The main thing is to support new projects and events. These things will give people the chance to start with competitive. See the HCC, Archimedes, TF2Lobby, Newbie mixes etc..
This does require people to set those things up, and not just talk about what a cool idea it would be to have them.
So if you have a good idea, find a small team to help you and just give it a go.
The main thing is to support new projects and events. These things will give people the chance to start with competitive. See the HCC, Archimedes, TF2Lobby, Newbie mixes etc..
This does require people to set those things up, and not just talk about what a cool idea it would be to have them.
So if you have a good idea, find a small team to help you and just give it a go.
This is going to be long, so bear with me, but I want to throw all my thoughts on this into one post.
Comp TF2 has 3 main problems, all unrelated, and all with their own steps needed to get them fixed.
Problem 1-Being a TF2 comp player carries awe, but not respect.
Show Content
For a VERY long time competitive tf2 has been separate from 'regular' tf2, and that has created the perception(and I'll let you decide how true this is) that 'regular' players have been essentially playing a different game than competitive players. The effect of this, is that watching pro play is not the 'ultimate peak of tf2' but rather 'the ultimate peak of comp tf2'.
Problem 2-The Whitelist and Balance(Its different I swear)
Show Content
At this point, the ESEA whitelist has become a meme. Casual players will quickly point out how sterile and controlled it feels, while comp players will just as quickly remind everyone how poor the balance is of modern TF2.
IF Valve holds their promise of balancing the game based off of MM results, the changes could go in two different directions, each having their own effects on the whitelist. In one universe, each weapon is balanced in respect to all the other available options for a slot, and how it effects other
classes.In the other(and I fear this is the universe we live in now) weapons are balanced individually, in a wierd compromise between what
should happen, and the ESEA whitelist. This outcome just goes further to reinforce the idea that Valve has no clue what they're doing, furthering the divide between the MM playerbase and the comp playerbase.
Problem 3- Valve's lack of communication
Show Content
Its not secret that Valve and communication do not have a good history together. No matter how you look at it, this is hurting TF2. People joke that Valve and the community are in an abusive relationship, and there is a lot of truth to that statement. The competitive community is afraid if straying too far from Valve's vision in fear of cutting them off completely, but at the same time they try to make changes, knowing deep inside that what they're dealing with is inherently flawed.
So micspam, stop complaining and start offering a solution
Show Content
So the question is, how do you make people respect competitive more. Well, in my mind, the first step is for a community figurehead to reach out to the TF team over at Valve, and start a dialog on what Valve sees for comp over the next 8-12 months, what the community sees for comp over the next 8-12 months, and figure out how to bridge the gap. I think that its inarguable that if Matchmaking were to become a long term success, there would be a demand for a more competitive version of TF2 that uses Matchmaking rules. At the same time, I genuinely think that the competitive community would be willing to play a version of TF2 with a very small, or nonexistent blacklist, if Valve managed to get weapon balance into a less heinous position.
Imagine what the scene looks like in 12 months if a health matchmaking system feeds people into a structured competitive scene, rather than the current system of introducing them to one variant of 6s, and then asking them to go play another if they want a structured setting.
If there is any one idea you can take away from this post, I hope its that the community recognizes their own strengths, but at the same time recognizes that we do need Valve's help to grow the scene. At a certain point, we can no longer be held responsible for TF2's stagnation, or death,
This is going to be long, so bear with me, but I want to throw all my thoughts on this into one post.
Comp TF2 has 3 main problems, all unrelated, and all with their own steps needed to get them fixed.
Problem 1-Being a TF2 comp player carries awe, but not respect.
[spoiler]For a VERY long time competitive tf2 has been separate from 'regular' tf2, and that has created the perception(and I'll let you decide how true this is) that 'regular' players have been essentially playing a different game than competitive players. The effect of this, is that watching pro play is not the 'ultimate peak of tf2' but rather 'the ultimate peak of comp tf2'.
