Servers are doing strange things. Will fix when I get home from work.
PugChamp
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Some MixChamp server keep dying and you can't re addup because the site thinks you're still in a game. This happened to me yesterday too.
http://i.imgur.com/1WqCdqI.png
edit: I should add that this goes on for a while, It's been at least 30 minutes since the server crashed and I still can't add up.
Some MixChamp server keep dying and you can't re addup because the site thinks you're still in a game. This happened to me yesterday too. [img]http://i.imgur.com/1WqCdqI.png[/img]
edit: I should add that this goes on for a while, It's been at least 30 minutes since the server crashed and I still can't add up.
edit: I should add that this goes on for a while, It's been at least 30 minutes since the server crashed and I still can't add up.
Servers were updated. If something happens with mixchamp, you just have to go on the main site and @ one of the admins (they have a hammer). It should be good to go now.
Servers were updated. If something happens with mixchamp, you just have to go on the main site and @ one of the admins (they have a hammer). It should be good to go now.
erynnServers were updated. If something happens with mixchamp, you just have to go on the main site and @ one of the admins (they have a hammer). It should be good to go now.
Sorry I couldn't figure out how to contact an admin! Good to know thanks!
[quote=erynn]Servers were updated. If something happens with mixchamp, you just have to go on the main site and @ one of the admins (they have a hammer). It should be good to go now.[/quote]
Sorry I couldn't figure out how to contact an admin! Good to know thanks!
Sorry I couldn't figure out how to contact an admin! Good to know thanks!
HEY TSC CAN YOU MAKE THE PRE-READY 3 MINUTES LIKE TF2 CENTER PLEASE? (OR MAYBE EVEN LONGER?????????)
Show Content
i've been afk'd from one too many pugs for going to the bathroom for literally 2 minutes during what i thought was picking but what was evidently tatuwah running out the clock and aborting the pug
like the way it was handled on irc was completely fine:
if you haven't said anything in chat (which would be interpreted on this site as, if you haven't clicked on anything or hovered over anythign or w.e.) for something like 5 minutes, it made you type !ready in chat (clicking the ready button), but otherwise when you type !add (click a class to add) it assumed you WEREN'T afk
the key difference here is that system assumed people were actually intending to pug when they added up whereas this site basically does anything it can to restrict people from playing (you still have to ready up even if you just readied and a pug got ended, you need to ready even if you just added up, etc.)
to make even more clear what I think the system should be:
have it check if any given user has done anything on the site for the past 5 minutes (maybe 3 minutes you decide)
if they have then put them in ready automatically (as if they clicked the button, so now it says click to un-ready)
if they haven't then say they're AFK somehow and make it clear they need to ready up
if someone hits pre-ready it should last for an actual amount of time (3-5 minutes) so that people don't have to be staring at the site for literally 10 minutes waiting for a pug to start (with captains timing it out, getting fatkidded and having to ready to the next pug, etc.)
it also should only alert people that their pre-ready has expired if the draft is not in progress it doesn't help to know "your pre-ready has expired" halfway through the picking of a pug lol
either copy tf2center or the irc bots, PLEASE for the love of god change it because the current system is way too restrictive/arbitrary (not to mention the fact that you STILL after almost a year have yet to impliment a force-add or force-end pug option and make people wait out the entire timer to end the pug and then are restricted...... you shouldn't be punished for the dev's autism/laziness in not actually creating a fully functional site)
like the way it was handled on irc was completely fine:
if you haven't said anything in chat (which would be interpreted on this site as, if you haven't clicked on anything or hovered over anythign or w.e.) for something like 5 minutes, it made you type !ready in chat (clicking the ready button), but otherwise when you type !add (click a class to add) it assumed you WEREN'T afk
the key difference here is that system assumed people were actually intending to pug when they added up whereas this site basically does anything it can to restrict people from playing (you still have to ready up even if you just readied and a pug got ended, you need to ready even if you just added up, etc.)
to make even more clear what I think the system should be:
have it check if any given user has done anything on the site for the past 5 minutes (maybe 3 minutes you decide)
if they have then put them in ready automatically (as if they clicked the button, so now it says click to un-ready)
if they haven't then say they're AFK somehow and make it clear they need to ready up
if someone hits pre-ready it should last for an actual amount of time (3-5 minutes) so that people don't have to be staring at the site for literally 10 minutes waiting for a pug to start (with captains timing it out, getting fatkidded and having to ready to the next pug, etc.)
it also should only alert people that their pre-ready has expired if the draft is not in progress it doesn't help to know "your pre-ready has expired" halfway through the picking of a pug lol
either copy tf2center or the irc bots, PLEASE for the love of god change it because the current system is way too restrictive/arbitrary (not to mention the fact that you STILL after almost a year have yet to impliment a force-add or force-end pug option and make people wait out the entire timer to end the pug and then are restricted...... you shouldn't be punished for the dev's autism/laziness in not actually creating a fully functional site)
HEY TSC CAN YOU MAKE THE PRE-READY 3 MINUTES LIKE TF2 CENTER PLEASE? (OR MAYBE EVEN LONGER?????????)
