I don't really think Heavy and Pyro destroy any harder at lower levels than Soldier does. Just less savory for some reason

It's not that they're stronger, it's that it's harder to kill them.

Reserving this post for a formal Quick-Fix post later this afternoon. Let's talk about the problems with quick fix, but try to discuss it away from the 6s standpoint as well, because there's more to weapons than its comp application.

For starters, why can you cap with its insane heal rate? You can't get juggled off a point, and unless some insane dps is happening point-blank you're going to survive and cap for free basically. This mostly applies to last points where the point can be reached through a fast route

heavy is pretty much objectively better than soldier if the soldier isnt rjumping, which pubbies literally can't do obv

QF is dumb way more for its absurd tankiness than any small idiosyncrasies with the weapon, altho the capping thing is dumb. Phlog has the same problem and it really should just beremoved :((

Heavy already dominates at low levels in the current competitive scene (both in 6s and in HL). Most sub silver HL teams in UGC focus the majority of their heals on their heavy at the expense of heals to the scout. This is because mechanically, heavy is very easy (the 'skill' required to play it effectively at higher levels has almost nothing to do with the mechanics of heavy and everything to do with positioning, timing, and general decision making). I doubt valve will care if Heavy is OP at low ranks, so long as it is more balanced at higher ranks (even just in certain situations).

As for valve buffing classes because the meta uses them as specialists rather than generalists. It is possible, but I was encouraged by the fact that they wanted to model their match making around existing formats. I think the devs at valve are intelligent enough to understand that in a competitive format not every class is going to see equal use and that alone does not mean there is a balance issue. My hope is that they will look at the data they collect intelligently to consider the effectiveness/balance of a class or weapon in regards to the intended purpose of that class or weapon.

Final note, while it is interesting to read all of the change suggestions in this thread. I agree with the first post that suggesting changes is not the way to help valve balance weapons. Maybe, as the dialogue between devs and comp players continues that will be possible, but right now it would be more effective to create a comprehensive list of core problems with weapons WITHOUT suggesting possible fixes to those weapons.

I tried to make it as clear as possible to discuss problems, and that suggestions are optional. Obviously seeing changes the way we present it won't be the solution persay, but this thread wouldn't be active without suggestions/solutions.

the core reason for this thread is to present problems we face with unlocks

but the problem with the whip is not the soldier himself. It's the fact that a heavy with the gru while being whipped moves as fast as a scout. You need to nerf the effective time, how often you can whip someone for the bonus (perhaps make it a reward for doing damage) or something along those lines. You just have to do it without fucking up highlander

Just a quick note on disciplinary action and highlander, the weapon forces you to use it on both teams in order to not lose in midfight. What team genuinely does finewithout whip at a midfight while the other team uses it?

EDIT just thought of a solution, make the gloves of running urgently give the whip effect instead of just being a speed boost

id like to see a baby faces blaster that has a constantly declining speed boost.

if you dont continue doing damage rapidly, you go back to slow-mo in like 5 seconds.

There are a few instances where not running the whip is actually more viable. A perfect example is process. If your soldier is consistent with the fast rollout you can deny the health kit (and potentially kill the enemy demo). That said, this only really applies to maps where the soldier has the option of a 'fast rollout' that offers some immediate use that can offset the fact that the rest of your team will be a second or 2 slower to mid. Maps without an option like that, it remains a must use so long as the other team is running it.

Holy shit that's such a good idea. A slow decline, like reverse soda popper boost, and dealing damage gains boost. That sounds so balanced

#100
The point being, weapons shouldn't have a niche where "If the enemy is using it, I should too." from a casual standpoint, why do experienced, item-abounding users beat my team to middle? Because we don't have the same unlocks as them. Same can apply to escape plan really

Sure. Here's a list of every banned weapon in ESEA that could be reasonably tweaked and allowed. Remember, I'm not saying any of these should be unbanned as they currently stand, just that they could be modified to the point that they're each a sidegrade that doesn't alter the game in ways 6v6 wouldn't like. Entries with a question mark are ones that might actually be possible to unban as they currently stand, because they've either been tweaked or nerfed and aren't as broken anymore.

Scout

• Baby Face's Blaster
  
• Soda Popper
  
• Flying Guillotine
  
• Pretty Boy's Pocket Pistol
  
• The Atomizer
  
• Wrap Assassin

Soldier

• Beggar's Bazooka
  
• Liberty Launcher?
  
• Battalion's Backup
  
• Reserve Shooter
  
• Disciplinary Action

Pyro

• Rainblower (with new server cvar to disable pyrovision)
  
• Powerjack
  
• Lollichop (with new server cvar to disable pyrovision) (banned in all other 6s but not ESEA?)

