This is going to be a post that is directed to the older members of the community in regards to new players, so it would be nice if people read it and took note, I want MM to be successful for us and to grow the game.
Now this is coming from someone who works with newbies on a weekly basis with newbiemixes, and this is not a post telling people to be all nice and fuzzy in MM as to not scare away people because A: it would not work and B: if you cant deal with shit talk why are you playing comp video games? Anyways to get back to the point of this; new players that want to have a active part in the community and find a team.
In newbie mixes we tell all of the players there, no matter how bad, to go and play ESEA and skip UGC 6s because it is a waste of time (for the most part). We tell them this for two reasons, 1: you get better faster, and 2: we need more people playing ESEA, we all know that. We also tell people that are wondering how to get on a team to go to the tf.tv forums and make a thread. Now this is all good in practice, and it works sometimes. The issue we have is people on the forums immediately responding to those "Im just starting to play and I want a team please pick me up" posts with "Go look on the UGC forums". This is not the response we should be giving to any player that is looking to play 6s. All it does it take away from the potential ESEA player base and it also tells these new people that they are not good enough and have to get better until they can be on TF.TV. If we want this to be a community forum and place to gather for more then just the 6v6 players, we need to start to let people (even those that are right out of MM and brand new) make those threads and find actual ESEA teams, all UGC does it take away form 6s. So please don't tell the new players to go elsewhere, let them find an actual team.
TL;DR Stop telling people to go to UGC, If we want more players in ESEA stop telling the new ones to fuck off.
This is going to be a post that is directed to the older members of the community in regards to new players, so it would be nice if people read it and took note, I want MM to be successful for us and to grow the game.
Now this is coming from someone who works with newbies on a weekly basis with newbiemixes, and this is not a post telling people to be all nice and fuzzy in MM as to not scare away people because A: it would not work and B: if you cant deal with shit talk why are you playing comp video games? Anyways to get back to the point of this; new players that want to have a active part in the community and find a team.
In newbie mixes we tell all of the players there, no matter how bad, to go and play ESEA and skip UGC 6s because it is a waste of time (for the most part). We tell them this for two reasons, 1: you get better faster, and 2: we need more people playing ESEA, we all know that. We also tell people that are wondering how to get on a team to go to the tf.tv forums and make a thread. Now this is all good in practice, and it works sometimes. The issue we have is people on the forums immediately responding to those "Im just starting to play and I want a team please pick me up" posts with "Go look on the UGC forums". This is not the response we should be giving to any player that is looking to play 6s. All it does it take away from the potential ESEA player base and it also tells these new people that they are not good enough and have to get better until they can be on TF.TV. If we want this to be a community forum and place to gather for more then just the 6v6 players, we need to start to let people (even those that are right out of MM and brand new) make those threads and find actual ESEA teams, all UGC does it take away form 6s. So please don't tell the new players to go elsewhere, let them find an actual team.
TL;DR Stop telling people to go to UGC, If we want more players in ESEA stop telling the new ones to fuck off.
am i the only person who had a positive experience as a new player in ugc. i don't get why you would tell new players to pay $25 to get crushed all season when they could play in ugc, get low open scrims and have the same experience without getting rolled every match
am i the only person who had a positive experience as a new player in ugc. i don't get why you would tell new players to pay $25 to get crushed all season when they could play in ugc, get low open scrims and have the same experience without getting rolled every match
Im not saying UGC can't be positive, im saying that telling people that they are not good enough for ESEA is wrong.
Steel has 75 alive teams right now, even assuming that only 25% of them care about tf2 to where they want to get better that is still 18 teams. 18 more teams in open. That's part of the issue with open, anyone can play sure it but there is a stigma that you have to be "this" good to enter. One reason that is the case is because we tell new players that they cannot play. Look at CS open, most teams have a great time and don't get crushed 24/7 and the only way we can get our open to that point is by getting new players into it. The point of the post was to try and get more people in the game, no matter how slowly. and really $25 for 3 months is nothing for a hobby so that's not really a valid argument.
Im not saying UGC can't be positive, im saying that telling people that they are not good enough for ESEA is wrong.