[spoiler]
i've been afk'd from one too many pugs for going to the bathroom for literally 2 minutes during what i thought was picking but what was evidently tatuwah running out the clock and aborting the pug
like the way it was handled on irc was completely fine:
if you haven't said anything in chat (which would be interpreted on this site as, if you haven't clicked on anything or hovered over anythign or w.e.) for something like 5 minutes, it made you type !ready in chat (clicking the ready button), but otherwise when you type !add (click a class to add) it assumed you WEREN'T afk
the key difference here is that system assumed people were actually intending to pug when they added up whereas this site basically does anything it can to restrict people from playing (you still have to ready up even if you just readied and a pug got ended, you need to ready even if you just added up, etc.)
to make even more clear what I think the system should be:
have it check if any given user has done anything on the site for the past 5 minutes (maybe 3 minutes you decide)
if they have then put them in ready automatically (as if they clicked the button, so now it says click to un-ready)
if they haven't then say they're AFK somehow and make it clear they need to ready up
if someone hits pre-ready it should last for an actual amount of time (3-5 minutes) so that people don't have to be staring at the site for literally 10 minutes waiting for a pug to start (with captains timing it out, getting fatkidded and having to ready to the next pug, etc.)
it also should only alert people that their pre-ready has expired if the draft is not in progress it doesn't help to know "your pre-ready has expired" halfway through the picking of a pug lol
either copy tf2center or the irc bots, PLEASE for the love of god change it because the current system is way too restrictive/arbitrary (not to mention the fact that you STILL after almost a year have yet to impliment a force-add or force-end pug option and make people wait out the entire timer to end the pug and then are restricted...... you shouldn't be punished for the dev's autism/laziness in not actually creating a fully functional site)[/spoiler]
[spoiler]
i've been afk'd from one too many pugs for going to the bathroom for literally 2 minutes during what i thought was picking but what was evidently tatuwah running out the clock and aborting the pug
like the way it was handled on irc was completely fine:
if you haven't said anything in chat (which would be interpreted on this site as, if you haven't clicked on anything or hovered over anythign or w.e.) for something like 5 minutes, it made you type !ready in chat (clicking the ready button), but otherwise when you type !add (click a class to add) it assumed you WEREN'T afk
the key difference here is that system assumed people were actually intending to pug when they added up whereas this site basically does anything it can to restrict people from playing (you still have to ready up even if you just readied and a pug got ended, you need to ready even if you just added up, etc.)
to make even more clear what I think the system should be:
have it check if any given user has done anything on the site for the past 5 minutes (maybe 3 minutes you decide)
if they have then put them in ready automatically (as if they clicked the button, so now it says click to un-ready)
if they haven't then say they're AFK somehow and make it clear they need to ready up
if someone hits pre-ready it should last for an actual amount of time (3-5 minutes) so that people don't have to be staring at the site for literally 10 minutes waiting for a pug to start (with captains timing it out, getting fatkidded and having to ready to the next pug, etc.)
it also should only alert people that their pre-ready has expired if the draft is not in progress it doesn't help to know "your pre-ready has expired" halfway through the picking of a pug lol
either copy tf2center or the irc bots, PLEASE for the love of god change it because the current system is way too restrictive/arbitrary (not to mention the fact that you STILL after almost a year have yet to impliment a force-add or force-end pug option and make people wait out the entire timer to end the pug and then are restricted...... you shouldn't be punished for the dev's autism/laziness in not actually creating a fully functional site)[/spoiler]
bearodactylHEY TSC CAN YOU MAKE THE PRE-READY 3 MINUTES LIKE TF2 CENTER PLEASE? (OR MAYBE EVEN LONGER?????????)
Pre-ready is 5 minutes and has been for the past month. I will see about making it more 'opt out' then 'opt in' but I guarantee you are going to see 'i forgot to unadd' happen a lot more. We will have to see if this is feasible first.
As for restricting for timing out a draft: That has been a huge problem. There are tons of people that abuse timeouts because they get outpicked, or didn't get their pick that they wanted and then claim "oh, woops". Do you have a suggestion on how to deal with that?
Force ends are in the works. Time has been an issue. We both have full time jobs/other things going on so I apologize for our 'laziness'.
[quote=bearodactyl]HEY TSC CAN YOU MAKE THE PRE-READY 3 MINUTES LIKE TF2 CENTER PLEASE? (OR MAYBE EVEN LONGER?????????)[/quote]
Pre-ready is 5 minutes and has been for the past month. I will see about making it more 'opt out' then 'opt in' but I guarantee you are going to see 'i forgot to unadd' happen a lot more. We will have to see if this is feasible first.
