there are a few sightlines with the new area on the right that should be changed imo, makes pushing in through the right basically impossible without popping early
http://imgur.com/mS6PMfW - you can shoot over the boxes here
http://imgur.com/AVpK9l0 - this is from the spawn point
http://imgur.com/LognKx6 - this is another sightline that the defending team can do with a scout sitting behind the box
other than that I love the new changes, hopefully these can be fixed before the map is played in esea/etf2l

This map is annoyingly awful. Why? Because you constantly use the clip brush without any reason for players to not be able to get somewhere. I understand map balance and needing to keep people out of places - but if I can see it, I should be able to get there. I know that there needs to be some exceptions because demojumping etc, but here's a few absolutely stupid places that have no reason to exist.

http://puu.sh/iiDEq/44a39012ab.jpg

Why can I not get there? Why is it not just a wall?

http://puu.sh/iiDHJ/45450ba0d8.jpg

Map is glitched in this one, but whatever. You know where I am talking about. Why is this not just a wall? Or make the fence taller, so it's a mesh covering or something that covers the entire thing.

http://puu.sh/iiDMv/2193ce2ca4.jpg

On the right and left side of this picture. There's again no reason for those to be there. If you want decoration, fill it up more, or move it closer to the wall. It's stupid to have random things that do nothing but look like they should do something.

http://puu.sh/iiExQ/85828b1f05.jpg

All of this is garbage

awesome first post, its aesthetics. it makes sense. they would be dumb hiding spots without it. and with a wall it would lose all its soul.

They do still need to have fences or something so it's clear that the player can't go there. Especially the one in market, it looks so much like you can go there.

Once you play the map more than 3 times it's painfully obvious where you can and can't go. I don't think it needs changes. HOWEVER THE SNIPER SIGHTLINES FROM LAST YOU CREATED WITH THE MOST RECENT UPDATE....

While you're correct, it's still bad map design and even simple things like this become barriers for entry for new players. Part of making competitive inviting is making maps easy to understand, and these spots are downright unintuitive and contradict everything else in every other map.

Except Junction, fuck that noise.

All sightlines mentioned in this thread with references to where they point (for example: the ones Mangachu posted) are and will be fixed for RC8/next version. I realize that these are not the funnest thing to play with on RC7 but rest assured they're going to be removed/fixed next update.

The only pair of those inlet clipping spots I am planning to fix are the two on choke, since sticky traps in them are pretty much invisible to players pushing in. The rest, not so much of a big deal. Market isn't as bad as you'd think, most new players to the map learn you can't get up there pretty instantaneously - even in pubs.

Remember to post pictures of any sightline/issue that has not yet been mentioned in this thread. I'm not perfect, I can't predict everything that's currently wrong with the map (although I sure am trying).

Been playing a lot more sunshine lately and have a couple suggestions / fixes.

As a roamer, I noticed there's a little neat skip jump that could be made easier if u removed the ledges of the roof

Also its sunshine week in etf2l, we just played etf2l official and it was atrocious to play, granted my team barely practised sunshine so we didn't really have the best coordination but this sentry spot should seriously get fixed, we were literally trying to push last for 15 mins against it, it seems way too OP, it has full vision of the point, it can't be spammed from any angle easily unless you uber in from top and even then you have to uber in very early if they hold with a soldier on the fence and you cant spam from left either since its such a tight choke where the demo is holding with stickies.

Probably the easiest way to fix this wouild be to remove those crates, or open the entries a bit more on the left or right so you can have a better view of that area and spam it a bit more freely

roamer does not need a buff on this map. this map is already very soldier-friendly (lots of highground, lots of jumps, lots of corners/chokes, lots of props and walls to get in the way of the other players that don't effect you).

maybe that's why it was atrocious to play and it has nothing to do with the map itself.

I posted this reply on etf2l first but this thread seems more active so...

After seeing this video from sideshow (http://plays.tv/video/55805fbde61116fed1) i tried putting a teleporter myself there and it did the same thing. It seems like the whole like area doesn’t work for a teleporter since whenever somebody enters it the exit just destroys itself.

