warmfront or yukon were both more fun to play than sunshine or metalworks
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Candidates for map replacement S21
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Map Discussion
kittynwarmfront or yukon were both more fun to play thansunshine ormetalworks
[quote=kittyn]warmfront or yukon were both more fun to play than [s]sunshine or[/s] metalworks[/quote]
It's 2016 and people are still hating sunshine? What is this?
It's 2016 and people are still hating sunshine? What is this?
people who hate sunshine are the same people who like gravelpit
people who hate sunshine are the same people who like gravelpit
ViglIt's 2016 and people are still hating sunshine? What is this?
MadKpeople who hate sunshine are the same people who like gravelpit
talk to me when looking at mid stops dropping my fps by 200 minimum.
[quote=Vigl]It's 2016 and people are still hating sunshine? What is this?[/quote]
[quote=MadK]people who hate sunshine are the same people who like gravelpit[/quote]
talk to me when looking at mid stops dropping my fps by 200 minimum.
[quote=MadK]people who hate sunshine are the same people who like gravelpit[/quote]
talk to me when looking at mid stops dropping my fps by 200 minimum.
Knuckles_talk to me when looking at mid stops dropping my fps by 200 minimum.
I actually run tf2 on a fucking potatis and I don't have any fps problems on that map, the problem could be on your end.
The map looks amazing and has a nice flow to it and is fun to play.
don't talk to me
[quote=Knuckles_]talk to me when looking at mid stops dropping my fps by 200 minimum.[/quote]
I actually run tf2 on a fucking potatis and I don't have any fps problems on that map, the problem could be on your end.
The map looks amazing and has a nice flow to it and is fun to play.
don't talk to me
I actually run tf2 on a fucking potatis and I don't have any fps problems on that map, the problem could be on your end.
The map looks amazing and has a nice flow to it and is fun to play.
don't talk to me
make sure we're on the right version of sunshine
-metalworks
+logjam
sounds fine to me, metalworks isn't the greatest map and logjam is good enough, would be fine to try it out for 1 season at least to see how it goes. Could replace it with reckoner next season if logjam turns out bad.
make sure we're on the right version of sunshine
-metalworks
+logjam
sounds fine to me, metalworks isn't the greatest map and logjam is good enough, would be fine to try it out for 1 season at least to see how it goes. Could replace it with reckoner next season if logjam turns out bad.
-metalworks
+logjam
sounds fine to me, metalworks isn't the greatest map and logjam is good enough, would be fine to try it out for 1 season at least to see how it goes. Could replace it with reckoner next season if logjam turns out bad.
Sunshine only has a nice flow if both teams are playing aggressively. If one team decides to slow the game down or run a sniper it becomes the slowest map in the eu rotation (can't speak for metalworks). The map has large open areas with pieces of cover in between which makes closing down a sniper difficult, and all of the default holding positions are a long way away from the choke points.
In addition last is still the most difficult to push out of any due to tight chokes barring easy entry and exit, the high ground is only near the chokes so attackers have to drop down to commit to a fight and risk being destroyed, and the fact that the best holding positions for defenders are near spawn far away behind cover.
The mid is liked by some and vehemently disliked by others so I won't comment on it, but above is why it is disliked as a map by players at the top level in eu. It is difficult to engage through choke points when defending teams are structured and disciplined, even with control of mid or 2nd.
Sunshine only has a nice flow if both teams are playing aggressively. If one team decides to slow the game down or run a sniper it becomes the slowest map in the eu rotation (can't speak for metalworks). The map has large open areas with pieces of cover in between which makes closing down a sniper difficult, and all of the default holding positions are a long way away from the choke points.
In addition last is still the most difficult to push out of any due to tight chokes barring easy entry and exit, the high ground is only near the chokes so attackers have to drop down to commit to a fight and risk being destroyed, and the fact that the best holding positions for defenders are near spawn far away behind cover.
The mid is liked by some and vehemently disliked by others so I won't comment on it, but above is why it is disliked as a map by players at the top level in eu. It is difficult to engage through choke points when defending teams are structured and disciplined, even with control of mid or 2nd.