As for restricting for timing out a draft: That has been a huge problem. There are tons of people that abuse timeouts because they get outpicked, or didn't get their pick that they wanted and then claim "oh, woops". Do you have a suggestion on how to deal with that?
Force ends are in the works. Time has been an issue. We both have full time jobs/other things going on so I apologize for our 'laziness'.
Pre-ready is 5 minutes and has been for the past month. I will see about making it more 'opt out' then 'opt in' but I guarantee you are going to see 'i forgot to unadd' happen a lot more. We will have to see if this is feasible first.
As for restricting for timing out a draft: That has been a huge problem. There are tons of people that abuse timeouts because they get outpicked, or didn't get their pick that they wanted and then claim "oh, woops". Do you have a suggestion on how to deal with that?
Force ends are in the works. Time has been an issue. We both have full time jobs/other things going on so I apologize for our 'laziness'.
Can you use the newest version of sunshine? (The one that got released in the MyM update)
NA might still be using the older version in ESEA and whatever but maybe just for us EU loosers ?
Can you use the newest version of sunshine? (The one that got released in the MyM update)
NA might still be using the older version in ESEA and whatever but maybe just for us EU loosers ?
NA might still be using the older version in ESEA and whatever but maybe just for us EU loosers ?
CollaideCan you use the newest version of sunshine? (The one that got released in the MyM update)
NA might still be using the older version in ESEA and whatever but maybe just for us EU loosers ?
Yes. This will most likely happen this weekend.
[quote=Collaide]Can you use the newest version of sunshine? (The one that got released in the MyM update)
NA might still be using the older version in ESEA and whatever but maybe just for us EU loosers ?[/quote]
Yes. This will most likely happen this weekend.
NA might still be using the older version in ESEA and whatever but maybe just for us EU loosers ?[/quote]
Yes. This will most likely happen this weekend.
erynnCollaideCan you use the newest version of sunshine? (The one that got released in the MyM update)
NA might still be using the older version in ESEA and whatever but maybe just for us EU loosers ?
Yes. This will most likely happen this weekend.
10/10 thanks
[quote=erynn][quote=Collaide]Can you use the newest version of sunshine? (The one that got released in the MyM update)
NA might still be using the older version in ESEA and whatever but maybe just for us EU loosers ?[/quote]
Yes. This will most likely happen this weekend.[/quote]
10/10 thanks
NA might still be using the older version in ESEA and whatever but maybe just for us EU loosers ?[/quote]
Yes. This will most likely happen this weekend.[/quote]
10/10 thanks
can we also get rid of elo? I remember your admin team all basically agreed to removing it a couple of months ago, yet nothing was done. They even went and made a well written argument with a list of reasons why elo is a negative influence on pugs and how they would be better off without it, but its still a core part of the site it seems.
can we also get rid of elo? I remember your admin team all basically agreed to removing it a couple of months ago, yet nothing was done. They even went and made a well written argument with a list of reasons why elo is a negative influence on pugs and how they would be better off without it, but its still a core part of the site it seems.
frootcan we also get rid of elo? I remember your admin team all basically agreed to removing it a couple of months ago, yet nothing was done. They even went and made a well written argument with a list of reasons why elo is a negative influence on pugs and how they would be better off without it, but its still a core part of the site it seems.
well from my pug exprience athe the prime hours when there is a large pool of players to choose from people actually take it seriously, no one wants to pick a shit team just to play with people they like because the people he chooses will actually get upset for not picking the most competitive team. and more likely because people don't want to lose elo, although at the first month of pugchamp in europe a lot more people played and it was more serious because people knew if they have high elo they could get into Pro.PugChamp
[quote=froot]can we also get rid of elo? I remember your admin team all basically agreed to removing it a couple of months ago, yet nothing was done. They even went and made a well written argument with a list of reasons why elo is a negative influence on pugs and how they would be better off without it, but its still a core part of the site it seems.[/quote]
well from my pug exprience athe the prime hours when there is a large pool of players to choose from people actually take it seriously, no one wants to pick a shit team just to play with people they like because the people he chooses will actually get upset for not picking the most competitive team. and more likely because people don't want to lose elo, although at the first month of pugchamp in europe a lot more people played and it was more serious because people knew if they have high elo they could get into Pro.PugChamp
well from my pug exprience athe the prime hours when there is a large pool of players to choose from people actually take it seriously, no one wants to pick a shit team just to play with people they like because the people he chooses will actually get upset for not picking the most competitive team. and more likely because people don't want to lose elo, although at the first month of pugchamp in europe a lot more people played and it was more serious because people knew if they have high elo they could get into Pro.PugChamp
shorasWithout elo no one would be playing seriously.