Demo

• Ali Baba's Wee Booties
  
• Bootlegger
  
• Loch-n-Load
  
• Persian Persuader
  
• Ullapool Caber

Heavy

• Brass Beast
  
• Natascha
  
• Dalokohs Bar
  
• Sandvich

Engie

• Frontier Justice
  
• Pomson 6000
  
• Widowmaker
  
• Short Circuit
  
• Gunslinger/Minisentry

Medic

• Quick-Fix
  
• Vaccinator
  
• Solemn Vow

Sniper

• Sydney Sleeper
  
• Cleaner's Carbine
  
• Darwin's Danger Shield
  
• Jarate

Spy

• Enforcer
  
• Spy-cicle

I know you're not saying this for 6s but

speed boosted heavy and medic to mid

oh god

Thought of a change for the soda popper hype:

+when you run, you fill a meter that gives you extra jumps. you can use as many as you want in succession, but each one drains the meter (like a combination of Vaccinator and BFB meters)
-no built in double jump

So basically you will have the same playstyle of having huge spurts of mobility, but the weapon is now both more reliable and less annoying to play against, since scouts couldn't just avoid every rocket for 10 full seconds. At the same time, it now has an actual downside that after a fight you are much more helpless, and therefore cannot be as aggressive.

Wondering how many jumps should be available at maximum meter, and how quickly it should fill. I was thinking 6 maximum jumps, and fill in around 8 seconds.

Using the list yttrium made:

Scout

• Baby Face's Blaster: downside of reduced speed is too easily negated by the boost. Maximum boost offers too large an increase to mobility. The boost reduction is negligible and easily overcome again.
  
• Soda Popper: +reload glitch allows fast rate of fire and more dps than stock which negates the only drawback. Increased mobility from jumps increases survivability in a fight too much. Boost is charged by running which does not require additional effort on the part of the scout.
  
• Flying Guillotine: (in my opinion) the burst damage from use in conjunction with the sandman stun is too high. Stats from use without the sandman seem alright to me (but admittedly I rarely play with or against this weapon when it is used alone)
  
• Pretty Boy's Pocket Pistol: Increased vulnerability to fire is not commonly applied, the scout is naturally more able to avoid potential sources of fire damage. Increased health gives the scout a massive advantage in fights/1v1s. I don't think the lack of fall damage is all that broken. No other serious drawbacks compared with stock pistol.
  
• The Atomizer: additional jumps on demand greatly enhance mobility and survivability. The cost to health is either not high enough, or easily overcome through intelligent play (or the use of other unlocks). This weapon seems more balanced than others on this list.
  
• Wrap Assassin: I do not know of a use/glitch that would make this weapon overpowered, damage reduction makes it feel severely underpowered (but again I rarely use it, or play against it, so I could be wrong).

Soldier

• Beggar's Bazooka: Rate of reload allows it to match/surpass the fire rate of stock. Never in a situation "without rockets loaded". Beyond this, the burst potential is very high, the inconsistency to aim is negligible and easily accounted for through play style adjustments. No other particularly relevant drawbacks.
  
• Liberty Launcher?: Feels fine as is to me. I differ to the judgement of other soldier mains though.
  
• Battalion's Backup: Buff feels acceptable, not certain how 'spammable' the buff is in practice though - potentially an area of issue. The increase health coupled with the increased resistances when the buff is used give massive advantages to fights/bombs/1v1s. No obvious downsides beyond the lack of shotgun/gunboats. This weapon feels more balanced that others on this list.
  
• Reserve Shooter: Clip is not reduced enough to noticeably affect gameplay - only really noticeable for players who have difficulty with ammo management. Detection for minicrits has always been buggy, allowing for increased damage evening against enemies not obviously 'in the air'. No other meaningful downsides.
  
• Disciplinary Action: Utility, specifically around mid fight timing, forces a team to run it or risk losing mid. Beyond mid fights I don't think it is overpowered, maybe in certain transition situations (or for making other classes more viable in transition). No serious drawbacks compared to stock.

Pyro

• Rainblower (with new server cvar to disable pyrovision): as long as glitches involving pyro vision aren't an issue this probably doesn't require changes. I'd love to see someone make a strat specifically around the AoE of the taunt kill.
  
• Powerjack: Health on Kill and increased movement speed. Health on kill balanced by the increased damage vulnerability (might need to tweak some of the values), movement can be used in transition without risk of any drawbacks. If used for the utility no drawbacks when compared to stock.
  