Tried it on both sides and the exit still exploded too.

i fucking hate ledges like that, although this one is easy enough to just jump under that it's not the end of the world, especially on a soldier-centric map like this one.
That being said, I do agree that it should be removed, since it's just really obnoxious, and opens up second for more than one good bomb (the choke rampslide jump is fun but super predictable).

http://plays.tv/video/55834825a0213ed5e3

STEAL MY VIDEO WHY DONT YOU TIMTUM???

The ledge was just a small suggestion, I don't really care that much, but would be cool to have more than one effective way of bombing second, its a bit of an obnoxious ledge and it doesn't server any other purpose if not aesthetic.

As for the sentry spot, regardless of my team inability to push last, it's still an obvious overpowered sentry spot. I am not aware of any other map that has such a good protected sentry spot with full vision of the point. Just remove the boxes and its fixed, literally doesn't affect any other class, it's just a dumb spot that has way too much cover

:3

I have absolutely no idea why that's happening. That was in no way on purpose and if it's a glitch with the engine, it's one I've never encountered before. If anyone could clue me in to why that's happening (especially in some of those areas that should absolutely have enough space to tele through) please do. I'm going to have to try to dig around for an answer.

I found the issue. It will be fixed for RC8. Apparently it's a as-of-before-now undocumented engine bug.

having played this map a fair bit now i really like it but i do feel like its really hard to push valley / flower shop due to you always being at a height disadvantage no matter which way you push from not sure if this is really hard to push by design or an accidental problem either way maybe something to look at

the last really needs work, the sightlines from behind the boxes on last through the double doors to the shutter is so powerful
i think the map would be better if you filled in this whole tiled area and put the boxes & barrels back like it was in rc5

maybe you could change the double door frame into just one as well, that just seems awkward

That same issue with the sentry happened to my team too. Ten full minutes we couldn't push, even though we were rolling them hard. We eventually said fuck it and I offclassed to Heavy so the med and I could uber in from the top.

It was a little ridiculous.

Alright, sunshine week is over for E$EA so I have some suggestions. First I want to mention that we got back capped once in all of the games we played and it was not because we were pushing out of last, so that transition between 1 / 2 is fine. The real issue with the map is how easy it is to hold last, we held a lot more than we should have on that last but we also failed pushes into last a lot more often than we should have. Stark's suggestion about filling in the tiled area is actually a really good idea and it's one I had thought about, I would also think about removing secret as I survived being ubered into while playing top left (to force the uber early) by running into the secret and just bouncing players / being ignored because I was not really an optimal target. As a pocket, a lot of the issues I discovered were related to how ubers / pushes handled and the biggest annoyance was actually just getting into last. The top left and top right chokes are actually really small and really short which makes it difficult to get through them without being spammed into oblivion (and therefore getting a bad uber off) or without getting forced by a soldier playing in a spot with very little risk associated with it.

Once you got into the point, it was very difficult to have an effective uber. Typically, when you're pushing into last on even ubers you want to use your uber to force the uber, and then kill the sentry / heavy and then make space for your team to move in. The last's size contributed to making this difficult but this really wasn't an issue for the same reason it's not an issue on snakewater or process. The real issue I had with sunshine last was how safe it was to hold near spawn. When you ubered in, you could typically get the sentry with soldier or demo spam but while you were doing that the medic and demo would run away, but not always by running away from the uber, typically the demo backed into spawn and, in fact, most damaged players would simply back into spawn to get resup. On most maps (gully, snake, process) you punish backing into spawn by standing on the point but because the spawn is so close to the point and because the point caps so slow it would be hard to do that. So, on a typical uber push you could kill the sentry (which there would almost always be because there were way too many 1/2 stalemates which all lasted way too long) and then maybe damaged players enough to force them into spawn and maybe force the uber which all culminated in basically 6 v 6 (possibly the pushing team having a sniper and the defending team having a heavy which made it more difficult) over a barely captured point and very healthy defending team.

I would say pushing out of last is about as difficult as pushing out onto snakewater but I don't really think that's so bad as you can typically countersack / force ubers if you play correctly.