it literally does not matter if elo is there or not because tf2 is such a small community, everyone p much knows the skill levels of people who frequent the site even if there wasent an elo attached to their name
[quote=shoras]Without elo no one would be playing seriously.[/quote]
it literally does not matter if elo is there or not because tf2 is such a small community, everyone p much knows the skill levels of people who frequent the site even if there wasent an elo attached to their name
it literally does not matter if elo is there or not because tf2 is such a small community, everyone p much knows the skill levels of people who frequent the site even if there wasent an elo attached to their name
The only reason ELO would need to be a thing is if the Pro League was a thing, which it is not, at least in North America. Plus, losing when there's ELO involved generally has a much worse feeling than losing when there is nothing at stake. It discourages players from adding up if they don't think they can win the pug.
I'm just gonna go ahead and quote what Skye posted three months ago; most of it is still accurate.
Show Content
SkyeJokes aside, there have been a ton of complaints about the flaws in the ELO system. After the beta testing last week, we discussed the general problems. The result was this giant wall of text that I put in the admin channel, but I’ll cross-post it here to show you guys what Erynn and TSC are trying to fix.
- ELO can represent a player in a matchmaking setting, but in pugs, players are cherry-picked by captains. Players are not being matched up against the entire pool of puggers - they are selectively adding up to pugs of different skill levels, and being picked by captains of different skill levels. Captains already split up the skill level of players.
- Pugs of differing skill levels happen at certain times of the day. Open pugs happen in the afternoon, invite pugs happen at night, and late-late-night pugs are made up of the same group of 13-15 night-owls. Because of this pattern, players who play exclusively late-night pugs will end up with a lower rating (playing against the best players), and players who play in afternoon pugs will have an inflated rating. Players also “farm” their ELO in afternoon pugs to artificially boost their rating.
- The TF2 community is small enough that most players know each other – this is especially true on a pug website with a small pool of similarly skilled players. Good captains have knowledge of the players they want to pick. They know the skill division of each player, and the class they main. They know who the trolls are and the players who won’t play their mains seriously. Thus, captains generally disregard ELO in their picking process. (In fact, captains sometimes choose to pick players with a lower rating on classes like medic, so their team will gain more ELO if they win or tie).
- Players’ obsession with their ELO makes pugs toxic. In close games, players are more likely to remain on offclasses during a last hold, instead of switching off to push out. They would rather let a five minute map timer run down than try to play the game, to ensure ELO gain. Stalemates become more prevalent as people slow the game down for the W.
- Players are less likely to add up or captain. In scenarios where a dozen bad players are waiting to play, skilled players refuse to add up so they won’t lose ELO due to getting picked early.
- Captains are discouraged from picking balanced teams. In the old pug systems, some captains picked players to ensure a balanced, fun game. With the current ELO system, captains must pick to win.
- Players get locked into their rank. Losing the first few games pushes ELO down incredibly quickly and the deviation keeps players at a low rank. (Erynn pointed out that this will be easily fixed by resetting deviation every now and then.
Obviously, there are good things about the ELO system. Players who might usually troll are forced to try harder. Captain ELO is also a wonderful idea. If your captain is bad, your team is automatically at a disadvantage – your captain is your first pick. Giving good captains priority in queue makes the draft a more painless experience.
We were thinking about alternatives like a round-win ratio, or class-specific stats pulled from logs.tf, or hidden ELO for subbing. Giving invite players more ELO is a temporary fix until something better is implemented.
The only reason ELO would need to be a thing is if the Pro League was a thing, which it is not, at least in North America. Plus, losing when there's ELO involved generally has a much worse feeling than losing when there is nothing at stake. It discourages players from adding up if they don't think they can win the pug.
I'm just gonna go ahead and quote what Skye posted three months ago; most of it is still accurate.
[spoiler][quote=Skye]Jokes aside, there have been a ton of complaints about the flaws in the ELO system. After the beta testing last week, we discussed the general problems. The result was this giant wall of text that I put in the admin channel, but I’ll cross-post it here to show you guys what Erynn and TSC are trying to fix.
[olist]
[*] ELO can represent a player in a matchmaking setting, but in pugs, players are cherry-picked by captains. Players are not being matched up against the entire pool of puggers - they are selectively adding up to pugs of different skill levels, and being picked by captains of different skill levels. Captains already split up the skill level of players.
[*] Pugs of differing skill levels happen at certain times of the day. Open pugs happen in the afternoon, invite pugs happen at night, and late-late-night pugs are made up of the same group of 13-15 night-owls. Because of this pattern, players who play exclusively late-night pugs will end up with a lower rating (playing against the best players), and players who play in afternoon pugs will have an inflated rating. Players also “farm” their ELO in afternoon pugs to artificially boost their rating.
