Nice
Valve and Competitive TF2
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omnificstephentf2please can we inform valve we dont want to play the public versions of, viaduct, barnblitz etc... only pro versions
valve should make an update replacing the stock maps with those maps instead. It'd make pubs a lot more enjoyable
I think that the reason they haven't done this yet is they don't want to confuse people who are new-ish. Like not complete noobs, but people who are just learning the maps. Although honestly if they really are going to implement all these changes then whenever they push the mm stuff would be the perfect time to push these maps.
Also the payment situation may get a little strange. Do they count as community maps with map stamps? What about maps where different people made different versions? Does a person making a few small changes that really fix the map deserve the same amount of credit as somebody who made a big change that didn't end up doing much to how the map plays?
[quote=omnific][quote=stephentf2]please can we inform valve we dont want to play the public versions of, viaduct, barnblitz etc... only pro versions[/quote]
valve should make an update replacing the stock maps with those maps instead. It'd make pubs a lot more enjoyable[/quote]
I think that the reason they haven't done this yet is they don't want to confuse people who are new-ish. Like not complete noobs, but people who are just learning the maps. Although honestly if they really are going to implement all these changes then whenever they push the mm stuff would be the perfect time to push these maps.
Also the payment situation may get a little strange. Do they count as community maps with map stamps? What about maps where different people made different versions? Does a person making a few small changes that really fix the map deserve the same amount of credit as somebody who made a big change that didn't end up doing much to how the map plays?
valve should make an update replacing the stock maps with those maps instead. It'd make pubs a lot more enjoyable[/quote]
I think that the reason they haven't done this yet is they don't want to confuse people who are new-ish. Like not complete noobs, but people who are just learning the maps. Although honestly if they really are going to implement all these changes then whenever they push the mm stuff would be the perfect time to push these maps.
Also the payment situation may get a little strange. Do they count as community maps with map stamps? What about maps where different people made different versions? Does a person making a few small changes that really fix the map deserve the same amount of credit as somebody who made a big change that didn't end up doing much to how the map plays?
first, i love that #42 will be the most listened to Fully Charged episode ever :D
2nd, for those who still claim TF2 is dead, go back to LoL or whatever your current fad is. the facts show that TF2 is just as much played today as it was 3 years ago: http://steamcharts.com/app/440#All
with esports becoming mainstream, many tf2 players would love to get more into competitive. i believe competitive is one of the primary reason why cs:go and dota2 became so popular. this could boost the numbers of players to the highest in the history of the game.
#sostoked
first, i love that #42 will be the most listened to Fully Charged episode ever :D
2nd, for those who still claim TF2 is dead, go back to LoL or whatever your current fad is. the facts show that TF2 is just as much played today as it was 3 years ago: http://steamcharts.com/app/440#All
with esports becoming mainstream, many tf2 players would love to get more into competitive. i believe competitive is one of the primary reason why cs:go and dota2 became so popular. this could boost the numbers of players to the highest in the history of the game.
#sostoked
2nd, for those who still claim TF2 is dead, go back to LoL or whatever your current fad is. the facts show that TF2 is just as much played today as it was 3 years ago: http://steamcharts.com/app/440#All
with esports becoming mainstream, many tf2 players would love to get more into competitive. i believe competitive is one of the primary reason why cs:go and dota2 became so popular. this could boost the numbers of players to the highest in the history of the game.
#sostoked
buddhapestfirst, i love that #42 will be the most listened to Fully Charged episode ever :D
2nd, for those who still claim TF2 is dead, go back to LoL or whatever your current fad is. the facts show that TF2 is just as much played today as it was 3 years ago: http://steamcharts.com/app/440#All
with esports becoming mainstream, many tf2 players would love to get more into competitive. i believe competitive is one of the primary reason why cs:go and dota2 became so popular. this could boost the numbers of players to the highest in the history of the game.
#sostoked
Steam users have pretty much doubled over those 3 years though...it's like if you made the same salary 10 years from now it would actually be like making less because of inflation.
Also, do you think that number correlates with the competitive community numbers?