Steel has 75 alive teams right now, even assuming that only 25% of them care about tf2 to where they want to get better that is still 18 teams. 18 more teams in open. That's part of the issue with open, anyone can play sure it but there is a stigma that you have to be "this" good to enter. One reason that is the case is because we tell new players that they cannot play. Look at CS open, most teams have a great time and don't get crushed 24/7 and the only way we can get our open to that point is by getting new players into it. The point of the post was to try and get more people in the game, no matter how slowly. and really $25 for 3 months is nothing for a hobby so that's not really a valid argument.
esea just needs more divisions. putting ugc steel players in with high level open teams is not going to be fun for anyone.
esea just needs more divisions. putting ugc steel players in with high level open teams is not going to be fun for anyone.
the skill disparity is just too great, it also doesnt help open players get better by stomping fresh players
ive seen a shit ton of open players say "if youre new, you play UGC and then get into open"
it also isn't a good idea to make new players pay money to get stomped and then decide not to play again based on the awful experience. they should play UGC and decide if they want to continue.
the skill disparity is just too great, it also doesnt help open players get better by stomping fresh players
ive seen a shit ton of open players say "if youre new, you play UGC and then get into open"
it also isn't a good idea to make new players pay money to get stomped and then decide not to play again based on the awful experience. they should play UGC and decide if they want to continue.
i started in ugc and i would probably recommend it to people who arent really ready for a full commitment to tf2
i ended up playing 3 seasons of ugc before trying esea, which is too much, but it would have been better than getting shit on in esea and potentially giving up on competitive tf2
there is a huge lack of any passion or desire to improve in iron-silver ugc players, and telling them "play esea" doesnt change their interests
idk im kind of saying the same thing over and over but its the same way you would tell a pubber to try tf2center before committing to a team. as long as you explain the downsides of each play environment to them its fine for them to start off slow
i started in ugc and i would probably recommend it to people who arent really ready for a full commitment to tf2
i ended up playing 3 seasons of ugc before trying esea, which is too much, but it would have been better than getting shit on in esea and potentially giving up on competitive tf2
there is a huge lack of any passion or desire to improve in iron-silver ugc players, and telling them "play esea" doesnt change their interests
idk im kind of saying the same thing over and over but its the same way you would tell a pubber to try tf2center before committing to a team. as long as you explain the downsides of each play environment to them its fine for them to start off slow
You guys do realise that if the teams playing UGC just played ESEA instead the skill level would be p much the same?
Like flame said, the more of the new teams that sign up to esea, the more that Open will be full of teams around their skill and it will, at some point, force a new division. Siphoning people off into a free league that isn't as competitive and has a much smaller reach only makes the skill disparity problem worse.
The only argument for UGC is that it's free, and that appeals to people without money or without the desire to spend money on gaming. But for those who can afford to do so, going to ESEA would be a better solution for the whole community.
EDIT: The argument that people are more likely to have a bad experience if they pay for it is also bull imo. In ETF2L (free league) you also have teams who get stomped in their first season and cry. Whether or not somebody will be put off TF2 is not dependent on whether or not they paid for the privilege of being annihilated.
You guys do realise that if the teams playing UGC just played ESEA instead the skill level would be p much the same?
Like flame said, the more of the new teams that sign up to esea, the more that Open will be full of teams around their skill and it will, at some point, force a new division. Siphoning people off into a free league that isn't as competitive and has a much smaller reach only makes the skill disparity problem worse.
The only argument for UGC is that it's free, and that appeals to people without money or without the desire to spend money on gaming. But for those who can afford to do so, going to ESEA would be a better solution for the whole community.
EDIT: The argument that people are more likely to have a bad experience if they pay for it is also bull imo. In ETF2L (free league) you also have teams who get stomped in their first season and cry. Whether or not somebody will be put off TF2 is not dependent on whether or not they paid for the privilege of being annihilated.
SideshowYou guys do realise that if the teams playing UGC just played ESEA instead the skill level would be p much the same?