[/spoiler]
Problem 2-The Whitelist and Balance(Its different I swear)
[spoiler] At this point, the ESEA whitelist has become a meme. Casual players will quickly point out how sterile and controlled it feels, while comp players will just as quickly remind everyone how poor the balance is of modern TF2. [b]IF[/b] Valve holds their promise of balancing the game based off of MM results, the changes could go in two different directions, each having their own effects on the whitelist. In one universe, each weapon is balanced in respect to all the other available options for a slot, and how it effects other classes.In the other(and I fear this is the universe we live in now) weapons are balanced individually, in a wierd compromise between what [i]should[/i] happen, and the ESEA whitelist. This outcome just goes further to reinforce the idea that Valve has no clue what they're doing, furthering the divide between the MM playerbase and the comp playerbase. [/spoiler]
Problem 3- Valve's lack of communication
[spoiler] Its not secret that Valve and communication do not have a good history together. No matter how you look at it, this is hurting TF2. People joke that Valve and the community are in an abusive relationship, and there is a lot of truth to that statement. The competitive community is afraid if straying too far from Valve's vision in fear of cutting them off completely, but at the same time they try to make changes, knowing deep inside that what they're dealing with is inherently flawed.[/spoiler]
So micspam, stop complaining and start offering a solution
[spoiler]
So the question is, how do you make people respect competitive more. Well, in my mind, the first step is for a community figurehead to reach out to the TF team over at Valve, and start a dialog on what Valve sees for comp over the next 8-12 months, what the community sees for comp over the next 8-12 months, and figure out how to bridge the gap. I think that its inarguable that if Matchmaking were to become a long term success, there would be a demand for a more competitive version of TF2 that uses Matchmaking rules. At the same time, I genuinely think that the competitive community would be willing to play a version of TF2 with a very small, or nonexistent blacklist, if Valve managed to get weapon balance into a less heinous position.
Imagine what the scene looks like in 12 months if a health matchmaking system feeds people into a structured competitive scene, rather than the current system of introducing them to one variant of 6s, and then asking them to go play another if they want a structured setting.
If there is any one idea you can take away from this post, I hope its that the community recognizes their own strengths, but at the same time recognizes that we do need Valve's help to grow the scene. At a certain point, we can no longer be held responsible for TF2's stagnation, or death,[/spoiler]
micspamWell, in my mind, the first step is for a community figurehead to reach out to the TF team over at Valve, and start a dialog on what Valve sees for comp over the next 8-12 months, what the community sees for comp over the next 8-12 months, and figure out how to bridge the gap.
that is literally b4nny, but only posts to his twitter.
[quote=micspam]
Well, in my mind, the first step is for a community figurehead to reach out to the TF team over at Valve, and start a dialog on what Valve sees for comp over the next 8-12 months, what the community sees for comp over the next 8-12 months, and figure out how to bridge the gap.[/quote]
that is literally b4nny, but only posts to his twitter.
Its really funny that this thread is being made just after we got MM
Its really funny that this thread is being made just after we got MM
y'know cause MM is what everyone said would make TF2 take off. for the next 3-6 months we really need to work with valve to fine tune 6s MM, not worry about 3rd party tournaments or anything else. Getting players playing 6s in any form would be the best thing we can do right now. I see the benefit of a hype tournament, but that seems unlikely to happen. I think a better focus of our energies as a shitposting entity should be complaining to valve about the user unfriendly aspects of MM. Make them put in tutorials, make ranking work, add placement matches, do things that makes horatio.martinez.2003 want to come back for more MM. As far as what individual players can do: play MM. Having streamers and community figures unifying into the MM system would be good for two reasons. 1st: pub players can play with recognized community leaders and streamers. When I was new, playing with harbleu and kev on teek made that server unique and interesting to me because these were good players that I'd heard/seen in casts. 2nd: it allows 6s players to provide feedback and player critique organically. I've basically done nothing but carry randoms in MM for 2 days now, and even if I get a bit abrasive in my comms the response has been positive because I've been showing players how they can be better 6s players. I've had a couple games where a 12 year old went from nervous to comming damage and pushes, and that's a super neat feeling. I hope it also feels good for the 12 year old to see a visible improvement like that in a single match. Hopefully, working in a lot of experienced players with new players in the MM system will make lightbulb moments happen for new players, and cause them to get hooked as they search for the next way to improve.