• Lollichop (with new server cvar to disable pyrovision) (banned in all other 6s but not ESEA?): Same as Rainblower.

Demo

• Ali Baba's Wee Booties
  
• Bootlegger
  
• Loch-n-Load
  
• Persian Persuader
  
• Ullapool Caber: maybe it is because of my time in HL, but this weapon doesn't bother me. Maybe the negatives do not offset the potential to burst in a small AoE. Point blank burst damage might be too high (though you are trading your demo for a low change of killing their medic, provided their medic is paying attention)

Heavy

• Brass Beast: In a defensive setting the movement penalty is negligible and the damage increase is effectively free damage. No other meaningful drawbacks.
  
• Natascha: I actually don't mind the movement penalty. Value tweaks around this and damage reduction. Current damage reduction is easily negated by coordinated play.
  
• Dalokohs Bar: Free, temporary health. Temporary nature is completely removed when the item is used only for defense. No real drawbacks (besides lack of alternative secondaries... but heavies rarely use their secondaries on defense). Loadout can be changed after the effect has worn off or the defense is over.
  
• Sandvich: An additional source of health on demand. Hard counter to any trade/suicide play that only damages the medic. Health can be given to any class, or used to self heal to full health. When used with good positioning or team support the temporary vulnerability is negated

Engie

• Frontier Justice: Free Crits that do not require a change in gameplay. Drawbacks are negligible in competitive play.
  
• Pomson 6000: Drains Uber/Cloak. Player Penetration. Damage potential. Limitless ammo. (what where the drawbacks of this weapon again?!)
  
• Widowmaker: Infinite clip provided that you can aim.
  
• Short Circuit: Rate of Fire and ammo cost remove any skill required to effectively use the weapon. Completely shuts down and class that uses projectiles. When used in coordination with team play it is not feasible to focus down the engie with secondaries while ignoring the rest of the enemy team.
  
• Gunslinger/Minisentry: Denies mobility of the other team (damage denies scouts, knock back in the air denies explosive jumps). Does not require that the engie 'watch' his gun allowing him to do other things for his team. Low build cost makes it spam-able. Range and FoV mean that outside of full nests it is categorically better than stock sentries.

Medic

• Quick-Fix: The weapon encourages very passive play. Heal rate is a direct counter to uber that also builds faster. In 6v6 there are not enough sources of damage to focus down the medic/heal target effectively. Lack of knock back and capping while charge is active is easily abused when focusing on objectives.
  
• Vaccinator: Lack of varied damage types in 6s greatly reduces current drawbacks (though the decreased heal rate is still fairly significant). With intelligent play greatly nullifies 50% or more of the incoming damage without a need to switch types.
  
• Solemn Vow: Direct upgrade from stock (that said, so is the uber saw in most cases). This weapon feels far more balanced than others on the list.

Sniper

• Sydney Sleeper: rewards less skilled play. When used in combination with team play makes it very easy to get high value picks. Biggest issue is that it allows for equivalent impact for less skill.
  
• Cleaner's Carbine: (nearly) free crits. drawbacks are negligible in competitive play (?). No other meaningful drawbacks in a competitive setting
  
• Darwin's Danger Shield: Combination of health and damage resistance negates low charge head shots. Massive advantage in SvS fights. No meaningful drawbacks.
  
• Jarate: Free mini crits for the entire team. Spy is not as viable, team support negates survivability cost

Spy

• Enforcer: 2 shots most weak classes. No meaningful drawbacks. Rewards low skill play.
  
• Spy-cicle: Is this weapon broken in 6s? Fire immunity removes a hard counter at low cost (given viability of various revolvers). Greatly increases survivability of spy. Rewards low skill play.

They nerfed heavy a while ago because it was overpowered in pubs, at high levels in highlander, heavy was balanced. Now, as a result of the nerf, heavy in high levels of hl is under-powered. Heavys do well at low levels because they have high health, not because of their dmg. Valve nerfed an aspect of the class that did not have an impact on low level play, therefore, heavy is still strong. However the nerf hurt the class for high level highlander.

Baby Face's Blaster

I like this option alot^

Soda Popper
Fix the +reload glitch
lower the reload speed by about 0.1s - 0.2s
No Fall Damage
make the hype by a small speed boost (+10% ?) and higher jump (+25%) rather than the 6 jumps
use other stats

Pretty Boy's Pocket Pistol (should be completely rethought breaks the fundamentals of item guidelines Scout primary weakness is his low HP and shouldn't be given more without a significant tradeoff)
NEW STATS
+40% Fire Speed
+10% Reload Speed
-50% Clip Size
-33% Ammo Pool

Goal I had in mind would be to make the pocket pistol a true clean up sidearm, but with limited capacity in taking down heavier or full hp targets.