Like flame said, the more of the new teams that sign up to esea, the more that Open will be full of teams around their skill and it will, at some point, force a new division. Siphoning people off into a free league that isn't as competitive and has a much smaller reach only makes the skill disparity problem worse.
The only argument for UGC is that it's free, and that appeals to people without money or without the desire to spend money on gaming. But for those who can afford to do so, going to ESEA would be a better solution for the whole community.
EDIT: The argument that people are more likely to have a bad experience if they pay for it is also bull imo. In ETF2L (free league) you also have teams who get stomped in their first season and cry. Whether or not somebody will be put off TF2 is not dependent on whether or not they paid for the privilege of being annihilated.
If every UGC team moved to ESEA than it would be fine but there's no universe where that happens, same sort of situation as cevo failing because not every team is willing to move. The paying for it thing isn't the big deal here, it's that few new teams have the resolve to literally not win a single round all season and not die, losing $30 is more of just an added negative.
[quote=Sideshow]You guys do realise that if the teams playing UGC just played ESEA instead the skill level would be p much the same?
Like flame said, the more of the new teams that sign up to esea, the more that Open will be full of teams around their skill and it will, at some point, force a new division. Siphoning people off into a free league that isn't as competitive and has a much smaller reach only makes the skill disparity problem worse.
The only argument for UGC is that it's free, and that appeals to people without money or without the desire to spend money on gaming. But for those who can afford to do so, going to ESEA would be a better solution for the whole community.
EDIT: The argument that people are more likely to have a bad experience if they pay for it is also bull imo. In ETF2L (free league) you also have teams who get stomped in their first season and cry. Whether or not somebody will be put off TF2 is not dependent on whether or not they paid for the privilege of being annihilated.[/quote]
If every UGC team moved to ESEA than it would be fine but there's no universe where that happens, same sort of situation as cevo failing because not every team is willing to move. The paying for it thing isn't the big deal here, it's that few new teams have the resolve to literally not win a single round all season and not die, losing $30 is more of just an added negative.
SideshowThe only argument for UGC is that it's free, and that appeals to people without money or without the desire to spend money on gaming. But for those who can afford to do so, going to ESEA would be a better solution for the whole community.
And this argument itself is pretty lame when you realize that by simply posting to the forums (and not being an active moron), you can almost always find someone to pay for your first season. Or by asking your team to pitch in, which almost always works. Or you can sign up through newbie mixes which (starting next season) will be able to self-sustain payments for a decent amount of users with referral link returns.
UGC is great if you just want to play a couple nights a week or goof off with friends, but looking at the UGC team signup numbers is really upsetting when you think about where ESEA would be with just a third of those signups.
And I think the post means more "don't tell people they're not good enough for ESEA" (not sure, because i'm not tino). If people want to play in UGC, that's fine. But let them know that it's called "Open" for a reason. I regularly hear the "I'm not good enough" mantra in newbie mixes, and it's something that we should really try to get rid of if we ever want our premier league (and currently best long term opportunity) to thrive.
[quote=Sideshow]The only argument for UGC is that it's free, and that appeals to people without money or without the desire to spend money on gaming. But for those who can afford to do so, going to ESEA would be a better solution for the whole community.[/quote]
And this argument itself is pretty lame when you realize that by simply posting to the forums (and not being an active moron), you can almost always find someone to pay for your first season. Or by asking your team to pitch in, which almost always works. Or you can sign up through newbie mixes which (starting next season) will be able to self-sustain payments for a decent amount of users with referral link returns.
UGC is great if you just want to play a couple nights a week or goof off with friends, but looking at the UGC team signup numbers is really upsetting when you think about where ESEA would be with just a third of those signups.