tl;dr: play MM for now
edit: give me those stupid clan tag things from CSGO too so I can rep ESEA_TF2 please valve tyty
y'know cause MM is what everyone said would make TF2 take off. for the next 3-6 months we really need to work with valve to fine tune 6s MM, not worry about 3rd party tournaments or anything else. Getting players [i]playing 6s[/i] in any form would be the best thing we can do right now. I see the benefit of a hype tournament, but that seems unlikely to happen. I think a better focus of our energies as a shitposting entity should be complaining to valve about the user unfriendly aspects of MM. Make them put in tutorials, make ranking work, add placement matches, do things that makes horatio.martinez.2003 want to come back for more MM. As far as what individual players can do: play MM. Having streamers and community figures unifying into the MM system would be good for two reasons. 1st: pub players can play with recognized community leaders and streamers. When I was new, playing with harbleu and kev on teek made that server unique and interesting to me because these were good players that I'd heard/seen in casts. 2nd: it allows 6s players to provide feedback and player critique organically. I've basically done nothing but carry randoms in MM for 2 days now, and even if I get a bit abrasive in my comms the response has been positive because I've been showing players how they can be better 6s players. I've had a couple games where a 12 year old went from nervous to comming damage and pushes, and that's a super neat feeling. I hope it also feels good for the 12 year old to see a visible improvement like that in a single match. Hopefully, working in a lot of experienced players with new players in the MM system will make lightbulb moments happen for new players, and cause them to get hooked as they search for the next way to improve.
tl;dr: play MM for now
edit: give me those stupid clan tag things from CSGO too so I can rep ESEA_TF2 please valve tyty
aim-sandblastkill the ugc 6's scene. make all the teams come to esea. 100+ teams in open right there.
they play ugc cause they have no money u fool
I have heard more people say UGC plantium is the highest level of tf2 more than I've heard ESEA invite
Some people just don't know ESEA is a thing
[quote=aim-][quote=sandblast]kill the ugc 6's scene. make all the teams come to esea. 100+ teams in open right there.[/quote]
they play ugc cause they have no money u fool[/quote]
I have heard more people say UGC plantium is the highest level of tf2 more than I've heard ESEA invite
Some people just don't know ESEA is a thing
flufaim-sandblastkill the ugc 6's scene. make all the teams come to esea. 100+ teams in open right there.
they play ugc cause they have no money u fool
I have heard more people say UGC plantium is the highest level of tf2 more than I've heard ESEA invite
Some people just don't know ESEA is a thing
I was guilty of this for a while. Until I entered the community, I had never heard of ESEA. I think a great way to get started is with Newbie Mixes and saam's tournament. If we could get Valve support (and by that I mean notices in-game) for Newbie Mixes and sign ups for the cup. If these occur, it could raise awareness for 6s and help raise players to the barrier of entry.
I think people know about comp tf2, but they think that they aren't good enough or teh barrier to entry is too high for them and feel intimidated. If people have an avenue for entering comp, they will be more inclined than the large disconnect from MM and ESEA/ETF2L
[quote=fluf][quote=aim-][quote=sandblast]kill the ugc 6's scene. make all the teams come to esea. 100+ teams in open right there.[/quote]
they play ugc cause they have no money u fool[/quote]
I have heard more people say UGC plantium is the highest level of tf2 more than I've heard ESEA invite
Some people just don't know ESEA is a thing[/quote]
I was guilty of this for a while. Until I entered the community, I had never heard of ESEA. I think a great way to get started is with Newbie Mixes and saam's tournament. If we could get Valve support (and by that I mean notices in-game) for Newbie Mixes and sign ups for the cup. If these occur, it could raise awareness for 6s and help raise players to the barrier of entry.