[quote=buddhapest]first, i love that #42 will be the most listened to Fully Charged episode ever :D
2nd, for those who still claim TF2 is dead, go back to LoL or whatever your current fad is. the facts show that TF2 is just as much played today as it was 3 years ago: http://steamcharts.com/app/440#All
with esports becoming mainstream, many tf2 players would love to get more into competitive. i believe competitive is one of the primary reason why cs:go and dota2 became so popular. this could boost the numbers of players to the highest in the history of the game.
#sostoked[/quote]
Steam users have pretty much doubled over those 3 years though...it's like if you made the same salary 10 years from now it would actually be like making less because of inflation.
Also, do you think that number correlates with the competitive community numbers?
2nd, for those who still claim TF2 is dead, go back to LoL or whatever your current fad is. the facts show that TF2 is just as much played today as it was 3 years ago: http://steamcharts.com/app/440#All
with esports becoming mainstream, many tf2 players would love to get more into competitive. i believe competitive is one of the primary reason why cs:go and dota2 became so popular. this could boost the numbers of players to the highest in the history of the game.
#sostoked[/quote]
Steam users have pretty much doubled over those 3 years though...it's like if you made the same salary 10 years from now it would actually be like making less because of inflation.
Also, do you think that number correlates with the competitive community numbers?
Demarinibuddhapestfirst, i love that #42 will be the most listened to Fully Charged episode ever :D
2nd, for those who still claim TF2 is dead, go back to LoL or whatever your current fad is. the facts show that TF2 is just as much played today as it was 3 years ago: http://steamcharts.com/app/440#All
with esports becoming mainstream, many tf2 players would love to get more into competitive. i believe competitive is one of the primary reason why cs:go and dota2 became so popular. this could boost the numbers of players to the highest in the history of the game.
#sostoked
Steam users have pretty much doubled over those 3 years though...it's like if you made the same salary 10 years from now it would actually be like making less because of inflation.
not really? You're implying that people are just coming to steam blank slate and ready to play any game. Most of that tripling is Eastern Asians playing Doter, and they werent going to play an FPS anyway.
[quote=Demarini][quote=buddhapest]first, i love that #42 will be the most listened to Fully Charged episode ever :D
2nd, for those who still claim TF2 is dead, go back to LoL or whatever your current fad is. the facts show that TF2 is just as much played today as it was 3 years ago: http://steamcharts.com/app/440#All
with esports becoming mainstream, many tf2 players would love to get more into competitive. i believe competitive is one of the primary reason why cs:go and dota2 became so popular. this could boost the numbers of players to the highest in the history of the game.
#sostoked[/quote]
Steam users have pretty much doubled over those 3 years though...it's like if you made the same salary 10 years from now it would actually be like making less because of inflation.[/quote]
not really? You're implying that people are just coming to steam blank slate and ready to play any game. Most of that tripling is Eastern Asians playing Doter, and they werent going to play an FPS anyway.
2nd, for those who still claim TF2 is dead, go back to LoL or whatever your current fad is. the facts show that TF2 is just as much played today as it was 3 years ago: http://steamcharts.com/app/440#All
with esports becoming mainstream, many tf2 players would love to get more into competitive. i believe competitive is one of the primary reason why cs:go and dota2 became so popular. this could boost the numbers of players to the highest in the history of the game.
#sostoked[/quote]
Steam users have pretty much doubled over those 3 years though...it's like if you made the same salary 10 years from now it would actually be like making less because of inflation.[/quote]
not really? You're implying that people are just coming to steam blank slate and ready to play any game. Most of that tripling is Eastern Asians playing Doter, and they werent going to play an FPS anyway.
eeeDemarininot really? You're implying that people are just coming to steam blank slate and ready to play any game. Most of that tripling is Eastern Asians playing Doter, and they werent going to play an FPS anyway.buddhapestfirst, i love that #42 will be the most listened to Fully Charged episode ever :D
2nd, for those who still claim TF2 is dead, go back to LoL or whatever your current fad is. the facts show that TF2 is just as much played today as it was 3 years ago: http://steamcharts.com/app/440#All
with esports becoming mainstream, many tf2 players would love to get more into competitive. i believe competitive is one of the primary reason why cs:go and dota2 became so popular. this could boost the numbers of players to the highest in the history of the game.
#sostoked
Steam users have pretty much doubled over those 3 years though...it's like if you made the same salary 10 years from now it would actually be like making less because of inflation.
Does it matter where they're from? The point is the game has stagnated while the number of gamers have increased. It's not necessarily a bad sign, but don't look at it like it's a good sign.