And I think the post means more "don't tell people they're not good enough for ESEA" (not sure, because i'm not tino). If people want to play in UGC, that's fine. But let them know that it's called "Open" for a reason. I regularly hear the "I'm not good enough" mantra in newbie mixes, and it's something that we should really try to get rid of if we ever want our premier league (and currently best long term opportunity) to thrive.
when tf2 was larger, ESEA was open to creating more divisions (see s15 main)
if enough players get into ESEA and created a worse "low open" im sure that ESEA would introduce additional divisions
UGC is very good for new players though, i think that the advice people say of starting comp tf2 in ESEA is totally wrong as most of those teams just die immediately after they start losing
ESEA's new schedule system is also total aids and makes playing low open even worse than it was before (i hope they fix it)
when tf2 was larger, ESEA was open to creating more divisions (see s15 main)
if enough players get into ESEA and created a worse "low open" im sure that ESEA would introduce additional divisions
UGC is very good for new players though, i think that the advice people say of starting comp tf2 in ESEA is totally wrong as most of those teams just die immediately after they start losing
ESEA's new schedule system is also total aids and makes playing low open even worse than it was before (i hope they fix it)
im not saying that paying makes you have less fun
im saying having to pay to do something unfun makes it a really bad experience and makes people more likely to quit
i agree that if every ugc team played esea the scene would be better but a lot of ugc teams/players dont have any motivation to play esea
im not saying that paying makes you have less fun
im saying having to pay to do something unfun makes it a really bad experience and makes people more likely to quit
i agree that if every ugc team played esea the scene would be better but a lot of ugc teams/players dont have any motivation to play esea
Coming from someone that has played ugc up to this point, it is rather intimidating thinking that you're going to be thrown into a big array of people and most likely get shit on while paying money for it. ugc's alternative is slightly similar with more divisions as well as the league being free, so when it's put in that light it's a little bit understandable why esea is very intimidating for newer players. I do plan on playing esea (hopefully) next season, but it's not really helping newer players when they ask for help and their only answer they get is "pay to play in a league that you'll get shit on and maybe you'll get better eventually"
Coming from someone that has played ugc up to this point, it is rather intimidating thinking that you're going to be thrown into a big array of people and most likely get shit on while paying money for it. ugc's alternative is slightly similar with more divisions as well as the league being free, so when it's put in that light it's a little bit understandable why esea is very intimidating for newer players. I do plan on playing esea (hopefully) next season, but it's not really helping newer players when they ask for help and their only answer they get is "pay to play in a league that you'll get shit on and maybe you'll get better eventually"
KonceptLegacyI do plan on playing esea (hopefully) next season, but it's not really helping newer players when they ask for help and their only answer they get is "pay to play in a league that you'll get shit on and maybe you'll get better eventually"
This is another problem as well, which is a bit of a tangent: there has never been more content for people to learn from than there is currently. There is more content to help you learn comp tf2 than you could watch in a lifetime, with youtube guides, written guides, demo reviews, stream povs, casts with analysis, etc.
And people always just want specific help for themselves or their team. It's so draining to see these resources around and people just don't care enough to use them. Nobody should even have to ask for help right now, until you're at least IM level. It's madness!
You'd learn SO fast if you made use of these resources, reflected on your own gameplay honestly, and played against teams of a higher skill.
[quote=KonceptLegacy]I do plan on playing esea (hopefully) next season, but it's not really helping newer players when they ask for help and their only answer they get is "pay to play in a league that you'll get shit on and maybe you'll get better eventually"[/quote]
This is another problem as well, which is a bit of a tangent: there has never been more content for people to learn from than there is currently. There is more content to help you learn comp tf2 than you could watch in a lifetime, with youtube guides, written guides, demo reviews, stream povs, casts with analysis, etc.
And people [i]always[/i] just want specific help for themselves or their team. It's so draining to see these resources around and people just don't care enough to use them. Nobody should even have to ask for help right now, until you're at least IM level. It's madness!
You'd learn SO fast if you made use of these resources, reflected on your own gameplay honestly, and played against teams of a higher skill.
I can honestly see where both sides are coming from here, though I do have to say that I'd side with the idea of everyone signing up for ESEA Open over UGC for their first competitive experience.
I mean, it's as Kevin says. The "Open" division is accessible to everyone, so I see no issue in newer players joining in. As for being stomped and having a bad time playing, that's just how the game is when you're starting out, and it's not specific to ESEA either. UGC has plenty of sandbagging teams that just absolutely shit on everyone else in the lower divisions.