[*] The TF2 community is small enough that most players know each other – this is especially true on a pug website with a small pool of similarly skilled players. Good captains have knowledge of the players they want to pick. They know the skill division of each player, and the class they main. They know who the trolls are and the players who won’t play their mains seriously. Thus, captains generally disregard ELO in their picking process. (In fact, captains sometimes choose to pick players with a lower rating on classes like medic, so their team will gain more ELO if they win or tie).
[*] Players’ obsession with their ELO makes pugs toxic. In close games, players are more likely to remain on offclasses during a last hold, instead of switching off to push out. They would rather let a five minute map timer run down than try to play the game, to ensure ELO gain. Stalemates become more prevalent as people slow the game down for the W.
[*] Players are less likely to add up or captain. In scenarios where a dozen bad players are waiting to play, skilled players refuse to add up so they won’t lose ELO due to getting picked early.
[*] Captains are discouraged from picking balanced teams. In the old pug systems, some captains picked players to ensure a balanced, fun game. With the current ELO system, captains must pick to win.
[*] Players get locked into their rank. Losing the first few games pushes ELO down incredibly quickly and the deviation keeps players at a low rank. (Erynn pointed out that this will be easily fixed by resetting deviation every now and then. [/olist]
Obviously, there are good things about the ELO system. Players who might usually troll are forced to try harder. Captain ELO is also a wonderful idea. If your captain is bad, your team is automatically at a disadvantage – your captain is your first pick. Giving good captains priority in queue makes the draft a more painless experience.
We were thinking about alternatives like a round-win ratio, or class-specific stats pulled from logs.tf, or hidden ELO for subbing. Giving invite players more ELO is a temporary fix until something better is implemented.[/quote][/spoiler]
I'm just gonna go ahead and quote what Skye posted three months ago; most of it is still accurate.
[spoiler][quote=Skye]Jokes aside, there have been a ton of complaints about the flaws in the ELO system. After the beta testing last week, we discussed the general problems. The result was this giant wall of text that I put in the admin channel, but I’ll cross-post it here to show you guys what Erynn and TSC are trying to fix.
[olist]
[*] ELO can represent a player in a matchmaking setting, but in pugs, players are cherry-picked by captains. Players are not being matched up against the entire pool of puggers - they are selectively adding up to pugs of different skill levels, and being picked by captains of different skill levels. Captains already split up the skill level of players.
[*] Pugs of differing skill levels happen at certain times of the day. Open pugs happen in the afternoon, invite pugs happen at night, and late-late-night pugs are made up of the same group of 13-15 night-owls. Because of this pattern, players who play exclusively late-night pugs will end up with a lower rating (playing against the best players), and players who play in afternoon pugs will have an inflated rating. Players also “farm” their ELO in afternoon pugs to artificially boost their rating.
[*] The TF2 community is small enough that most players know each other – this is especially true on a pug website with a small pool of similarly skilled players. Good captains have knowledge of the players they want to pick. They know the skill division of each player, and the class they main. They know who the trolls are and the players who won’t play their mains seriously. Thus, captains generally disregard ELO in their picking process. (In fact, captains sometimes choose to pick players with a lower rating on classes like medic, so their team will gain more ELO if they win or tie).
[*] Players’ obsession with their ELO makes pugs toxic. In close games, players are more likely to remain on offclasses during a last hold, instead of switching off to push out. They would rather let a five minute map timer run down than try to play the game, to ensure ELO gain. Stalemates become more prevalent as people slow the game down for the W.
[*] Players are less likely to add up or captain. In scenarios where a dozen bad players are waiting to play, skilled players refuse to add up so they won’t lose ELO due to getting picked early.
[*] Captains are discouraged from picking balanced teams. In the old pug systems, some captains picked players to ensure a balanced, fun game. With the current ELO system, captains must pick to win.
[*] Players get locked into their rank. Losing the first few games pushes ELO down incredibly quickly and the deviation keeps players at a low rank. (Erynn pointed out that this will be easily fixed by resetting deviation every now and then. [/olist]
Obviously, there are good things about the ELO system. Players who might usually troll are forced to try harder. Captain ELO is also a wonderful idea. If your captain is bad, your team is automatically at a disadvantage – your captain is your first pick. Giving good captains priority in queue makes the draft a more painless experience.
We were thinking about alternatives like a round-win ratio, or class-specific stats pulled from logs.tf, or hidden ELO for subbing. Giving invite players more ELO is a temporary fix until something better is implemented.[/quote][/spoiler]
with elo people have been more toxic and play to win/care about getting a star. I've still played pugs where people have thrown purposely and where people don't dick around and play to win but they do it for reasons outside of elo. The community is still a bit too small to have elo be a thing
with elo people have been more toxic and play to win/care about getting a star. I've still played pugs where people have thrown purposely and where people don't dick around and play to win but they do it for reasons outside of elo. The community is still a bit too small to have elo be a thing
atmwith elo people have been more toxic and play to win/care about getting a star. I've still played pugs where people have thrown purposely and where people don't dick around and play to win but they do it for reasons outside of elo. The community is still a bit too small to have elo be a thing
I believe people SHOULD play to win and that elo encourages this.