I think people know about comp tf2, but they think that they aren't good enough or teh barrier to entry is too high for them and feel intimidated. If people have an avenue for entering comp, they will be more inclined than the large disconnect from MM and ESEA/ETF2L
kKaltUuTF2Lobby
Lobbies are known for being shit. Wouldn't it be better to reccomend MixChamp to new players?
[quote=kKaltUu]TF2Lobby[/quote]
Lobbies are known for being shit. Wouldn't it be better to reccomend MixChamp to new players?
flufkKaltUuTF2Lobby
Lobbies are known for being shit. Wouldn't it be better to reccomend MixChamp to new players?
Mixchamp might be seen as too intimidating. They should try Newbie Mixes before MixChamp to get introduced to 6s.
[quote=fluf][quote=kKaltUu]TF2Lobby[/quote]
Lobbies are known for being shit. Wouldn't it be better to reccomend MixChamp to new players?[/quote]
Mixchamp might be seen as too intimidating. They should try Newbie Mixes before MixChamp to get introduced to 6s.
eeetl;dr: play MM for nowy
I agree. We've waited long for this and expected it as the passage to success and growth. I think we're going a bit too fast for now and need to slow down and start using what we have now, matchmaking.
Now I know we all have our problems with the Competitive MatchMaking right now in terms of viewmodels, configs, server regions and stuff. But in due time it is possible to cooperate with the TF2 team to get these things changed and fixed. It's best if many of us play the matchmaking now and start showing the appreciation we have for the TF2 team for working to get us this feature, and also as a way to make sure we have players playing it. It's important to make sure that the competitive MM mode isn't so bad that the queue times are too long and to make sure it's not a mode that's gonna die out in TF2 or become barely used(like I have no idea if people even play PASS time or whatnot that much or anymore). If MM dies, then we essentially failed to populate it despite wanting it after so long.
Which goes onto the next point. Populating it. Of course in a perfect TF2 world, we'd have the numbers that csgo has for queueing for competitive mode and things would be great. But of course we don't because we already lack a large playerbase IN COMPARISON to CSGO(I know that TF2 still has a large playerbase in comparison to multiple other games). It'd be cool to find people interested in competitive to try out the mode or find pubbers with great talent and skill to try it to possibly get into it. Advertising may help more or less, but it's definitely the least effort we could do. As many others suggested, maybe adding "| teamfortress.tv" or "| playcomp.tf" as a tag could work. When new players do come to teamfortress.tv to get into competitive, they might not know where to go or how to play it. I think it would help if enigma added a redirect button to a thread or playcomp.tf that says "New to competitive TF2? Click here!".
While a big tournament or Valve-sponsored tournament might help, Valve doesn't quite see the investment in TF2 quite yet or see much reason to at this point as many others have said. We have to give them a reason. It may be the dream, but we're not quite there yet. We have to keep playing and growing slowly and until we get there. What we could possibly do is put more work into Newbie Mixes, Mixchamp, getting into competitive guides, and much more. If we do want to do something on a small-scale for more "advertisement", we could have a couple of showmatches and fun events.
Ultimately what we should do is: Keep playing matchmaking(and not be toxic to give a more positive experience), give more feedback(even if it's just wanting viewmodel commands, it'll show how much more of the playerbase wants it), advertise a bit, guide new players, and have fun because that's why we're here.
[quote=eee]tl;dr: play MM for nowy[/quote]
I agree. We've waited long for this and expected it as the passage to success and growth. I think we're going a bit too fast for now and need to slow down and start using what we have now, matchmaking.
Now I know we all have our problems with the Competitive MatchMaking right now in terms of viewmodels, configs, server regions and stuff. But in due time it is possible to cooperate with the TF2 team to get these things changed and fixed. It's best if many of us play the matchmaking now and start showing the appreciation we have for the TF2 team for working to get us this feature, and also as a way to make sure we have players playing it. It's important to make sure that the competitive MM mode isn't so bad that the queue times are too long and to make sure it's not a mode that's gonna die out in TF2 or become barely used(like I have no idea if people even play PASS time or whatnot that much or anymore). If MM dies, then we essentially failed to populate it despite wanting it after so long.
