There's always option 3, people don't take tagg's word or my word but rather, use their own critical thinking skills to come to a conclusion independent of analysts.

im pretty sure i never said ma3la on pyro was the reason elv was winning. I asked the question: would they still be losing as quickly if ma3la was still pyro. If you wanna be upset about that go ahead and keep wasting your time

wow who cares he played pyro is anyone even taking this season seriously

ma3la demonstrates pretty well why pyro unlocks are banned here

i would just like to refute this:

for some reason, everyone is focusing on maela's pyro and the performance of his team, and completely overlooking the fact that i ran pyro just as much as maela did during the match, as you can see here

some cold hard facts for you

• during the first half, maela ran pyro ~50% of the time, i spawned pyro once
  
• elevate went up 3-1 in the first half
  
• during the second half, i ran pyro ~50% of the time, maela spawned pyro once
  
• my team won the second half 4-0

pretty much looks like pyro wins rounds right? though it might look convincing to some, it would be misguided to declare that running a pyro led to each team getting some extra round wins, a lot else went into the game

one thing we can say for sure though, is that pyro did not totally screw over either team, because we won the majority of our rounds with a pyro in the mix, and additonally the heals/frags per minute were very similar for our stats as soldier and pyro individually

how a person could come to the conclusion that pyro was actually resulting in overall worse performance for their team is beyond me, but likely means that such a person should get back to their limited success as a highlander demoman, and keep his thoughts on invite offclassing to himself

wtf happened to this game

literally toasted

fucking later

http://hydra-media.cursecdn.com/dota2.gamepedia.com/2/2e/Clinkz_level_02.mp3

I'm disappointed in the lack of slam dunk gifs. Even if I think that the timing of ma3la's Pyro plays (including once to mid I believe? Correct me if I'm wrong) was less thought out compared to grape, grape did toast everyone in this thread

i know have justification to run full time pyro this week

thank you so much grape and ma3la

maybe if the unlocks didn't make pyro retardedly viable

vod? I wanna watch the drama and the pyro plays

At the top level of play two people have found a way to make pyro viable. It's not like pyro is magaically 100% better than pocket, playing with a pyro requires the team with the pyro to play differently than they normally would. It's as if it's suddenly the only way to play TF2, or even the best. I'd assume it's pretty difficult to adapt to as a team.

So watching the demo:

First half Ma3la pyro did basically nothing. He could have been pocketed as spy and had the same impact on the game. He can't get in, his spam is less effective, has lower hp, and needs to be relatively close for optimal damage. Even with gunboat soldiers feeding him rockets, it was really low impact. Especially on last defense, he missed like two kills because he aims flame like a silver highlander pyro.

Second half he got a flank on the medic on mid, but again, the fact that he's pyro is meaningless. Soldier would have accomplished the same thing. It seems grape makes more of an impact because elevate is playing incredibly scared of his pyro. There isn't really any reason to fear a pyro pushing into you. Just kill him.

As for the pyro team winning rounds... correlation doesn't mean causation. I wasn't in the game so I can only state conjecture, but through spectating, the pyros didn't see to have much impact on the outcome, and probably would have just done more on soldier.

If anyone is interested, here's ninjanick's POV of this match.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waeND2bYwBk

Since it's not on Youtube yet, here's the Twitch vod (comes with quality options): http://www.twitch.tv/teamfortresstv/v/3771235

I did not say that those facts definitively proved that pyro was effective, I said it disproved the idea that pyro was hampering either team's performance. Maela stopped running pyro almost entirely when I started, and his team got blown out during that half. If you would like to think he somehow was still making more of an impact by playing soldier as his team proceeded to lose 4 rounds in a row, I don't know if I could ever convince you of anything.

Regardless of some blindingly obvious evidence presented to you, I can tell you that I know maela was contributing to his team's round wins on pyro. You said yourself that elevate was playing differently when I ran pyro, I would argue the case was even more true for my own team. The only thing my team discussed at half time was countering his pyro play. Despite the fact that he probably still could have gotten a crucial med pick on mid by playing soldier instead of pyro, he still got it. He also clinched their first round while playing pyro by single handedly stuffing our attempt to push out of last, and getting an entry pick on cyzer.

This is delusional. In case you didn't notice, pyro spam isn't effective, but neither is any spam from the opposing team thanks to this mechanic we call airblast. By running pyro you're effectively cutting off all potential sources of projectile spam or suicides that the enemy team can throw at you. On top of that, this is gullywash – the map with the strongest choke points and most close-quarters fighting of any map in rotation. A pocket pyro should never lose a fight to anything but a pocketed scout or a healthy 2v1.

Given that I played in the match, main called for the team I played on, and also played as and against pyro during the game, I figured you'd realize I'm slightly more informed than you on the topic and you would just take my word for it. I thought a quick post would be enough to get the point across to you, but apparently not. You baited me, good work.

All of this conjecture on such a random game seems to be a little overdoing it, so I'm probably gonna try to make some use out of the whole thing and make a post in the near future about pyro in competitive since no one really seems to get it. Stay tuned.

It's interesting to see all the humhum over this match because of a mixup (*) in the meta.
*too soon?

I did not say he was not contributing. I did not say he wasn't effective. I did not say he was causing his team to do worse. What I said was the fact that he's on pyro didn't actually mean too much. I suppose I mocked him for missing a few kills too, so that was unneeded, but my point was: most of what he did he would accomplish by being soldier, as well. I'm not saying pyro is shit, I'm saying it didn't really matter much in this game. It's not some meta-game revolution.

I understand it isn't effective. That's what I said. It's damn hard getting a suicide through choke regardless of pyro presence if the team is ready for you. Playing pyro doesn't stop the team from working a flank pick however. And if he's on a flank rotation because you pressured, you can get your suicide through choke (if that's what you wanted) while that happened. So yes, pyro is good for defensively holding chokes, I'm not trying to deny that.

Please do. I understand that it will change the opponents playstyle, that you have to play more defensively to avoid trying to push into a pyro, but the only reason you've provided as to why "pyro caused the wins" is:

That bomb-in and back-cap combo though...

http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--a7P5jtCq--/c_fit,fl_progressive,q_80,w_636/198qj0pvzn5wqgif.gif

It's the only 6's map that caters to pyros and people are crying about it.

I don't even know of an image that sums up how stupid this whole discussion is.

Oh god you're all going to get mike to run his permaengie that he's been wanting to do for forever. Plz no.

Engineer best class

Please do it

Where's Cole when you need him?

Show us the way to Tinker Town