[quote=eee][quote=Demarini][quote=buddhapest]first, i love that #42 will be the most listened to Fully Charged episode ever :D
2nd, for those who still claim TF2 is dead, go back to LoL or whatever your current fad is. the facts show that TF2 is just as much played today as it was 3 years ago: http://steamcharts.com/app/440#All
with esports becoming mainstream, many tf2 players would love to get more into competitive. i believe competitive is one of the primary reason why cs:go and dota2 became so popular. this could boost the numbers of players to the highest in the history of the game.
#sostoked[/quote]
Steam users have pretty much doubled over those 3 years though...it's like if you made the same salary 10 years from now it would actually be like making less because of inflation.[/quote]
not really? You're implying that people are just coming to steam blank slate and ready to play any game. Most of that tripling is Eastern Asians playing Doter, and they werent going to play an FPS anyway.[/quote]
Does it matter where they're from? The point is the game has stagnated while the number of gamers have increased. It's not necessarily a bad sign, but don't look at it like it's a good sign.
2nd, for those who still claim TF2 is dead, go back to LoL or whatever your current fad is. the facts show that TF2 is just as much played today as it was 3 years ago: http://steamcharts.com/app/440#All
with esports becoming mainstream, many tf2 players would love to get more into competitive. i believe competitive is one of the primary reason why cs:go and dota2 became so popular. this could boost the numbers of players to the highest in the history of the game.
#sostoked[/quote]
Steam users have pretty much doubled over those 3 years though...it's like if you made the same salary 10 years from now it would actually be like making less because of inflation.[/quote]
not really? You're implying that people are just coming to steam blank slate and ready to play any game. Most of that tripling is Eastern Asians playing Doter, and they werent going to play an FPS anyway.[/quote]
Does it matter where they're from? The point is the game has stagnated while the number of gamers have increased. It's not necessarily a bad sign, but don't look at it like it's a good sign.
DemariniDoes it matter where they're from? The point is the game has stagnated while the number of gamers have increased. It's not necessarily a bad sign, but don't look at it like it's a good sign.
I thought TF2 hit its peak unique users since 2012 a few months ago or something
[quote=Demarini]Does it matter where they're from? The point is the game has stagnated while the number of gamers have increased. It's not necessarily a bad sign, but don't look at it like it's a good sign.[/quote]
I thought TF2 hit its peak unique users since 2012 a few months ago or something
I thought TF2 hit its peak unique users since 2012 a few months ago or something
I feel like the argument demarini and other are having right now is pretty moot cause an announcement like this will make TF2 numbers explode. Will it stay, drop off, or continue to grow after that? Depends on what valve does.
I think it's safe to assume though TF2 as we know it is not going to be the same in the very very near future.
I feel like the argument demarini and other are having right now is pretty moot cause an announcement like this will make TF2 numbers explode. Will it stay, drop off, or continue to grow after that? Depends on what valve does.
I think it's safe to assume though TF2 as we know it is not going to be the same in the very very near future.
I think it's safe to assume though TF2 as we know it is not going to be the same in the very very near future.
ComangliaI feel like the argument demarini and other are having right now is pretty moot cause an announcement like this will make TF2 numbers explode. Will it stay, drop off, or continue to grow after that? Depends on what valve does.
I think it's safe to assume though TF2 as we know it is not going to be the same in the very very near future.
I agree with this. I've been talking to all my friends from school that do/have played the game casually and they're all hyped to try out MM with me. They've always said they wanted to play comp tf2 just for fun or to try it, but it's pretty hard to actually play and get a taste of what comp is really like if you don't have a team
[quote=Comanglia]I feel like the argument demarini and other are having right now is pretty moot cause an announcement like this will make TF2 numbers explode. Will it stay, drop off, or continue to grow after that? Depends on what valve does.