TL;DR last is too hard to push because the spawn is too close to the point and/or the point caps too slow, as a result of the difficulty of pushing last (and to an extent pushing out of last -> pushing uphill) and of the many many small hard to push through chokes that really need to be examined / redesigned in some manner last would often stalemate out resulting in very slow gameplay (in our match vs MLX BLUE we sat on last for 20 minutes or so because it was so easy to defend but not easy enough to push out)

pls spend some more time on optimization, this map is the worst on performance out of whole etf2l map pool.

would love to see how a singular door frame would work, but with a lot of small chokes already it would seem, weird. imo as a open player, it felt too hard to forward hold at your last, you kinda had to just stand back, and eat spam. But thats just my opinion.

yeah that's also a big problem, its the only map that gives me fps drops

so i tried using the "broken" gun spot people are talking about in a lobby today and it got taken out 5 seconds in to the enemy teams uber.

if your team is struggling taking that out you need some serious help.

literally the only issue with this map for me is how laggy it can get on my toaster pc. looks and plays great imo, phi.

There's your problem... Come on man, you say it was my team fault (which I admitted we didn't practised as we should have) and then you try it in a lobby to prove your point???

This was in a High official match (equivalent to ESEA IM) and obviously we weren't playing a lobby with some random scrubs.

They always held the same way, soldier on the fence on top right, sentry on that spot, heavy and medic behind the point and demo/pocket locking down left side. (both scouts offclassing)

We tried coordinating spam and if we tried to spam it from the left the demo had everything stickied with the double door shutter (which is unnecessary imo) and pocket soldier locking it down with spam as well making it impossible from the left. When we tried under they were able to rotate and force us really early which would leave us very little margin to destroy sentry with uber since it was on the other side of the point, when we tried right side the soldier was holding on top of the fence and you had to use uber really early and then the heavy-medic combo kited us so we had to opt either go for them or for the sentry.

Point is, that sentry spot has too much cover, if they force you early you're fucked because last is so large you don't have margin to both destroy the sentry and force them.

Basically, the issue isn't necessarily just the sentry spot. The stalemate comes up when you have the sentry AND team that recognizes the sentry is important and tries to defend it. Specifically, the soldier holding above the sentry, plus the sentry.

I think one of the worst parts is that because of its placement, it only can get shot when you're really trying to take it down, so the engie doesn't have to hang by the sentry to keep repairing it from spam. If he did, he would be useless besides keeping it up a few seconds longer when the uber comes in to take it out (if it comes in), which, when the Rescue Ranger is banned, means almost nothing.

Because of this, a Scout can just go Engie on last, build a sentry there, have his soldier buddy camp above it, and then walk around like a beefier Scout, getting a free sentry gun and only losing a little speed which isn't that big of a deal when holding on a last like this.

tldr remove the crates so we can spam the sentry. It'll mean the sentry can go down without needing to uber against it, it'll mean the soldier above isn't as strong because he can't force early ubers if the uber isn't coming from there, and it means you don't get the sentry for free because your engie needs to stay by it. It's a win win win.

More than 50% through an uber isn't particularly fast

Nothing in tf2 is OP if your team doesn't know how to play around it (and we're talking about a team in a lobby here...)

Now that pretty much everyone has played it, what do people think should be done about the last, if anything? Pushing out doesn't seem to be worse than maps like Snakewater or Badlands, and it really seems like pushing last is the last major problem people have with this map. I don't have any specific suggestions right now, although it does seem way too easy to simply back into spawn as the defenders. I'm just trying to see if we can get a discussion going about this map, now that people have gotten to play the current version in officials.

I think the problem is really getting in through the choke points. Once you're in if you have a decent uber you can play the point easily, play high ground easily etc. So the layout of last, the cap time, the spawn locations etc seem good to me.

The problem is that you always have a shit uber if you push in. and its really dofficult to repush without uber. If (from defenders perspective) you removed the giant sniper sightline from top right into shutter, made the choke bigger and made it not be a double door, that would open it up. Then for top left, dont have that gap under the fence to nerf sniper a bit, and extend it a bit further. That way if you knock the soldier off you could feasibly dry push or hold an uber as you go in.