Which goes onto the next point. Populating it. Of course in a perfect TF2 world, we'd have the numbers that csgo has for queueing for competitive mode and things would be great. But of course we don't because we already lack a large playerbase IN COMPARISON to CSGO(I know that TF2 still has a large playerbase in comparison to multiple other games). It'd be cool to find people interested in competitive to try out the mode or find pubbers with great talent and skill to try it to possibly get into it. Advertising may help more or less, but it's definitely the least effort we could do. As many others suggested, maybe adding "| teamfortress.tv" or "| playcomp.tf" as a tag could work. When new players do come to teamfortress.tv to get into competitive, they might not know where to go or how to play it. I think it would help if enigma added a redirect button to a thread or playcomp.tf that says "New to competitive TF2? Click here!".
While a big tournament or Valve-sponsored tournament might help, Valve doesn't quite see the investment in TF2 quite yet or see much reason to at this point as many others have said. We have to give them a reason. It may be the dream, but we're not quite there yet. We have to keep playing and growing slowly and until we get there. What we could possibly do is put more work into Newbie Mixes, Mixchamp, getting into competitive guides, and much more. If we do want to do something on a small-scale for more "advertisement", we could have a couple of showmatches and fun events.
Ultimately what we should do is: Keep playing matchmaking(and not be toxic to give a more positive experience), give more feedback(even if it's just wanting viewmodel commands, it'll show how much more of the playerbase wants it), advertise a bit, guide new players, and have fun because that's why we're here.
make a 2 class limit across all classes in tf2 matchmaking to start off with, that way it's distinguished from a 6v6 pub with an elo rating. 6 scouts running crit a cola to mid is not a representation of competitive play
make a 2 class limit across all classes in tf2 matchmaking to start off with, that way it's distinguished from a 6v6 pub with an elo rating. 6 scouts running crit a cola to mid is not a representation of competitive play
Imagine if Valve threw in 50k-100k and added a compendium like in Dota to help add to and crowdfund the prize pool for i58 or some other tournament
Imagine if Valve threw in 50k-100k and added a compendium like in Dota to help add to and crowdfund the prize pool for i58 or some other tournament
I don't know why people keep throwing around this idea of having a valve sponsored major for tf2. If there was a tournament next month sponsored by Valve with say 100k prize pool it would be fucking awful. Skill level in tf2 is probably at its biggest low point and if we're being honest and viewing tf2 as a game, compared to cs/ow/dota etc. and not through our own biased perspective, is a complete fucking mess. A decent portion of weapons aren't allowed and most of the ones that are just aren't used because they're completely useless. Do you really think if Valve sponsored a major they would ban half of their own weapons from being used and impose class limits?
People here still seem to think of tf2 as our own corrupted version (whitelists, class limits etc.) of it when in reality that's not the case for 90% of people. On top of that TF2 mm is still in it's infancy and tbh doesn't seem to work very well, so imagine we have Joe Bloggs your average twitch user who sees this supposed 100k tournament and decided to jump into matchmaking and gets fucked by the crit a cola while having 20fps after waiting 20 minutes to find a game.
tldr fix the game then worry about tournaments/player base.
I don't know why people keep throwing around this idea of having a valve sponsored major for tf2. If there was a tournament next month sponsored by Valve with say 100k prize pool it would be fucking awful. Skill level in tf2 is probably at its biggest low point and if we're being honest and viewing tf2 as a game, compared to cs/ow/dota etc. and not through our own biased perspective, is a complete fucking mess. A decent portion of weapons aren't allowed and most of the ones that are just aren't used because they're completely useless. Do you really think if Valve sponsored a major they would ban half of their own weapons from being used and impose class limits?