I think it's safe to assume though TF2 as we know it is not going to be the same in the very very near future.[/quote]
I agree with this. I've been talking to all my friends from school that do/have played the game casually and they're all hyped to try out MM with me. They've always said they wanted to play comp tf2 just for fun or to try it, but it's pretty hard to actually play and get a taste of what comp is really like if you don't have a team
I think it's safe to assume though TF2 as we know it is not going to be the same in the very very near future.[/quote]
I agree with this. I've been talking to all my friends from school that do/have played the game casually and they're all hyped to try out MM with me. They've always said they wanted to play comp tf2 just for fun or to try it, but it's pretty hard to actually play and get a taste of what comp is really like if you don't have a team
idk if Sal is alive or still plays video games but I feel like he deserves some credit. That trip with him and eXtine a few years ago was probably pretty instrumental in getting across some points. I hope that he can hear the news of this
idk if Sal is alive or still plays video games but I feel like he deserves some credit. That trip with him and eXtine a few years ago was probably pretty instrumental in getting across some points. I hope that he can hear the news of this
yeah i'm really happy our guys never gave up, it warms my heart to see people do something about what they're passionate about
yeah i'm really happy our guys never gave up, it warms my heart to see people do something about what they're passionate about
The potential is HUGE, but as Comanglia said it's very dependent on how it is implemented. I'm very excited for what Valve does no matter how they do it (unless it's mannpower only smh) but if they do it right we're looking at incredible new player numbers and possibly increased sponsor involvement, maybe at the levels it was in 2012 with eMg and coL or better (although this point also depends on how ESEA plays it). Hype!
The potential is HUGE, but as Comanglia said it's very dependent on how it is implemented. I'm very excited for what Valve does no matter how they do it (unless it's mannpower only smh) but if they do it right we're looking at incredible new player numbers and possibly increased sponsor involvement, maybe at the levels it was in 2012 with eMg and coL or better (although this point also depends on how ESEA plays it). Hype!
I'm scared and excited at the same time, I don't know if I'm gonna be able to make it till this Fully Charged episode on friday man, I'm freakin out
I'm scared and excited at the same time, I don't know if I'm gonna be able to make it till this Fully Charged episode on friday man, I'm freakin out
When I saw this pop up on twitter I couldn't believe it is happening. Still having a hard time realizing that it's real and not a joke and holy fuck AM I EXCITED THIS IS AMAZING.
When I saw this pop up on twitter I couldn't believe it is happening. Still having a hard time realizing that it's real and not a joke and holy fuck AM I EXCITED THIS IS AMAZING.
it's most likely gonna have a paid entry according to very reliable info-leaker testinglol of facepunch.
hopefully its a one-time fee and wont have anything to do with mannpower.
full quote here:
http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1398764&p=46691985#post46691985
it's most likely gonna have a paid entry according to very reliable info-leaker testinglol of facepunch.
hopefully its a one-time fee and wont have anything to do with mannpower.
full quote here:
http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1398764&p=46691985#post46691985
hopefully its a one-time fee and wont have anything to do with mannpower.
full quote here:
http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1398764&p=46691985#post46691985
it would make sense to make it have some sort of cost to prevent lmaobox idiots running rampant in comp matches, and I don't think valve would possibly think it'd be a good idea to do it like MvM with a ticket per match or whatever, that would be unreasonable
it would make sense to make it have some sort of cost to prevent lmaobox idiots running rampant in comp matches, and I don't think valve would possibly think it'd be a good idea to do it like MvM with a ticket per match or whatever, that would be unreasonable
ComangliaI feel like the argument demarini and other are having right now is pretty moot cause an announcement like this will make TF2 numbers explode. Will it stay, drop off, or continue to grow after that? Depends on what valve does.
I think it's safe to assume though TF2 as we know it is not going to be the same in the very very near future.
My point was in response to someone who claimed TF2 was alive because of the numbers. I was making a counter point. I never said whether the game would grow or not after MM was implemented, just that as it currently stands it is not growing, and because no growth is negative growth, it is dying.
[quote=Comanglia]I feel like the argument demarini and other are having right now is pretty moot cause an announcement like this will make TF2 numbers explode. Will it stay, drop off, or continue to grow after that? Depends on what valve does.
I think it's safe to assume though TF2 as we know it is not going to be the same in the very very near future.[/quote]
My point was in response to someone who claimed TF2 was alive because of the numbers. I was making a counter point. I never said whether the game would grow or not after MM was implemented, just that as it currently stands it is not growing, and because no growth is negative growth, it is dying.