In addition last is still the most difficult to push out of any due to tight chokes barring easy entry and exit, the high ground is only near the chokes so attackers have to drop down to commit to a fight and risk being destroyed, and the fact that the best holding positions for defenders are near spawn far away behind cover.
The mid is liked by some and vehemently disliked by others so I won't comment on it, but above is why it is disliked as a map by players at the top level in eu. It is difficult to engage through choke points when defending teams are structured and disciplined, even with control of mid or 2nd.
Fuck granary get that shit out of here... SLAY THAT SHIT
Fuck granary get that shit out of here... SLAY THAT SHIT
Imo metalworks is the slowest map in the rotation. When the other team has control of mid it really really sucks and pushing last point is a nightmare right now.
Not saying granary is much better though.
Wasn't there a group of guys pushing for more A/D maps because they liked how you could use set strategies?
Imo metalworks is the slowest map in the rotation. When the other team has control of mid it really really sucks and pushing last point is a nightmare right now.
Not saying granary is much better though.
Wasn't there a group of guys pushing for more A/D maps because they liked how you could use set strategies?
Not saying granary is much better though.
Wasn't there a group of guys pushing for more A/D maps because they liked how you could use set strategies?
Sideshowsnip.
Imo the map is very similar to process, the map has large open areas and pushing points (especially last) Is very hard. I just think that people haven't given it enough time to work out how to play on it. I can't comment on the top scene but from what I have played it has so much potential for flanking classes, which makes the game so much more fun to play and watch.
[quote=Sideshow]snip.[/quote]
Imo the map is very similar to process, the map has large open areas and pushing points (especially last) Is very hard. I just think that people haven't given it enough time to work out how to play on it. I can't comment on the top scene but from what I have played it has so much potential for flanking classes, which makes the game so much more fun to play and watch.
Imo the map is very similar to process, the map has large open areas and pushing points (especially last) Is very hard. I just think that people haven't given it enough time to work out how to play on it. I can't comment on the top scene but from what I have played it has so much potential for flanking classes, which makes the game so much more fun to play and watch.
MadKSideshowsnip.
Imo the map is very similar to process, the map has large open areas and pushing points (especially last) Is very hard. I just think that people haven't given it enough time to work out how to play on it. I can't comment on the top scene but from what I have played it has so much potential for flanking classes, which makes the game so much more fun to play and watch.
Sunshine has been played for the whole of 2015. A year is long enough to "figure out" a map in TF2, it's not a complex game. It's been in two seasons, an intercontinental and various cups. The argument that it just needs more time holds no weight in my view. It's not a new map any more.
The difference between process and sunshine comes back to what I was saying before about the best positions to defend from. One of the biggest problems with people understanding maps and strategy in tf2 is that people use these blanket statements like "open areas" and "hard points" without defining why they are like that, or whether the difficulties are actually valid.
When pushing 2nd on sunshine, the defensive team positions themselves back on the high ground near lighthouse. It's a bit like process in that regard but with key differences. For starters this makes it very difficult to get picks as you can watch everything from far away unlike PC or sewers. The only people you could possibly pick are roamers or scouts who overextend in flowers, and there's no need to do that. The defending team don't have to force an uber in choke as the attacking team has difficult low-ground to take an uber fight on, but can easily force a push from cafe or flowers from there. During the uber fight, it differs from process in that the high ground is easy to hold onto, and the attacking team can't easily secure a good position. If they do, the fight is easily won - if you knock the defending team down to the shutter door you've won the fight most of the time. But it's not a spire that you can deny, it has staircases and it's wide and easy to retain control of. So adding that together, you have an easily defensible high ground that is hard to get to without using, hard to get control of, and hard to get picks to help you push. It's hard to get the position or the frags.
When pushing last on sunshine, the chokes are much tighter than process, and there are only 3 entrances rather than 5. There's no side that can't be defended well (like the long entrance opposite rollout on process) and you can't push the team back into panic-room/balcony/spawn and play the cap time. Also, to not repeat myself, see the differences below.
SideshowIn addition last is still the most difficult to push out of any due to tight chokes barring easy entry and exit, the high ground is only near the chokes so attackers have to drop down to commit to a fight and risk being destroyed, and the fact that the best holding positions for defenders are near spawn far away behind cover.