The Back Scatter
Remove the accuracy penalty, at first. After that not sure.
use other stats

Flying Guillotine
Remove the Crit stunned enemies stat
after that balancing this weapon is hard cause it's not really useful after that unless you increase the recharge speed, but then you run into an issue that enemy players could be subjected to permanently bleeding. Unless you make the bleed timer not reset when hit by the guillotine which I have no idea is that's plausible.

The Atomizer
This weapons is only sparingly used in HL, it provides an excellent utility to scout but with the cost of taking damage. Also greatly depreciates scouts ability to build uber. Either a nerf or buff to this weapon would break it or make it worthless.

Wrap Assassin
Remove bleed effect
Add Mark for Death (about 5s or similar to the GRU or Rescue Ranger after switching weapons duration)
use other stats

Other weapons that are rarely used.

Short Stop
Remove Ammo Pool share with pistols
use other stats

Bonk!
This weapon is basically meaningless in a competitive setting as small as 6vs6 and is still rarely used in HL and pubs. Needs to be rethought

Crit a Cola
readd Scout takes mini-crits
+15% movement speed (currently 25%)
use other stats

Sun on a Stick
add
-66% Afterburn duration

Fan O'War (Weapon needs a rework or something interesting applied to it)
Possible New stats
-90% Damage
+20% from health pack pickups

Idk about this one, but honestly this weapon is really dumb as it is

Sandman
I'd reduce the stun duration by 25% accross the board and no 100% stuns.

Weapons that are fine right now
Force a Nature (might need a very small buff)
Mad Milk
Boston Basher
Candy Cane (possibly a small reduction on explosive vulnerability)
Winger

-edit-
updated my engi post here http://teamfortress.tv/post/425997/weapon-balance-discussion

just some points about a few weapons. everything is just technical, nothing here is opinion

does 150 damage to anyone "stunned". explosive knockback, natascha slow, and airblast count as being stunned. scouts can toss the cleaver and 1shot a medic who got airblasted or knocked into the air.

i believe the main issue here is that a soldier who spams can completely negate a kritz uber, since it makes those affected immune to crits. if it's a 5v6 situation, with 6 defending last and the 5 missing their medic, and they've built a Backup with spam damage, if the defending team has a kritz uber, the offensive team can just push in with the backup popped and the uber is negated, and with 30% resistance, they'll probably win the fight anyway unless their DM is shit. if it's a stock uber, the resistance is still really strong and they might win anyway.

competitive 6s tends to ban any weapons that, when used, force the other team to either run them or be at a disadvantage. this is why the vitasaw is banned.

the main argument against the caber is that it can be crit boosted

if the duration/intensity falloff was a bit more aggressive, i think this would be okay

generally banned in 6s because it can heal a med. if you couldn't drop it as often or could only drop it once, or if it didn't heal as much, i think it would be accepted more often

was not aware that so many things counted as "stunned" definitely needs more fixing then.

The rest of the stuff, good points, and pretty much all of it I already knew and agree with. I was just trying to comment generally about what aspects of the weapons felt the most broken to me while remaining solution agnostic.

Surprisingly that was more difficult to do than I expected. So much of our language surrounding currently overpower weapons centers around how we believe that they could be fixed. To the point where a lot of the core issues with the weapons are only ever described by ways that we would go about changing them.

I can understand why valve has always resisted suggestions for weapon improvements/fixes. It is easy to convince yourself that you know what is actually broken about a weapon, and that you have a real solution to that problem, and completely miss the mark.

Not sure why you got downvoted, you're blatantly right. There are a few instances where it really is a binary thing (Caber, Pomson), but in most cases, it's possible to detach solutions from the original problem, and it should always be done.

Rebalancing isn't done by just changing it to what sounds cool. Rebalancing is done by pointing out an unbiased problematic stat and coming up with a bunch of solutions to fix it, playtesting those, and then picking the best one. There are a lot of possible solutions to the BFB in this thread and I love almost every single one of them. Valve should reopen the Beta and make BFB1, BFB2, and BFB3 and see how they work out, similar to the Equalizer (Beta Equalizer 1&2, which both got accepted, becoming the Equalizer and Escape Plan).

theres so many nerd weapon books in here

You guys need to tone down on the usage of the word "free" when discussing balance. Ditto "no downsides". These are almost always hyperbole

SORRY FOR THE DELAY SHOUTOUTS TO LUXOR FOR DOING QUICK FIX SCIENCE WITH ME

The Quick-Fix

ÜberCharge increases healing by 300% and grants immunity to movement-impairing effects
+40% heal rate
+25% ÜberCharge rate
50% max overheal
Move at the speed of any faster heal target.