I think it's safe to assume though TF2 as we know it is not going to be the same in the very very near future.[/quote]
My point was in response to someone who claimed TF2 was alive because of the numbers. I was making a counter point. I never said whether the game would grow or not after MM was implemented, just that as it currently stands it is not growing, and because no growth is negative growth, it is dying.
Be sure to abuse as many broken weapons as you can when this comes out so they can finally see how bad some unlocks are.
Be sure to abuse as many broken weapons as you can when this comes out so they can finally see how bad some unlocks are.
bootsit's most likely gonna have a paid entry according to very reliable info-leaker testinglol of facepunch.
hopefully its a one-time fee and wont have anything to do with mannpower.
full quote here:
http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1398764&p=46691985#post46691985
Honestly as long as it isn't some sort of ticket system (like that post implies :/) it would probably be fine. A 1 time fee would keep out some cheaters and prevent people who literally have never played from queueing into mm and fucking up the game
[quote=boots]it's most likely gonna have a paid entry according to very reliable info-leaker testinglol of facepunch.
hopefully its a one-time fee and wont have anything to do with mannpower.
full quote here:
http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1398764&p=46691985#post46691985[/quote]
Honestly as long as it isn't some sort of ticket system (like that post implies :/) it would probably be fine. A 1 time fee would keep out some cheaters and prevent people who literally have never played from queueing into mm and fucking up the game
hopefully its a one-time fee and wont have anything to do with mannpower.
full quote here:
http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1398764&p=46691985#post46691985[/quote]
Honestly as long as it isn't some sort of ticket system (like that post implies :/) it would probably be fine. A 1 time fee would keep out some cheaters and prevent people who literally have never played from queueing into mm and fucking up the game
you need a war journal to join the war and competitive ticket to play competitive. you also need to reach a level on steam to be able to play competitive. they might have changed these after all the negative input they got from suck journal but i doubt they did. its valve after all. atleast you get some rewards from war journal...
Hopefully if it is a ticket system it would be like a one time deal, not a ticket for every match.
I could see it being a ticket for a certain number of games though.
[quote]you need a war journal to join the war and competitive ticket to play competitive. you also need to reach a level on steam to be able to play competitive. they might have changed these after all the negative input they got from suck journal but i doubt they did. its valve after all. atleast you get some rewards from war journal...[/quote]
Hopefully if it is a ticket system it would be like a one time deal, not a ticket for every match.
I could see it being a ticket for a certain number of games though.
Hopefully if it is a ticket system it would be like a one time deal, not a ticket for every match.
I could see it being a ticket for a certain number of games though.
Frankly their limited account feature would take out most of the problem (if they used that as a requirement), no reason for them to implement a need to pay for comp mm unless they REALLY want to make it profitable. Considering that CS doesn't need payment I would actually be surprised if they added payment requirements, especially with the feedback from duck journals (hint: not good).
Frankly their limited account feature would take out most of the problem (if they used that as a requirement), no reason for them to implement a need to pay for comp mm unless they REALLY want to make it profitable. Considering that CS doesn't need payment I would actually be surprised if they added payment requirements, especially with the feedback from duck journals (hint: not good).
Dude this just made my day... no my week.. fuck my year man!!!!! Shoutout to everyone who talked to Valve about this, this wouldn't have been possible without YOUR help!
Dude this just made my day... no my week.. fuck my year man!!!!! Shoutout to everyone who talked to Valve about this, this wouldn't have been possible without YOUR help!
pl3xFrankly their limited account feature would take out most of the problem (if they used that as a requirement), no reason for them to implement a need to pay for comp mm unless they REALLY want to make it profitable. Considering that CS doesn't need payment I would actually be surprised if they added payment requirements, especially with the feedback from duck journals (hint: not good).
CS does require payment, you have to pay for the game
[quote=pl3x]Frankly their limited account feature would take out most of the problem (if they used that as a requirement), no reason for them to implement a need to pay for comp mm unless they REALLY want to make it profitable. Considering that CS doesn't need payment I would actually be surprised if they added payment requirements, especially with the feedback from duck journals (hint: not good).[/quote]
CS does require payment, you have to pay for the game
CS does require payment, you have to pay for the game
pl3xFrankly their limited account feature would take out most of the problem (if they used that as a requirement), no reason for them to implement a need to pay for comp mm unless they REALLY want to make it profitable. Considering that CS doesn't need payment I would actually be surprised if they added payment requirements, especially with the feedback from duck journals (hint: not good).