I'm not trying to slam you or w/e but this kind of opinion gets repeated a lot, where people make vague statements comparing maps without actually thinking about whether the comparisons hold or whether they're making this statement "sunshine = process" just because there's 3 flanks and a ramp-style choke.
[quote=MadK][quote=Sideshow]snip.[/quote]
Imo the map is very similar to process, the map has large open areas and pushing points (especially last) Is very hard. I just think that people haven't given it enough time to work out how to play on it. I can't comment on the top scene but from what I have played it has so much potential for flanking classes, which makes the game so much more fun to play and watch.[/quote]
Sunshine has been played for the whole of 2015. A year is long enough to "figure out" a map in TF2, it's not a complex game. It's been in two seasons, an intercontinental and various cups. The argument that it just needs more time holds no weight in my view. It's not a new map any more.
The difference between process and sunshine comes back to what I was saying before about the best positions to defend from. One of the biggest problems with people understanding maps and strategy in tf2 is that people use these blanket statements like "open areas" and "hard points" without defining why they are like that, or whether the difficulties are actually valid.
When pushing 2nd on sunshine, the defensive team positions themselves back on the high ground near lighthouse. It's a bit like process in that regard but with key differences. For starters this makes it very difficult to get picks as you can watch everything from far away unlike PC or sewers. The only people you could possibly pick are roamers or scouts who overextend in flowers, and there's no need to do that. The defending team don't have to force an uber in choke as the attacking team has difficult low-ground to take an uber fight on, but can easily force a push from cafe or flowers from there. During the uber fight, it differs from process in that the high ground is easy to hold onto, and the attacking team can't easily secure a good position. If they do, the fight is easily won - if you knock the defending team down to the shutter door you've won the fight most of the time. But it's not a spire that you can deny, it has staircases and it's wide and easy to retain control of. So adding that together, you have an easily defensible high ground that is hard to get to without using, hard to get control of, and hard to get picks to help you push. It's hard to get the position or the frags.
When pushing last on sunshine, the chokes are much tighter than process, and there are only 3 entrances rather than 5. There's no side that can't be defended well (like the long entrance opposite rollout on process) and you can't push the team back into panic-room/balcony/spawn and play the cap time. Also, to not repeat myself, see the differences below.
[quote=Sideshow]
In addition last is still the most difficult to push out of any due to tight chokes barring easy entry and exit, the high ground is only near the chokes so attackers have to drop down to commit to a fight and risk being destroyed, and the fact that the best holding positions for defenders are near spawn far away behind cover.[/quote]
I'm not trying to slam you or w/e but this kind of opinion gets repeated a lot, where people make vague statements comparing maps without actually thinking about whether the comparisons hold or whether they're making this statement "sunshine = process" just because there's 3 flanks and a ramp-style choke.
Imo the map is very similar to process, the map has large open areas and pushing points (especially last) Is very hard. I just think that people haven't given it enough time to work out how to play on it. I can't comment on the top scene but from what I have played it has so much potential for flanking classes, which makes the game so much more fun to play and watch.[/quote]
Sunshine has been played for the whole of 2015. A year is long enough to "figure out" a map in TF2, it's not a complex game. It's been in two seasons, an intercontinental and various cups. The argument that it just needs more time holds no weight in my view. It's not a new map any more.
The difference between process and sunshine comes back to what I was saying before about the best positions to defend from. One of the biggest problems with people understanding maps and strategy in tf2 is that people use these blanket statements like "open areas" and "hard points" without defining why they are like that, or whether the difficulties are actually valid.
When pushing 2nd on sunshine, the defensive team positions themselves back on the high ground near lighthouse. It's a bit like process in that regard but with key differences. For starters this makes it very difficult to get picks as you can watch everything from far away unlike PC or sewers. The only people you could possibly pick are roamers or scouts who overextend in flowers, and there's no need to do that. The defending team don't have to force an uber in choke as the attacking team has difficult low-ground to take an uber fight on, but can easily force a push from cafe or flowers from there. During the uber fight, it differs from process in that the high ground is easy to hold onto, and the attacking team can't easily secure a good position. If they do, the fight is easily won - if you knock the defending team down to the shutter door you've won the fight most of the time. But it's not a spire that you can deny, it has staircases and it's wide and easy to retain control of. So adding that together, you have an easily defensible high ground that is hard to get to without using, hard to get control of, and hard to get picks to help you push. It's hard to get the position or the frags.