Forgive my math if this is wrong.

Quick-Fix heals all classes (before healrate modifiers such as other heal beams, weapons) at approximately 33.6 health per second, or 168 HP in 5 seconds, on recently damaged parties. This amount triples per second if the heal target has crit-heals (hasn't taken damage in the last 15 seconds), effectively full-healing a soldier from 10 HP to 250 HP (125% health, buffed) in 2.381 seconds if he received no damage in the last 15 seconds. This allows for, as expected, a quick fix when healing, with the only expense being a slightly modified ubercharge and lower maximum health.

Additionally, the Quick-Fix Ubercharge acts in essence as a consistent crit-heal, meaning those numbers above apply for the actual ubers. Full health from barely-living in 2.381 seconds. Tankier classes such as the Heavy can remain nearly invulnerable to damage amounts unless they exceed 100.8 damage per second. To supersede this heal rate, one is required to deal 147.675 damage per second, assuming you were able to stay alive against a heavy for 8 seconds straight.

This heal rate while ubered isn't the issue. The issue is having this insane heal rate and being able to capture points. This has been one of the pressing technical issues of this weapon. Let's assume a team unwittingly ignores a capture point, say gullywash last, and a quick-fix ubering combo sneaks through water and lands on the point. The enemy team has to not only stop the point from capping, but do so by killing a 375 health heavy healing back 100.8 health per second. You won't even knock the heavy into the red before the cap is completed at x2 rate.

Another great mechanic in this game is the ability to juggle your opponent via explosives or airblast, but a quick-fix uber denies this with its movement impairing nullification. This nullification effectively negates:

Natascha Slowdown
Airblast
Explosive Knockback
Airborne Knockback from damage sources

Quick-Fix's capabilities coupled with no movement impairments can make capturing spire-like points (Gravelpit C, Badlands Spire) infinitely easier unless unprecedented defensive options are deployed, such as high damage from sentries, heavies and 3-5 sticky bombs detonated at once. I'll note that these classes are respectively listed under the Defense squadron in TF2's class selection menu. However, these capture points can make it difficult to deliver such a high amount of DPS, given the control point's position in accordance with the map.

One other interesting mechanic of the Quick-Fix is the ability to move at the speed of a faster heal target, and also gain the ability to explosive-jump with a respective explosive-jumping class. From a short amount of science done, I deduced that the medic's momentum in hu/s is added to the additional momentum given by the explosive class, thereby allowing a medic to exceed the distance given by his heal target. Additionally, a medic can follow a scout buddy from the last control point on badlands to the enemy's control point in under 28 seconds (21 seconds with a Baby Face's Blaster maximum boosted scout, no crit-a-cola, no whip effect).

Other movement options can allow a medic and a soldier/demo pocket to survive a last push after wiping the enemy team and reach the middle point before the respawns come in (I'm being a little overzealous on the capabilities here, but there is quite a bit a medic can do with the extra movement power granted by these faster classes, and each map varies in how quickly a combo can reach a forward spawn of the enemy team).

Compared to stock Medi Gun, the Quick-Fix heals 40% faster (+9.6 health/s, before modifiers). Later tonight I'll include the results of a heal-by-fight test where a Medi Gun + Class fight a Quick-Fix + Class to see the results in a pure DPS setting.

More science will appear tonight.

Suggestions

-Remove the ability to capture while ubercharged with the heal rate

If you have any other suggestions or problems this weapon rises, post it and I'll add it.

Just wanted to let people know Valve actually did use this thread for a few of their Gun Mettle update weapon changes.

2 Examples

Goal I have in mind for the Jag (since it's a pretty bland weapon already) Make full sentry builds more viable in aggressive scenarios without improving the defensive capability engineer is already really good at. The -15HP is to force the engineer to rely more on his buildings rather than his DM ability.

Valve's Patch Notes for The Jag

Jag
With the change to Base Construction boost, Jag bonus has improved. 30% increase of 1.5x makes a total of 1.95x (total of 2.95x when base speed is added)
Added +15% swing speed.
Added 20% repair penalty. Repairs will give up to 80hp per swing instead 100hp per swing.

Valve Patch Notes

Dalokoh's Bar
Now has 10 second cool down on use
Can now overheal up to 400hp
Can be thrown (alt-fire) as a small medkit for other players to use

sure their's a few more, but this was more about the fact VALVE ACTUALLY LISTENED

this is what we have all been waiting for.
its here.
anything is possible