because the other team is probably disorganized in the wake of their suicide and they have 1 less set of eyes on your potential entry points.
Your objective would be to get a force, or an additional kill (without dying in this case).
It's perfectly viable.
As long as whoever counter suicides dies quickly there's no reason not to. If you're already running a sniper, have him go for the shot of his life, etc etc.
The way I'd like it done is just whomever is closest to the doors to get into the other team would go so as to keep the number of seconds you're alive moving to make a play to a minimum.
It doesn't necessarily have to be the roamer. It could be anybody so long as they die QUICKLY after the prior suicide (otherwise you're gonna' get burnt really hard by your respawn disadvantage).
You do it because the other team is probably disorganized in the wake of their suicide and they have 1 less set of eyes on your potential entry points.
Your objective would be to get a force, or an additional kill (without dying in this case).
It's perfectly viable.
As long as whoever counter suicides dies quickly there's no reason not to. If you're already running a sniper, have him go for the shot of his life, etc etc.
The way I'd like it done is just whomever is closest to the doors to get into the other team would go so as to keep the number of seconds you're alive moving to make a play to a minimum.
You do it because the other team is probably disorganized in the wake of their suicide and they have 1 less set of eyes on your potential entry points.
Your objective would be to get a force, or an additional kill (without dying in this case).
It's perfectly viable.
As long as whoever counter suicides dies quickly there's no reason not to. If you're already running a sniper, have him go for the shot of his life, etc etc.
The way I'd like it done is just whomever is closest to the doors to get into the other team would go so as to keep the number of seconds you're alive moving to make a play to a minimum.
should be whoever already has a buff and is in position to go if you are going to counter suicide
should be whoever already has a buff and is in position to go if you are going to counter suicide
As long as it is a quick decision, its completely worth it.. even if you don't get anything out of it. It could cause a good pick and trigger a push for your team.
As long as it is a quick decision, its completely worth it.. even if you don't get anything out of it. It could cause a good pick and trigger a push for your team.
MoyThey say it's essentially useless and we should "enjoy our numbers advantage,"
This makes no sense: assuming even ubers, a numbers advantage of 1 while defending last is very difficult to push off of on most if not all maps. You'll just be stalemated until they respawn as a pick class and (probably) eventually get a pick they'll push off of. As long as you go quickly, counter suiciding at least gives you a chance to get a pushable advantage. If you don't get anything, you'll still spawn quickly enough to be in the fight on last.
[quote=Moy]They say it's essentially useless and we should "enjoy our numbers advantage,"[/quote]
This makes no sense: assuming even ubers, a numbers advantage of 1 while defending last is very difficult to push off of on most if not all maps. You'll just be stalemated until they respawn as a pick class and (probably) eventually get a pick they'll push off of. As long as you go quickly, counter suiciding at least gives you a chance to get a pushable advantage. If you don't get anything, you'll still spawn quickly enough to be in the fight on last.
This makes no sense: assuming even ubers, a numbers advantage of 1 while defending last is very difficult to push off of on most if not all maps. You'll just be stalemated until they respawn as a pick class and (probably) eventually get a pick they'll push off of. As long as you go quickly, counter suiciding at least gives you a chance to get a pushable advantage. If you don't get anything, you'll still spawn quickly enough to be in the fight on last.
You have the option of doing an uber push with the player advantage as well. Assuming you don't take long to do it, their respawner will still be a while off, making their post uber weaker. If it's a scrim, there's definitely no reason not to take risks and try different plays/strategies.
That is a different kettle of fish, though.
You have the option of doing an uber push with the player advantage as well. Assuming you don't take long to do it, their respawner will still be a while off, making their post uber weaker. If it's a scrim, there's definitely no reason not to take risks and try different plays/strategies.
That is a different kettle of fish, though.
That is a different kettle of fish, though.
Just push out of last. Punish them for sacking their roamer.
Just push out of last. Punish them for sacking their roamer.
I don't really like passive playstyle like that, if you countersack and do not get anything done its just going to be a really long, drawn out cycle, usually after a roamer sacks, he, or maybe a scout goes and offclasses and just waits for a pick. If your team has confidence they should just push out, on any map, really. If the ubers are even just exchange ubers and make sure in some way your team comes out better then their team with it.
I don't really like passive playstyle like that, if you countersack and do not get anything done its just going to be a really long, drawn out cycle, usually after a roamer sacks, he, or maybe a scout goes and offclasses and just waits for a pick. If your team has confidence they should just push out, on any map, really. If the ubers are even just exchange ubers and make sure in some way your team comes out better then their team with it.
spaceghostpurrpJust push out of last. Punish them for sacking their roamer.
While I'm definitely an advocate of an aggressive play-style, the issue with that is that you may not have positioning, health, or availability to be able to push out properly after someone from their team just scarified themselves.
On top of that a team who is sending a sac usually isn't in a position to defend against quick initialized counter-sac, as opposed to defending against a push.
In fact, last lan, I'm pretty sure Mix^ had a play where Plat would over extend on purpose and bleed(on demo) and iT would push into them and they lost every single time
[quote=spaceghostpurrp]Just push out of last. Punish them for sacking their roamer.[/quote]
While I'm definitely an advocate of an aggressive play-style, the issue with that is that you may not have positioning, health, or availability to be able to push out properly after someone from their team just scarified themselves.
On top of that a team who is sending a sac usually isn't in a position to defend against quick initialized counter-sac, as opposed to defending against a push.
In fact, last lan, I'm pretty sure Mix^ had a play where Plat would over extend on purpose and bleed(on demo) and iT would push into them and they lost every single time
While I'm definitely an advocate of an aggressive play-style, the issue with that is that you may not have positioning, health, or availability to be able to push out properly after someone from their team just scarified themselves.
On top of that a team who is sending a sac usually isn't in a position to defend against quick initialized counter-sac, as opposed to defending against a push.
In fact, last lan, I'm pretty sure Mix^ had a play where Plat would over extend on purpose and bleed(on demo) and iT would push into them and they lost every single time
HiveMindspaceghostpurrpJust push out of last. Punish them for sacking their roamer.
While I'm definitely an advocate of an aggressive play-style, the issue with that is that you may not have positioning, health, or availability to be able to push out properly after someone from their team just scarified themselves.
On top of that a team who is sending a sac usually isn't in a position to defend against quick initialized counter-sac, as opposed to defending against a push.
In fact, last lan, I'm pretty sure Mix^ had a play where Plat would over extend on purpose and bleed(on demo) and iT would push into them and they lost every single time
True
[quote=HiveMind][quote=spaceghostpurrp]Just push out of last. Punish them for sacking their roamer.[/quote]
While I'm definitely an advocate of an aggressive play-style, the issue with that is that you may not have positioning, health, or availability to be able to push out properly after someone from their team just scarified themselves.
On top of that a team who is sending a sac usually isn't in a position to defend against quick initialized counter-sac, as opposed to defending against a push.
In fact, last lan, I'm pretty sure Mix^ had a play where Plat would over extend on purpose and bleed(on demo) and iT would push into them and they lost every single time[/quote]
True
While I'm definitely an advocate of an aggressive play-style, the issue with that is that you may not have positioning, health, or availability to be able to push out properly after someone from their team just scarified themselves.
On top of that a team who is sending a sac usually isn't in a position to defend against quick initialized counter-sac, as opposed to defending against a push.
In fact, last lan, I'm pretty sure Mix^ had a play where Plat would over extend on purpose and bleed(on demo) and iT would push into them and they lost every single time[/quote]
True
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