When pushing last on sunshine, the chokes are much tighter than process, and there are only 3 entrances rather than 5. There's no side that can't be defended well (like the long entrance opposite rollout on process) and you can't push the team back into panic-room/balcony/spawn and play the cap time. Also, to not repeat myself, see the differences below.
[quote=Sideshow]
In addition last is still the most difficult to push out of any due to tight chokes barring easy entry and exit, the high ground is only near the chokes so attackers have to drop down to commit to a fight and risk being destroyed, and the fact that the best holding positions for defenders are near spawn far away behind cover.[/quote]
I'm not trying to slam you or w/e but this kind of opinion gets repeated a lot, where people make vague statements comparing maps without actually thinking about whether the comparisons hold or whether they're making this statement "sunshine = process" just because there's 3 flanks and a ramp-style choke.
Process is a lot like sunshine in some ways, but that's not really a good thing. Pretty much all the problems process has are repeated on sunshine with a worse midfight and less cool jumps you can do to wrap up the mediocre game-play in pretty ribbons.
Process is a lot like sunshine in some ways, but that's not really a good thing. Pretty much all the problems process has are repeated on sunshine with a worse midfight and less cool jumps you can do to wrap up the mediocre game-play in pretty ribbons.
Me and my friends are working on a pro version for cp_gorge, but it is right now dedicated to 4v4 play. It may become a 6v6 map later on, but we aren't too sure yet.
Me and my friends are working on a pro version for cp_gorge, but it is right now dedicated to 4v4 play. It may become a 6v6 map later on, but we aren't too sure yet.
ScrewballEvil_MrMuffinzi've waited for the day that i could see granary being replacedScout mains are the devil.
Hey at least the scout class isn't all about squirting out its own heal juice onto everyone.
[quote=Screwball][quote=Evil_MrMuffinz]i've waited for the day that i could see granary being replaced[/quote]
Scout mains are the devil.[/quote]
Hey at least the scout class isn't all about squirting out its own heal juice onto everyone.
Scout mains are the devil.[/quote]
Hey at least the scout class isn't all about squirting out its own heal juice onto everyone.
flatlineI legitimately don't get why people hate metalworks.
please explain it to me
I have beaten every single one of my heal records on metalworks in officials. It is too difficult to push out if you loose mid and to easy to hold indefinitely.
[quote=flatline]I legitimately don't get why people hate metalworks.
please explain it to me[/quote]
I have beaten every single one of my heal records on metalworks in officials. It is too difficult to push out if you loose mid and to easy to hold indefinitely.
please explain it to me[/quote]
I have beaten every single one of my heal records on metalworks in officials. It is too difficult to push out if you loose mid and to easy to hold indefinitely.
Knuckles_talk to me when looking at mid stops dropping my fps by 200 minimum.
try out rc9, might not improve your FPS by 200 but I did a lot of optimization and hint work and i've only got good comments about fps improvement so far.
I do hope ESEA uses rc9 next season. I don't really have a direct link to someone like Tri so I can't exactly tell them to change the map - if anyone with that link could inform them of the update, that'd be great.
[quote=Knuckles_]talk to me when looking at mid stops dropping my fps by 200 minimum.[/quote]
try out rc9, might not improve your FPS by 200 but I did a lot of optimization and hint work and i've only got good comments about fps improvement so far.
I do hope ESEA uses rc9 next season. I don't really have a direct link to someone like Tri so I can't exactly tell them to change the map - if anyone with that link could inform them of the update, that'd be great.
try out rc9, might not improve your FPS by 200 but I did a lot of optimization and hint work and i've only got good comments about fps improvement so far.
I do hope ESEA uses rc9 next season. I don't really have a direct link to someone like Tri so I can't exactly tell them to change the map - if anyone with that link could inform them of the update, that'd be great.
I feel like this has been said already but people need to focus on making maps/improvingthat are good enough to replace the weaker maps instead of just picking that map they want out when there really aren't any good replacements for them yet to be honest.I remember when there was that vote on esea in like season 19 to vote out granary and there weren't any good maps so it just got voted back in. I definitely think rekoner will get very good in its future versions since its only in alpha i believe. but for this season get Sunshine rc9 and everything else is good.
