A scorpion and a frog meet on the bank of a stream and the scorpion asks the frog to carry him across on its back. The frog asks, "How do I know you won't sting me?" The scorpion says, "Because if I do, I will die too."

The frog is satisfied, and they set out, but in midstream, the scorpion stings the frog. The frog feels the onset of paralysis and starts to sink, knowing they both will drown, but has just enough time to gasp "Why?"

Replies the scorpion: "It’s my nature..."

If someone leads off with a statement as off-target as "Reddit's a wonderful community" it's really hard to take whatever follows seriously

I'm fairly certain that with little context you removed me citing "autism".

Not sure how you're not "toxic" yourself.

You were insulting pubbers and spamming chat with stupid memes, and when I asked you why you were doing it, you said "because pubs". So I removed you and made it clear why I don't want to be friends with you.

I also frequent that specific server, they know I don't mean a damn thing I say.
Again, little context.

http://puu.sh/dxV8L/0cdfafd40a.png

the resistance to the idea of at the very least not being a huge fuckin jagoff to strangers in a video game is disappointing. you guys want tf2 to grow but not if it means you might have to stop circlejerking long enough to appeal to people outside of the 6s bubble.

Arguing with each other and pointing fingers will solve NOTHING. Looking at you smobo and ploxo.

@clockwork and basically everybody else pointing out that a competitive gaming community is inherently "toxic" by nature:

I totally agree. Thankfully nobody really said that players aren't allowed to shit talk. Among random examples of shit talk, smobo pointed out comp players picking on pubbers for no reason and comp players aliasing as and using racist/homophobic language. That's not "shit talk". That's not "the spirit of competitive gaming". That's just being an asshole. I'd say that's something we should strive to knock off. Be as toxic to your teammates and opponents in a competitive environment as you want, but it's not a stretch to draw the line at racist/homophobic remarks.

What I've been saying is that the hub of competitive TF2 shouldn't tolerate language like "nigger" and "faggot", let alone condone it. Thankfully, the post I brought up on page one has since been downfragged, so that's good to see.

Basically my point is not that this community should try to be all hugbox-y. On the contrary, I said that's not the point I'm trying to get across. I just think there should be a little house cleaning on the hub of competitive Team Fortress 2.

How many times is this argument going to be posted? Why is it so hard to understand that TF2's comp community can't get away with what, say, Counter Strike gets away with?

1) Counter Strike has a thriving competitive scene. TF2 does not.
2) Counter Strike is actively supported by Valve as a competitive game. TF2 is not.
3) Counter Strike is largely known as a competitive game. TF2 is not.

And again, stop setting up imaginary arguments where you're being asked to stop shit talking. Just knock off casual racist/homophobic remarks on the fucking hub of competitive TF2 and don't bully people in pubs. That doesn't represent your community well.

"pointing fingers will solve NOTHING."
"Looking at you smobo and ploxo."

bruh

I'm just saying that it's the same thing with a different face.
Competitive communities have shit-talk, cliques, caustic personalities and everything else you can call "toxic." But to sit there and consider these people less valid members of the community is, in turn "toxic."
If you're gonna call the kettle black, you might as well know what you are.

Literally no one has said that. People have been arguing two things:

1. The extent of toxic attitudes

2. The impact toxic attitudes affect the growth.

It isn't resistance to stop being "jagoff's", its people voicing how ridiculous it is that people think it is a problem when on the whole tf2 is a very welcoming community with a much more friendly environment than nearly every other E-Sport, and that somehow people thinking that making jokes = toxic while in reality only a small amount of players could truly be considered to have bad attitudes.

Reading the posts here and many of threads lately have drained both my will to live and my desire to play this game more than any amount of toxicity in 10 years would ever have done to me.

if someone who you don't know personally "is toxic" to you and you feel bad about it, you are projecting your own insecurity on yourself. this isn't a lesson that is unique to tf2, it exists everywhere in life. if you get mad or upset at a random person who says something "toxic" it is YOUR problem and YOUR "fault."

not really an either or thing, its not "bully or be bullied," but mentally stable, mature, and healthy people just don't go around getting upset enough to quit a game when someone does lenny face or says "Shut Down Your Computer" in text chat or even voice chat.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-esteem

theres my yung philosophy major

can't be rude if you want your game to be seen as professional

might end up as toxic as these guys

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MkxO8L0IaRY

So you're telling me that bullying and insulting people is fine, because if you're impacted by it, it's your fault?

All those people who have been bullied to the point of considering suicide, you're saying that it's their fault for being upset when other people say mean thing about them? Yeah, they're dumb teenagers. No, those insults don't really matter in the end. But how the fuck does that make it OK?

I can feel the straw man coming. No i'm not saying this happened to anyone in competitive TF2, but it has happened to people.

the NHL isn't a for fun hobby that's wondering why their player base is shrinking

Are you victim blaming every single person who's ever been affected by verbal bullying since the dawn of time?

What's wrong with you?

Thanks for the input. It's not like you're the upteenth person to strawman the fuck out of every single post in this thread, so your post is an overall great contribution.