People here still seem to think of tf2 as our own corrupted version (whitelists, class limits etc.) of it when in reality that's not the case for 90% of people. On top of that TF2 mm is still in it's infancy and tbh doesn't seem to work very well, so imagine we have Joe Bloggs your average twitch user who sees this supposed 100k tournament and decided to jump into matchmaking and gets fucked by the crit a cola while having 20fps after waiting 20 minutes to find a game.
tldr fix the game then worry about tournaments/player base.
kosgreat points
great points
i do have the pipe dream but realize we're talking macro scale here and that we will have to be very patient
[quote=kos]great points[/quote]
great points
i do have the pipe dream but realize we're talking macro scale here and that we will have to be very patient
I think that one way to spread the word about esea is to have more esea players *actively* looking for newer players to guide. For example, go to the truetf2 subreddit or the UGC forums and answer questions. When you play MM, watch for people who have questions and concerns about the format, tell them that comp players are talking about the same things and looking for solutions here on tftv.
Also, I wanna write an esea/open FAQ since the site itself is so lacking in that area, at least as far as TF2 is concerned. If you remember things that confused you when you were first getting started, PM me to make sure they're included. I'll definitely be covering at least the following: how much it actually costs to play a season in total, where you go to pay, how to cancel recurring payments on paypal, how match scheduling works, and how to watch matches.
Show Content
flufI have heard more people say UGC plantium is the highest level of tf2 more than I've heard ESEA invite
Some people just don't know ESEA is a thing
Hahaha it's so true. I was playing matchmaking yesterday, and we ran into this group of tagged up new players several times. We'd beaten them every time, and they were like, "Omg what div are u." We said open and IM, but they stalked Percy's profile, saw that she was rostered as a plat sniper, and said, "HOLY SHIT UR IN PLAT WOW."
I remember being totally new in UGC and thinking that "invite" was somehow related to when a UGC roster said "invited" between seasons. -__-
I think that one way to spread the word about esea is to have more esea players *actively* looking for newer players to guide. For example, go to the truetf2 subreddit or the UGC forums and answer questions. When you play MM, watch for people who have questions and concerns about the format, tell them that comp players are talking about the same things and looking for solutions here on tftv.
Also, I wanna write an esea/open FAQ since the site itself is so lacking in that area, at least as far as TF2 is concerned. If you remember things that confused you when you were first getting started, PM me to make sure they're included. I'll definitely be covering at least the following: how much it actually costs to play a season in total, where you go to pay, how to cancel recurring payments on paypal, how match scheduling works, and how to watch matches.
[spoiler][quote=fluf]
I have heard more people say UGC plantium is the highest level of tf2 more than I've heard ESEA invite
Some people just don't know ESEA is a thing[/quote]
Hahaha it's so true. I was playing matchmaking yesterday, and we ran into this group of tagged up new players several times. We'd beaten them every time, and they were like, "Omg what div are u." We said open and IM, but they stalked Percy's profile, saw that she was rostered as a plat sniper, and said, "HOLY SHIT UR IN PLAT WOW."
I remember being totally new in UGC and thinking that "invite" was somehow related to when a UGC roster said "invited" between seasons. -__-[/spoiler]
GetawhaleImagine if Valve threw in 50k-100k and added a compendium like in Dota to help add to and crowdfund the prize pool for i58 or some other tournament
tbh if the game was at the point where we could support this we wouldn't be at the point where we needed Valve's money in the first place
[quote=Getawhale]Imagine if Valve threw in 50k-100k and added a compendium like in Dota to help add to and crowdfund the prize pool for i58 or some other tournament[/quote]
tbh if the game was at the point where we could support this we wouldn't be at the point where we needed Valve's money in the first place
Smesibuying items related to the comp scene, like stickers and team-related skins, would be cool for the people that play comp and i'll attract quite a few people into comp.
I actually asked b4nny about this on his stream once not too long ago, about stickers or something to that tune to help fund I-series or something to that extent. To my understanding the way he put it it'll take a while of playerbase growth and comp interest before we see official support for teams in this way.
[quote=Smesi]buying items related to the comp scene, like stickers and team-related skins, would be cool for the people that play comp and i'll attract quite a few people into comp.[/quote]
I actually asked b4nny about this on his stream once not too long ago, about stickers or something to that tune to help fund I-series or something to that extent. To my understanding the way he put it it'll take a while of playerbase growth and comp interest before we see official support for teams in this way.