[quote=atm]with elo people have been more toxic and play to win/care about getting a star. I've still played pugs where people have thrown purposely and where people don't dick around and play to win but they do it for reasons outside of elo. The community is still a bit too small to have elo be a thing[/quote]
I believe people SHOULD play to win and that elo encourages this.
I believe people SHOULD play to win and that elo encourages this.
Playing to win - which is a good thing - is different from sitting on last with a sentry gun and a bunch of offclasses for the last five minutes of a pug. ELO tends to encourage the latter.
Also, players who mess around and inappropriately offclass still get manually restricted by admins, whether it's on pugchamp or (speaking from memory) older pug sites like pugme and pugna. Seems to me like it would be the same with or without skill ratings.
Playing to win - which is a good thing - is different from sitting on last with a sentry gun and a bunch of offclasses for the last five minutes of a pug. ELO tends to encourage the latter.
Also, players who mess around and inappropriately offclass still get manually restricted by admins, whether it's on pugchamp or (speaking from memory) older pug sites like pugme and pugna. Seems to me like it would be the same with or without skill ratings.
Also, players who mess around and inappropriately offclass still get manually restricted by admins, whether it's on pugchamp or (speaking from memory) older pug sites like pugme and pugna. Seems to me like it would be the same with or without skill ratings.
ELO also prevents plr_hightower mains from ruining the experience for everyone else. Nobody will pick someone with 700 elo willingly.
ELO also prevents plr_hightower mains from ruining the experience for everyone else. Nobody will pick someone with 700 elo willingly.
Thus far, the only actual points I've seen that argues for why an ELO system should exist in PugChamp are as follows:
1) ELO serves as an extrinsic motivator to encourage players to always play to the best of their ability.
2) ELO is used as a performance metric to gauge whether players should be promoted into the *currently unreleased* Pro-League.
For 1), why is ELO the only way to motivate players to want to win? I actually believe many players desire intrinsically to win, regardless of external factors. Many people here are naturally competitive, and that competitive spirit drives players to chase after victory. In contrast, players who simply don't care to try in unfavorable scenarios cannot be made to, even with the presence of an ELO system. I've seen many games where players simply start trolling or even dodging queues just because they've stopped caring on the "losing" side. ELO explicitly deepens the zero-sum scenario, because now there's a cost associated with losing. There are alternatives to encourage players to want to win if their own competitive drive doesn't exist. I actually extensively enjoy casual MM over competitive right now because I only gain ranks for winning, but never lose ranks for losing. I still care enough to want to win, but not enough to just do what Skye mentioned:
Skyesitting on last with a sentry gun and a bunch of offclasses for the last five minutes of a pug.
For 2), in its current state ELO does not in any accurate manner measure the abilities of the players in the PugChamp ecosystem. I know this because I'm 2k ELO and there are plenty of players that are better than me with lower ELO. This is because I almost never get picked in high IM/invite level pugs, so my ELO is relatively unaffected by players who would largely dominate me. Instead, I only play in lower level pugs where I know the odds are relatively in my favor. It doesn't make sense to me that I can farm ELO exclusively without ever getting matched up in a game against players with similar ELO who are actually significantly better than me. In a sense there's two separate ELO pools that are circulated -- one amongst the lower players, and one amongst the invite players. If the two groups never mix, I don't really see how ELO would ever accurately measure which players should play in a "pro-league".
In short, ELO isn't great and several PugChamp admins have already voiced their concerns about it. There aren't strong arguments for why we need it, and plenty of arguments for why it actually hurts more than it help, at least when exposed directly to players.
Thus far, the only actual points I've seen that argues for why an ELO system should exist in PugChamp are as follows:
1) ELO serves as an extrinsic motivator to encourage players to always play to the best of their ability.
2) ELO is used as a performance metric to gauge whether players should be promoted into the *currently unreleased* Pro-League.
For 1), why is ELO the only way to motivate players to want to win? I actually believe many players desire intrinsically to win, regardless of external factors. Many people here are naturally competitive, and that competitive spirit drives players to chase after victory. In contrast, players who simply don't care to try in unfavorable scenarios cannot be made to, even with the presence of an ELO system. I've seen many games where players simply start trolling or even dodging queues just because they've stopped caring on the "losing" side. ELO explicitly deepens the zero-sum scenario, because now there's a cost associated with losing. There are alternatives to encourage players to want to win if their own competitive drive doesn't exist. I actually extensively enjoy casual MM over competitive right now because I only gain ranks for winning, but never lose ranks for losing. I still care enough to want to win, but not enough to just do what Skye mentioned:
[quote=Skye]sitting on last with a sentry gun and a bunch of offclasses for the last five minutes of a pug.