CS does require payment in that you have to buy the game
These war journal things might also be similar to CSGO operations or duck journals in that you don't necessarily need to buy them, they just let you track stats
[quote=pl3x]Frankly their limited account feature would take out most of the problem (if they used that as a requirement), no reason for them to implement a need to pay for comp mm unless they REALLY want to make it profitable. Considering that CS doesn't need payment I would actually be surprised if they added payment requirements, especially with the feedback from duck journals (hint: not good).[/quote]
CS [i]does[/i] require payment in that you have to buy the game
These war journal things might also be similar to CSGO operations or duck journals in that you don't necessarily need to buy them, they just let you track stats
CS [i]does[/i] require payment in that you have to buy the game
These war journal things might also be similar to CSGO operations or duck journals in that you don't necessarily need to buy them, they just let you track stats
bishbashbosh: they promised
bishbashbosh: 3 hard to build things
bishbashbosh: how long is it gonna take to implement
bishbashbosh: and who is gonna implement it
avlondgora: i cant see this working for awhile
bishbashbosh: because valve is a company
bishbashbosh: that does things when they want
bishbashbosh: and lest people do what they want
bishbashbosh: so if theres even one guy
avlondgora: I think most old comp players will get bored of it in a week after they are the top rank
bishbashbosh: on the tf2 team
avlondgora: and then itll just be for new players
bishbashbosh: and i dont even think theres 1
bishbashbosh: then how long is he gonna take to do this
avlondgora: well theres no huge holidays coming up
avlondgora: so im gonna guess sometimes this summer
bishbashbosh: no
bishbashbosh: theres no way
bishbashbosh: i dont see it happening beforre next year
bishbashbosh: the bug/QoL fixes might be this summer
bishbashbosh: maybe stream viewer added too
bishbashbosh: by late summer
bishbashbosh: but matchmaking?
bishbashbosh: thats gonna be
bishbashbosh: a long time
cool to see but whats the timescale for adding all this
[quote]bishbashbosh: they promised
bishbashbosh: 3 hard to build things
bishbashbosh: how long is it gonna take to implement
bishbashbosh: and who is gonna implement it
avlondgora: i cant see this working for awhile
bishbashbosh: because valve is a company
bishbashbosh: that does things when they want
bishbashbosh: and lest people do what they want
bishbashbosh: so if theres even one guy
avlondgora: I think most old comp players will get bored of it in a week after they are the top rank
bishbashbosh: on the tf2 team
avlondgora: and then itll just be for new players
bishbashbosh: and i dont even think theres 1
bishbashbosh: then how long is he gonna take to do this
avlondgora: well theres no huge holidays coming up
avlondgora: so im gonna guess sometimes this summer
bishbashbosh: no
bishbashbosh: theres no way
bishbashbosh: i dont see it happening beforre next year
bishbashbosh: the bug/QoL fixes might be this summer
bishbashbosh: maybe stream viewer added too
bishbashbosh: by late summer
bishbashbosh: but matchmaking?
bishbashbosh: thats gonna be
bishbashbosh: a long time[/quote]
cool to see but whats the timescale for adding all this
bishbashbosh: 3 hard to build things
bishbashbosh: how long is it gonna take to implement
bishbashbosh: and who is gonna implement it
avlondgora: i cant see this working for awhile
bishbashbosh: because valve is a company
bishbashbosh: that does things when they want
bishbashbosh: and lest people do what they want
bishbashbosh: so if theres even one guy
avlondgora: I think most old comp players will get bored of it in a week after they are the top rank
bishbashbosh: on the tf2 team
avlondgora: and then itll just be for new players
bishbashbosh: and i dont even think theres 1
bishbashbosh: then how long is he gonna take to do this
avlondgora: well theres no huge holidays coming up
avlondgora: so im gonna guess sometimes this summer
bishbashbosh: no
bishbashbosh: theres no way
bishbashbosh: i dont see it happening beforre next year
bishbashbosh: the bug/QoL fixes might be this summer
bishbashbosh: maybe stream viewer added too
bishbashbosh: by late summer
bishbashbosh: but matchmaking?
bishbashbosh: thats gonna be
bishbashbosh: a long time[/quote]
cool to see but whats the timescale for adding all this
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