I feel like this has been said already but people need to focus on making maps/improvingthat are good enough to replace the weaker maps instead of just picking that map they want out when there really aren't any good replacements for them yet to be honest.I remember when there was that vote on esea in like season 19 to vote out granary and there weren't any good maps so it just got voted back in. I definitely think rekoner will get very good in its future versions since its only in alpha i believe. but for this season get Sunshine rc9 and everything else is good.
I'm just curious, what happened to edifice? It seemed to have a lot of hype forever ago and now it seems completely forgotten. IMO it was a better-structured gravelpit where you don't immediately give up A, but that's from inhouse pugs and a lobby or two a few years back.
I'm just curious, what happened to edifice? It seemed to have a lot of hype forever ago and now it seems completely forgotten. IMO it was a better-structured gravelpit where you don't immediately give up A, but that's from inhouse pugs and a lobby or two a few years back.
sunshine only gives some people worse fps than it should because of the grass sprites. http://www.teamfortress.tv/20219/detail-sprite-commands
I think older versions had denser grass, which was a problem.
sunshine only gives some people worse fps than it should because of the grass sprites. http://www.teamfortress.tv/20219/detail-sprite-commands
I think older versions had denser grass, which was a problem.
I think older versions had denser grass, which was a problem.
Sunshine should be a staple (at least in NA), it feels like a healthy remix of Process with great point variety and a killer mid. In EU and AU it isn't as great because of teams playing more safe, off-classing and generally keeping it slow. But cmon, you can't call Sunshine slow when you're happy to play bloody Gullywash, please.
Metalworks needs to go or be changed (although Scorpio working for BossKey probably isn't helping that along) Mid-Second and Second Lobby - Last holds are way too strong for the defenders and attackers respectfully.
Granary Pro fixes a lot of the problems with classic granary and I see really no reason to run classic over pro.
Edifice suffers from the heavy+demo+medic roaming strat being a tad too good, but other than that I think it's an A+ improvement over Gravelpit for 6v6, the map is a lot tighter and focused than Gravelpit and I think if people gave it a chance like they did Metalworks/Sunshine we could either get Phi updating it to be as good as Sunshine is, or finding out why the community seems to dislike A/D in 6v6.
CP_Reckoner, CP_Dross, CP_Banana and other indev maps are much too early in their development to even be considered, and the last time we played a beta map in leagues it got shit on because it was still improving, and not a finished product (Sunshine).
Sunshine should be a staple (at least in NA), it feels like a healthy remix of Process with great point variety and a killer mid. In EU and AU it isn't as great because of teams playing more safe, off-classing and generally keeping it slow. But cmon, you can't call Sunshine slow when you're happy to play bloody Gullywash, please.
Metalworks needs to go or be changed (although Scorpio working for BossKey probably isn't helping that along) Mid-Second and Second Lobby - Last holds are way too strong for the defenders and attackers respectfully.
Granary Pro fixes a lot of the problems with classic granary and I see really no reason to run classic over pro.
Edifice suffers from the heavy+demo+medic roaming strat being a tad too good, but other than that I think it's an A+ improvement over Gravelpit for 6v6, the map is a lot tighter and focused than Gravelpit and I think if people gave it a chance like they did Metalworks/Sunshine we could either get Phi updating it to be as good as Sunshine is, or finding out why the community seems to dislike A/D in 6v6.
CP_Reckoner, CP_Dross, CP_Banana and other indev maps are much too early in their development to even be considered, and the last time we played a beta map in leagues it got shit on because it was still improving, and not a finished product (Sunshine).
Metalworks needs to go or be changed (although Scorpio working for BossKey probably isn't helping that along) Mid-Second and Second Lobby - Last holds are way too strong for the defenders and attackers respectfully.
Granary Pro fixes a lot of the problems with classic granary and I see really no reason to run classic over pro.