[/quote]
For 2), in its current state ELO does not in any accurate manner measure the abilities of the players in the PugChamp ecosystem. I know this because I'm 2k ELO and there are plenty of players that are better than me with lower ELO. This is because I almost never get picked in high IM/invite level pugs, so my ELO is relatively unaffected by players who would largely dominate me. Instead, I only play in lower level pugs where I know the odds are relatively in my favor. It doesn't make sense to me that I can farm ELO exclusively without ever getting matched up in a game against players with similar ELO who are actually significantly better than me. In a sense there's two separate ELO pools that are circulated -- one amongst the lower players, and one amongst the invite players. If the two groups never mix, I don't really see how ELO would ever accurately measure which players should play in a "pro-league".
In short, ELO isn't great and several PugChamp admins have already voiced their concerns about it. There aren't strong arguments for why we need it, and plenty of arguments for why it actually hurts more than it help, at least when exposed directly to players.
1) ELO serves as an extrinsic motivator to encourage players to always play to the best of their ability.
2) ELO is used as a performance metric to gauge whether players should be promoted into the *currently unreleased* Pro-League.
For 1), why is ELO the only way to motivate players to want to win? I actually believe many players desire intrinsically to win, regardless of external factors. Many people here are naturally competitive, and that competitive spirit drives players to chase after victory. In contrast, players who simply don't care to try in unfavorable scenarios cannot be made to, even with the presence of an ELO system. I've seen many games where players simply start trolling or even dodging queues just because they've stopped caring on the "losing" side. ELO explicitly deepens the zero-sum scenario, because now there's a cost associated with losing. There are alternatives to encourage players to want to win if their own competitive drive doesn't exist. I actually extensively enjoy casual MM over competitive right now because I only gain ranks for winning, but never lose ranks for losing. I still care enough to want to win, but not enough to just do what Skye mentioned:
[quote=Skye]sitting on last with a sentry gun and a bunch of offclasses for the last five minutes of a pug.
[/quote]
For 2), in its current state ELO does not in any accurate manner measure the abilities of the players in the PugChamp ecosystem. I know this because I'm 2k ELO and there are plenty of players that are better than me with lower ELO. This is because I almost never get picked in high IM/invite level pugs, so my ELO is relatively unaffected by players who would largely dominate me. Instead, I only play in lower level pugs where I know the odds are relatively in my favor. It doesn't make sense to me that I can farm ELO exclusively without ever getting matched up in a game against players with similar ELO who are actually significantly better than me. In a sense there's two separate ELO pools that are circulated -- one amongst the lower players, and one amongst the invite players. If the two groups never mix, I don't really see how ELO would ever accurately measure which players should play in a "pro-league".
In short, ELO isn't great and several PugChamp admins have already voiced their concerns about it. There aren't strong arguments for why we need it, and plenty of arguments for why it actually hurts more than it help, at least when exposed directly to players.
Go nuts. http://www.strawpoll.me/10749763
Edit: Here is another one. Go nuts. http://www.strawpoll.me/10749985
Go nuts. http://www.strawpoll.me/10749763
Edit: Here is another one. Go nuts. http://www.strawpoll.me/10749985
Edit: Here is another one. Go nuts. http://www.strawpoll.me/10749985
erynnGo nuts. http://www.strawpoll.me/10749763
Edit: Here is another one. Go nuts. http://www.strawpoll.me/10749985
not sure why draft stats is trailing so much. if someone's played 99 pugs on scout and 1 on demo im not gonna pick them for demo and you cant be expected to reliably know that info yourself for most players
[quote=erynn]Go nuts. http://www.strawpoll.me/10749763
Edit: Here is another one. Go nuts. http://www.strawpoll.me/10749985[/quote]
not sure why draft stats is trailing so much. if someone's played 99 pugs on scout and 1 on demo im not gonna pick them for demo and you cant be expected to reliably know that info yourself for most players
Edit: Here is another one. Go nuts. http://www.strawpoll.me/10749985[/quote]
not sure why draft stats is trailing so much. if someone's played 99 pugs on scout and 1 on demo im not gonna pick them for demo and you cant be expected to reliably know that info yourself for most players
Imo there needs to be a better report system if there won't be any elo
Imo there needs to be a better report system if there won't be any elo
CollaideImo there needs to be a better report system if there won't be any elo
Hidden ELO (which exists on mixchamp to ensure balanced teams) should be fine.