I heard you liked pointing fingers
So I pointed fingers at your pointed fingers

Yeah, now I realize that I didn't phrase that well. Point still stands though, in-fighting will do us no good.

it doesnt make it "ok"

people who insult and bully other people also have self esteem issues, its two ends of the same spectrum.

and yeah, if you're considering suicide, i would say you probably have a lot of issues in your life. it's "your fault." what i mean by that is that if you change your attitude, you won't feel like killing yourself anymore.

dont count on the world changing itself around you, count on changing yourself.

Damn, nice analysis man. Why didn't anybody ever think of that before? If you're thinking of killing yourself, just... stop! Novel.

Really though, knock this shit off. Please 180 your beliefs on this subject. I don't mean to sound like a peer guidance counselor or something, but come on dude. Like, yeah, it's naive to count on the world changing for you, but it's just as naive to believe that a person who's suicidal or lacks self esteem can just change on the fly, like flipping a switch on or off.

http://bit.ly/sQHqP4

It is a game -- their involvement in the game is optional. They can change servers, they can leave that session, they can just not play it. That argument is a moot point. If they want to, they can avoid the situation, there are no repercussions to hud_saytexttime_0 voice_enable 0 other than some moderate lack of interaction.
As somebody that has been to that point, don't use people like me to back your bullshit up. It's fucking insulting to see some candy-ass man-child try to use that to back up their own agenda. It is even worse when it's under the guise of some "feel good" crap. It's censorship in a rated "M" game where furry porn is allowed to be sprayed where ever the fuck you want it.* If you really want feel good times go back to goddamn club penguin and runescape, because there is very, very little point in your argument.

*you can disable sprays to if that makes your butt hurt as well.

"I'm allowed to be a dick to people on TF2 because they can just stop playing!"

That's literally the definition of bullying, dude.

"It's fucking insulting to see some candy-ass man-child try to use that to back up their own agenda."

Good ad hominem. Why are you even posting if you aren't willing to take this seriously?

i don't agree with the notion of people leaving the game as a result of these behaviors, but they are certainly not encouraging to newcomers.

tossing racial/sexual slurs at people in pubs/lobbies
openly mocking less knowledgeable newbs in their own lft threads (HL classes especially)
openly mocking anyone with a UGC profile

people who become interested in comp hear about tf.tv as THE center for comp tf2. they come to take a shot at learning and playing, and this is how some people respond to them. this sends the message "you aren't welcome here". some may press on because they are passionate, others may decide that this first impression actually represents the community and go back to ignoring it. it doesn't, obviously, but they don't know that. we're supposed to be promoting this game, not convincing newcomers that it isn't worth their time. it really is that simple.

Neither is being used in this instance, you're an idiot. I'm saying it's a voluntary choice to play there - especially in pubs. If you can't handle it in a match, the previous options exist or maybe, just maybe being competitive isn't for you (as has been stated ad nauseum in this thread).
It's not about inclusiveness here, competition is meant to divide. I don't know if it was your bad sports coaches that misinformed you or if it was the little special snowflake brigade, but that is how it works.
I'm going to ignore the second part.

My man, are you for real.

e.g. making a player leave a server/stop playing the game by verbally harassing them.

How much time did you spend trying to find a definition of "bullying" that kind of almost didn't exactly match my usage of it?

Also nice ad hominem again.

Speaking of things stated and restated, let's not forget that I've said a million times that I never said people aren't allowed to shit talk in a competitive environment.

It basically comes down to "We need to be nicer to pubbers" and "no, fuck pubbers". There's also a third group whos deluded into thinking pubbers don't just hate comp, which I sadly have to disagree. Before, I posted that on my first "playcomp.tf" bind in a pub, I was told "No, I don't want to be one of those comp assholes". After while, I went server hopping, and guess what? That kind of reply is common. I'm guessing a lot of people talking about this don't actually play pubs, whether they find it unfun or beneath them, doesn't matter, they don't know what people are actually saying.

This is the thing some people just aren't getting. It doesn't matter if YOU or WE think the comp community is toxic, the pub community DOES think that. You can not like it all you want, but without new players coming in, comp TF2 is dead, and pubs are where new comp players come from. Its not fucking hard to be a little nicer to pubbers, to not call people who play non-6s classes shit and skill less, to not take a giant shit every time Highlander is mentioned. You don't need to stroke off every new player, or hold their hand to bring them to the promised land, just be a decent fucking human being for gods sakes. If thats seriously too hard for you, then guess what? You *are* toxic.

I can't believe we have to have a debate on whether calling someone you don't know "nigger" is bad.

you guys all care way too damn much

It's good advice, really, and it's definitely something I've thought about before. However, we're talking about a community-wide issue of "How do we get more people to play competitive TF2?", which is the subject of the thread. My response to that question is that we should clean up the forums (and other community features like tf2center) to create a more welcoming community, since we can't alter the attitudes of people that are bothered by trash talk and slurs.

Why do people around here think it's cool to be apathetic to issues regarding their community? Why even bother posting?

we should ban all hl and ugc players from the forums so they cant get hurt

http://puu.sh/dxYEq.png

Fuck I gotta go tell all those suicidal people steeped in deep depression, they just have to change their attitude, it's so simple

suicide hotlines should just have someone who picks up the phone and yells "suck it up!"