The key to team success is commitment. If a team decides that they don't want to be a team anymore after suffering loss after loss, chances are it wouldn't really matter what league they were playing in because the team would be doomed from the start to begin with. if anything, ESEA just serves as a means of weeding out those kind of teams quicker, but as a result, we'll be left with the truly committed who can help the scene grow, and possibly remnants of the other teams who don't share the same mindset as those who left. The path to success in Open may be a steep one, but it's definitely not an impossible climb for new teams so long as they have the passion to play and improve, and really, that's all you truly need.
I can honestly see where both sides are coming from here, though I do have to say that I'd side with the idea of everyone signing up for ESEA Open over UGC for their first competitive experience.
I mean, it's as Kevin says. The "Open" division is accessible to everyone, so I see no issue in newer players joining in. As for being stomped and having a bad time playing, that's just how the game is when you're starting out, and it's not specific to ESEA either. UGC has plenty of sandbagging teams that just absolutely shit on everyone else in the lower divisions.
The key to team success is commitment. If a team decides that they don't want to be a team anymore after suffering loss after loss, chances are it wouldn't really matter what league they were playing in because the team would be doomed from the start to begin with. if anything, ESEA just serves as a means of weeding out those kind of teams quicker, but as a result, we'll be left with the truly committed who can help the scene grow, and possibly remnants of the other teams who don't share the same mindset as those who left. The path to success in Open may be a steep one, but it's definitely not an impossible climb for new teams so long as they have the passion to play and improve, and really, that's all you truly need.
when youre putting $ into playing in a league you're more likely to care more in general, as well as your team not dying as easily. at least that's how i've always seen it.
when youre putting $ into playing in a league you're more likely to care more in general, as well as your team not dying as easily. at least that's how i've always seen it.
Interesting discussion here. I spend a lot of time trying to bring new players into competitive and I'm not a fan of many UGC policies. While I agree that cost can be a measure of a player/team's commitment, it can also be a barrier to entry for many. I just wish better alternatives existed for entry-level comp play.
Interesting discussion here. I spend a lot of time trying to bring new players into competitive and I'm not a fan of many UGC policies. While I agree that cost can be a measure of a player/team's commitment, it can also be a barrier to entry for many. I just wish better alternatives existed for entry-level comp play.
Tino_all UGC does it take away form 6s.
I don't buy it. I think there should always be a place for people to try and play comp for free. That's not to mention that UGC actually does some things better than ESEA, like scheduling.
In my experience, there are a lot of committed steel and silver 6s teams to give good practice for people who want to improve. I think people forget that or never have an opportunity to see it because gold+ is mostly just ESEA-ers fucking around since it's closer to their level.
My team got two seasons of experience in UGC first and then went 9-7 in our first season of open. That means we've had balanced competition that whole time. That was a much, much better experience than I think paying a bunch of money just to lose a lot, get salty, and then die would have been. diexxxtracrispy is another good example, given that half of their players are totally new to ESEA this season. Meanwhile, have you noticed that basically all of the newbie mixes teams are dead, like most low open teams? That's because playing in low open kind of sucks. I get how it's a good idea in theory to direct people here and build up a base of newer players in the division, but in practice, I think that that experience can be more discouraging than saying, "You might wanna try UGC," ever could be.
[quote=Tino_]all UGC does it take away form 6s.[/quote]
I don't buy it. I think there should always be a place for people to try and play comp for free. That's not to mention that UGC actually does some things better than ESEA, like scheduling.
In my experience, there are a lot of committed steel and silver 6s teams to give good practice for people who want to improve. I think people forget that or never have an opportunity to see it because gold+ is mostly just ESEA-ers fucking around since it's closer to their level.
My team got two seasons of experience in UGC first and then went 9-7 in our first season of open. That means we've had balanced competition that whole time. That was a much, much better experience than I think paying a bunch of money just to lose a lot, get salty, and then die would have been. diexxxtracrispy is another good example, given that half of their players are totally new to ESEA this season. Meanwhile, have you noticed that basically all of the newbie mixes teams are dead, like most low open teams? That's because playing in low open kind of sucks. I get how it's a good idea in theory to direct people here and build up a base of newer players in the division, but in practice, I think that that experience can be more discouraging than saying, "You might wanna try UGC," ever could be.