Edifice suffers from the heavy+demo+medic roaming strat being a tad too good, but other than that I think it's an A+ improvement over Gravelpit for 6v6, the map is a lot tighter and focused than Gravelpit and I think if people gave it a chance like they did Metalworks/Sunshine we could either get Phi updating it to be as good as Sunshine is, or finding out why the community seems to dislike A/D in 6v6.
CP_Reckoner, CP_Dross, CP_Banana and other indev maps are much too early in their development to even be considered, and the last time we played a beta map in leagues it got shit on because it was still improving, and not a finished product (Sunshine).
[img]https://static-cdn.jtvnw.net/emoticons/v1/64138/2.0[/img] Thanks Lain [img]https://static-cdn.jtvnw.net/emoticons/v1/64138/2.0[/img]
As much as I'd like to see new maps, I've noticed from playing in a lot of playtests for new maps that the community always drags down too fast a map that has a new feature or an innovation. For some reason people who test those maps like to immediately find fault in something new.
Generally the maps that tend to get good feedback are your casual crates mid - spire/highround second.
As much as I'd like to see new maps, I've noticed from playing in a lot of playtests for new maps that the community always drags down too fast a map that has a new feature or an innovation. For some reason people who test those maps like to immediately find fault in something new.
Generally the maps that tend to get good feedback are your casual crates mid - spire/highround second.
Generally the maps that tend to get good feedback are your casual crates mid - spire/highround second.
people should try scrimming yukon again. Really the only shit part of the current version is pushing last. Sniper is also pretty strong on mid, but the rollout is so long that you can mess up the other team before a sniper gets to mid.
people should try scrimming yukon again. Really the only shit part of the current version is pushing last. Sniper is also pretty strong on mid, but the rollout is so long that you can mess up the other team before a sniper gets to mid.
SideshowSunshine has been played for the whole of 2015. A year is long enough to "figure out" a map in TF2, it's not a complex game. It's been in two seasons, an intercontinental and various cups. The argument that it just needs more time holds no weight in my view. It's not a new map any more.
this would be a more viable argument if one of the maps people have been pushing out in this thread wasn't granary, a map that's been around since TF2 was first released, and is pretty clearly an example of a map that wasn't truly figured out until recently
[quote=Sideshow]Sunshine has been played for the whole of 2015. A year is long enough to "figure out" a map in TF2, it's not a complex game. It's been in two seasons, an intercontinental and various cups. The argument that it just needs more time holds no weight in my view. It's not a new map any more.[/quote]
this would be a more viable argument if one of the maps people have been pushing out in this thread wasn't granary, a map that's been around since TF2 was first released, and is pretty clearly an example of a map that wasn't truly figured out until recently
this would be a more viable argument if one of the maps people have been pushing out in this thread wasn't granary, a map that's been around since TF2 was first released, and is pretty clearly an example of a map that wasn't truly figured out until recently
trashSideshowSunshine has been played for the whole of 2015. A year is long enough to "figure out" a map in TF2, it's not a complex game. It's been in two seasons, an intercontinental and various cups. The argument that it just needs more time holds no weight in my view. It's not a new map any more.this would be a more viable argument if one of the maps people have been pushing out in this thread wasn't granary, a map that's been around since TF2 was first released, and is pretty clearly an example of a map that wasn't truly figured out until recently
What on earth do you mean that granary wasn't figured out until recently?
I think you're totally confusing advances in how the game is played with how the map is played.
[quote=trash][quote=Sideshow]Sunshine has been played for the whole of 2015. A year is long enough to "figure out" a map in TF2, it's not a complex game. It's been in two seasons, an intercontinental and various cups. The argument that it just needs more time holds no weight in my view. It's not a new map any more.[/quote]
this would be a more viable argument if one of the maps people have been pushing out in this thread wasn't granary, a map that's been around since TF2 was first released, and is pretty clearly an example of a map that wasn't truly figured out until recently[/quote]
What on earth do you mean that granary wasn't figured out until recently?
I think you're totally confusing advances in how the game is played with how the map is played.
this would be a more viable argument if one of the maps people have been pushing out in this thread wasn't granary, a map that's been around since TF2 was first released, and is pretty clearly an example of a map that wasn't truly figured out until recently[/quote]
What on earth do you mean that granary wasn't figured out until recently?
I think you're totally confusing advances in how the game is played with how the map is played.
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