[quote=Collaide]Imo there needs to be a better report system if there won't be any elo[/quote]
Hidden ELO (which exists on mixchamp to ensure balanced teams) should be fine.
Hidden ELO (which exists on mixchamp to ensure balanced teams) should be fine.
How am I suppose to ̿ ̿ ̿’\̵͇̿̿\ eLOAsSaSsInS /̵͇̿̿/'̿ ̿ ̿ without elo???
How am I suppose to ̿ ̿ ̿’\̵͇̿̿\ eLOAsSaSsInS /̵͇̿̿/'̿ ̿ ̿ without elo???
SkyeCollaideImo there needs to be a better report system if there won't be any elo
Hidden ELO (which exists on mixchamp to ensure balanced teams) should be fine.
I'm sorry but I don't think I understand. In that case what would be the difference between mixchamp and pugchamp ?
[quote=Skye][quote=Collaide]Imo there needs to be a better report system if there won't be any elo[/quote]
Hidden ELO (which exists on mixchamp to ensure balanced teams) should be fine.[/quote]
I'm sorry but I don't think I understand. In that case what would be the difference between mixchamp and pugchamp ?
Hidden ELO (which exists on mixchamp to ensure balanced teams) should be fine.[/quote]
I'm sorry but I don't think I understand. In that case what would be the difference between mixchamp and pugchamp ?
mixchamp automatically makes teams without captains.
Pugchamp you need captains still
mixchamp automatically makes teams without captains.
Pugchamp you need captains still
Pugchamp you need captains still
In mixchamp, players are drafted using the system of hidden ELO (meaning ELO the players cannot see). Teams are balanced without the need for captains.
In pugchamp, captains pick the teams. ELO only affects the players after the pug is over; it has no effect on the draft.
SkyeELO can represent a player in a matchmaking setting, but in pugs, players are cherry-picked by captains. Players are not being matched up against the entire pool of puggers - they are selectively adding up to pugs of different skill levels, and being picked by captains of different skill levels. Captains already split up the skill level of players.
SkyeThe TF2 community is small enough that most players know each other – this is especially true on a pug website with a small pool of similarly skilled players. Good captains have knowledge of the players they want to pick. They know the skill division of each player, and the class they main. They know who the trolls are and the players who won’t play their mains seriously. Thus, captains generally disregard ELO in their picking process.
Any of the issues I highlighted here and in post#196 wouldn't exist with hidden ELO.
In mixchamp, players are drafted using the system of [i]hidden [/i]ELO (meaning ELO the players cannot see). Teams are balanced without the need for captains.
In pugchamp, captains pick the teams. ELO only affects the players after the pug is over; it has no effect on the draft.
[quote=Skye]ELO can represent a player in a matchmaking setting, but in pugs, players are cherry-picked by captains. Players are not being matched up against the entire pool of puggers - they are selectively adding up to pugs of different skill levels, and being picked by captains of different skill levels. Captains already split up the skill level of players.
[/quote]
[quote=Skye]The TF2 community is small enough that most players know each other – this is especially true on a pug website with a small pool of similarly skilled players. Good captains have knowledge of the players they want to pick. They know the skill division of each player, and the class they main. They know who the trolls are and the players who won’t play their mains seriously. Thus, captains generally disregard ELO in their picking process. [/quote]
Any of the issues I highlighted here and in post#196 wouldn't exist with hidden ELO.
In pugchamp, captains pick the teams. ELO only affects the players after the pug is over; it has no effect on the draft.
[quote=Skye]ELO can represent a player in a matchmaking setting, but in pugs, players are cherry-picked by captains. Players are not being matched up against the entire pool of puggers - they are selectively adding up to pugs of different skill levels, and being picked by captains of different skill levels. Captains already split up the skill level of players.
[/quote]
[quote=Skye]The TF2 community is small enough that most players know each other – this is especially true on a pug website with a small pool of similarly skilled players. Good captains have knowledge of the players they want to pick. They know the skill division of each player, and the class they main. They know who the trolls are and the players who won’t play their mains seriously. Thus, captains generally disregard ELO in their picking process. [/quote]
Any of the issues I highlighted here and in post#196 wouldn't exist with hidden ELO.
I've been queued up for pugchamp for literally 4 hours and there are like 50 people here but no captains wtf
I've been queued up for pugchamp for literally 4 hours and there are like 50 people here but no captains wtf
Thats the most annoying thing about pugchamp, literally over 30 people added and no one wants to captain. Then said 30 people proceed to complain when someone who isn't as good as the other captain captains. Like if you're going to complain then do it yourself and don't be a bitch.
Thats the most annoying thing about pugchamp, literally over 30 people added and no one wants to captain. Then said 30 people proceed to complain when someone who isn't as good as the other captain captains. Like if you're going to complain then do it yourself and don't be a bitch.
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