Trying to start out in UGC can be a frustrating experience for players who are actually interested in getting better in the competitive scene. I tried to start there with friends and then on a random team and both times I found that only a couple of people on the team were interested in scrimming and trying to improve.
I no longer have enough time to commit to TF2 to actually play on a team, but looking back I totally would have rather been playing ESEA than UGC when I could put in the practice.
I would definitely say that ESEA seems inaccessible to players trying to get into comp and not because of money (these are people who have probably spent $40 on hats), more the ego of the community and the horrible ESEA website.
Trying to start out in UGC can be a frustrating experience for players who are actually interested in getting better in the competitive scene. I tried to start there with friends and then on a random team and both times I found that only a couple of people on the team were interested in scrimming and trying to improve.
I no longer have enough time to commit to TF2 to actually play on a team, but looking back I totally would have rather been playing ESEA than UGC when I could put in the practice.
I would definitely say that ESEA seems inaccessible to players trying to get into comp and not because of money (these are people who have probably spent $40 on hats), more the ego of the community and the horrible ESEA website.
TomSkirrettTrying to start out in UGC can be a frustrating experience for players who are actually interested in getting better in the competitive scene. I tried to start there with friends and then on a random team and both times I found that only a couple of people on the team were interested in scrimming and trying to improve.
Yeah, but that's a challenge everywhere. It's not like playing in ESEA = magically having the same level of motivation. It's all about finding the right team... or setting your own standards for who you pick up on your own team.
[quote=TomSkirrett]Trying to start out in UGC can be a frustrating experience for players who are actually interested in getting better in the competitive scene. I tried to start there with friends and then on a random team and both times I found that only a couple of people on the team were interested in scrimming and trying to improve.[/quote]
Yeah, but that's a challenge everywhere. It's not like playing in ESEA = magically having the same level of motivation. It's all about finding the right team... or setting your own standards for who you pick up on your own team.
Something else I'd like to mention is that people shouldn't be harassing new players. We should be friendly and nice go them if we really want them to get more involved with the community. For example, bullying new players into playing medic is kind of lame, they should get the chance to play the class they want to play in 6's so they can experience it.
Another thing is you shouldn't shit talk to the ends of the earth, you're crushing pub players not much glory in that and shit talking them with binds isn't really cool.
Also give tips to players who are doing awful, because most of those players want to do better and they'll appreciate some advice for the most part.
Something else I'd like to mention is that people shouldn't be harassing new players. We should be friendly and nice go them if we really want them to get more involved with the community. For example, bullying new players into playing medic is kind of lame, they should get the chance to play the class they want to play in 6's so they can experience it.
Another thing is you shouldn't shit talk to the ends of the earth, you're crushing pub players not much glory in that and shit talking them with binds isn't really cool.
Also give tips to players who are doing awful, because most of those players want to do better and they'll appreciate some advice for the most part.
It seems to be a circular argument, where low open sucks because there aren't that many lower level/ugc teams, but there aren't that many ugc team in esea because of the horror stories of how bad low open is
It seems to be a circular argument, where low open sucks because there aren't that many lower level/ugc teams, but there aren't that many ugc team in esea because of the horror stories of how bad low open is
saamam i the only person who had a positive experience as a new player in ugc. i don't get why you would tell new players to pay $25 to get crushed all season when they could play in ugc, get low open scrims and have the same experience without getting rolled every match
Saam, I am pleasantly surprised to see you posting something really positive for once.
Your post was spot on. +frag my friend.
[quote=saam]am i the only person who had a positive experience as a new player in ugc. i don't get why you would tell new players to pay $25 to get crushed all season when they could play in ugc, get low open scrims and have the same experience without getting rolled every match[/quote]
Saam, I am pleasantly surprised to see you posting something really positive for once.
Your post was spot on. +frag my friend.
UGC iron and steel is a joke. You should tell them to start in UGC silver where everyone is pretty much low open + it's free.
UGC iron and steel is a joke. You should tell them to start in UGC silver where everyone is pretty much low open + it's free.