dummy invented demoman

This tells me you are as old as I am...But I agree.
Everyone is missing out on fojji though, I think he only played swedens national team for 2 cups and played with the swedish team Kompaniet for the first season of ETF2L, but he was destroying everyone. Don't know if his performance would still keep up with the much higher level of players in general, but back then no one came close.

I'm not exactly sure why you quoted me

idk brutalix is p. high on madness right now 4Head

b4nny:

Overall W/L: 3.84
LAN W/L: 2.5
Championships: 9 (2nd: 4)
Playoff appearances: 15

*Can ctap consistently ✔
*Central piece in team building and leading ✔
*Platinum and the Mixup guys used to say he was pretty fucking good ✔
*Top damages invariably when playing soldier, also did so notably in the past, as demo ✔
*Been widely considered to be at the top 3 in the world at Scout, Demo and Soldier ✔

*IMO Clockwork is undeniably the best scout, but b4nny is not as far from him as most people think. On the original Froyo it always bothered me that casters would talk about Clock's dpm and not notice at all that often b4nny had similar dpm and CONSTANTLY a amazing kdr - if my memory doesn't fail me, once banny had a 4kdr and the casters made no mention of it.

I'm too lazy to look for vods right now, but the first one I clicked actually already had b4nny with a better kdr and dpm than that of clock: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3UKylrQHfs

Platinum:

Overall W/L: 1.76
LAN W/L: 1.21
Championships: 4 (2nd: 5)
Playoff Appearances: 13

I don't think any fair comparison whatsoever can not have b4nny at least in the top 3.

Well, in my opinion, overall best player should be b4nny. I would also like to mention that some of the greatest players i've saw on NA were: Enigma, Platinum and Clockwork. But my personal favourites from anywhere around the world were always TLR, Jukebox and Sheep.

That is the exact reason why i think yuki MIGHT be able to contest. He was (is? i'm not 100% on this) pretty much undefeated and, beyond the one international lan they went to, (which he placed favorably in) he has been consistently on top.

m8 I think you misspelt ryb

I believe DESTRO predates just about every notable demoman you can list so if anyone defined playing demo at the highest levels, it would be him IMO.

kobe(bryant)

To me the best is a 3 way tie, just based on what they can do.

Seagull, B4nny, And Kaidus.

They just do things that seem seem impossible with ease.

Honorable mentions, again imo, Clockwork, Platinum, YZ50 and RR

Obviously I'm biased as fuck, but I think that some of the Aussies deserve being mentioned, especially since Immunity managed to hang pretty well with NA and EU at the i series events.

Yuki is a brilliant pocket and I think he outplayed all the other pockets at i55, and termo was insane on demo as well.

But hey opinion and conjecture.

Seagull is one of my favorite players to have watched. He was exiting and I learned many things watching his POV's but to keep "the best" topic from being a simple popularity contest I feel you really need to include raw numbers and how much a player actually "wins". While numbers are not the whole factor they do play a part to a degree.

That said, Seagull has among the "worst" career numbers of any player to have over 100 matches in invite. A 57% win rate is quite low for a player of his stature but it is important to note that 28 losses were at LAN's. Winning in playoffs is , to me, a huge factor.

Is he one of the best, if not the best roamer of all time? Arguably yes, but not the best player.

Yuki was undoubtedly the best soldier at i55. Others came close but he was clearly on another level at that LAN.

IMO it is hard to include Aussie players in this discussion because the number of truly high level players in AU has always been far below NA and EU.

That's definitely true, but in my opinion it just makes the achievements of Immunity at the i series even more impressive.

ya u keep bringing up numbers and winrates and shit and ignoring the context behind them

seagull played on a LOT of teams where he was basically the hard carry (besides alexwut/dummy/pure/ruwin/justin)

u can make playoffs pretty easily with 2/3 decent players

to do well in them u need 5/6

tf2 is a team game

im sure if u replace seagull with any other player on those teams u half their wins

Best player OVERALL is b4nny imo

you can hate the guy's personality but dont diminish his achievement because of it

I mentioned ryb because ryb actually pioneered and perfected a lot of the demo rollouts still used to this day in competitive maps. He not only was the staple demoman of his time but he literally (re)invented how the class was played, thus my response to that post.

Doing this in 2009 was basically unheard of at the time.

Yuki wasn't at i55, I think you mean i52. Even so, there is really no evidence to suggest yuki was the most dominant force at that LAN, especially not to the level you are talking about. Sure he was good, but arguably mike, zebbosai and lansky were all just as good if not better. Certainly statistically, Lansky was head and shoulders above the rest if you look at Vanilla TV's analysis of the LAN http://www.vanillatf2.org/2014/09/tf2-by-the-numbers-i52/

idk what is with people saying that less time at similar level = same skill, but b4nny played with enhance pointer precision on for a long time, and was still at the very top.

you got to give the man some props

I never said I ignored anything and I agree with you. Obviously they are huge factors and more important than raw numbers. What I did say was that there is a place in the discussion for raw numbers and winning does matter.

Looking at this makes me miss Lansky so much :(

Tek is a beast

Dignitas Darn deserves a little shoutout, even with the longetivity of this game his record isn't as huge as like benny's or Cyzers but after being permamently juggled by him in old ammomod, he stole my heart.

My favourite player to watch was Mackey though.

I think the i46 mix^ lineup was one of the most influential teams in terms of changing the metagame. I'm pretty sure PYYYOUR was a major contributing factor in that and I've always held him in high regard as a strategist since then (the iron man gpit hold tho) so I consider him a good mention. In a similar fashion, numlocked was the best aggressive demo of all time (admittedly this was pre nerf stickies but he was still head and shoulders above the competition), and he was the one behind the aggression that i49 epsi were famous for. Those two teams as well as froyotech are the elite teams of TF2s history, at least since I've been watching the game, and those were the key players of both of those teams. I think the same can be said for b4nny and clockwork from the start of froyo to i55, as they were both MASSIVELY impactful individual players, which is even more remarkable considering how much more mechanically capable the vast majority of the competition has become since the earlier i series LANs.

I would debate this to a point. While nothing can be taken away from numlocked in any way, I don't see how he was ever a more aggressive style of demoman than Kaidus. I think it just so happened that during the time period in question, Numlocked was on significantly better teams than Kaidus but he was not a more aggressive demo IMO.

he didnt say more aggressive demo though

i think termo was a very underrated demoman he put up huge numbers in i52 and did a lot of work for his team

gargleburry

I used to follow the comp scene from 2012 to ~mid 2014, what's become with the b4nny hate? When I stopped playing, everyone still loved the guy. But now it's like everyone wants to murder him or some shit.