and yo can someone explain to me why the sandwich needs to be whitelisted? and people are calling for sandwich nerfs? y tho it's perfectly balanced imo.

I read somewhere that there was a modded flamethrower that shot a stream of fire. Imagine a hose. The stream of fire is about mid-range but behaves like any projectile, you need to predict your enemy to hit them. Obviously is easier when the enemy is closer. But interesting, the stream of fire would continue to burn the ground so enemies walking over it would take damage. Won't be set on fire but just burn a bit from it.

This would give pyro some mid-range ability as they can adjust the arc(like the demoman) and the fire lingering on the ground could be used to discourage enemies form walking over it.

It used to be an instant 150 health for the heavy if he threw it down. Now the biggest gay part is its a portable health pack for the medic

personally it seems like an alright weapon to allow

yeah it probably wouldnt be particularly overpowered, its just that for most people heavy isnt very fun and allowing the sandwich makes the most stalematey part of tf2 even more stalematey by buffing the defenders more.

Honestly they should just fix the major bugs with pyro and leave it at that. I'd love the LG idea and some of the others posted here but let's face it, Valve won't make such drastic changes on the core mechanics of a class. I wouldn't mind having stunlock on airblast completely removed as well. But anything beyond that sounds like a stretch that probably won't happen.

As for heavy I think they should remove the damage rampup mechanic as this actually reduces the class' quality of life a lot. Jump-revving is not viable, slowly creeping around a corner while shooting a wall is. To compensate, nerf the GRU and disciplinary action - mobility items for the heavy are kind of ridiculous. Namely

* GRU gets the same stats as the eviction notice (i.e. much smaller speed bonus but without the taking minicrits thing)
* whip buff gets considerably reduced for the heavy only. (don't really care if you whip other classes)

make it so lighting up people on fire wont be instant and just do base damage. only non burning players can be airblasted.
this means flaregun kick (or w/e they call it) isnt spam able right off the bet but still possible yet to crit people you need to actually aim at moving people instead of locking them into a corner or in air where you cant airstrafe (yes i know first airblast DOES allow airstrafing but the ones following it you cannot)

How about nerfing fire so that it does shit damage on it's own and focusing on combos with On Fire mechanics? And maybe change airblast to only reflect projectiles and not players. That would open up space for some new cool weapons utilizing On Fire, as well as a slight buff to flare guns to compensate. All while keeping the core class mechanics the same. Because let's face it, Valve aren't gonna change the flamethrower into a Quake LG. It needs to remain relatively easy to play for new players too.

Airblasting is a god awful gimmick, get rid off it and make it an airblast jump only similar to rocket jumping instead.

Remove the free crit from reflect of the pyro and it would be better.

Why is it a crit and just not a reflect? Seems strong enough already.

I propose these changes to pyro
A traditional LG for pyro would be kind of lame. I propose a projectile that functions like a hose. This would allow you to give pyro significantly longer range while drastically increasing the skill ceiling. This would also make sense in the context of how real flamethrowers actually function. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/08/US_riverboat_using_napalm_in_Vietnam.jpg
This would also give the phlog a actual purpose as you could make it a more traditional hitscan LG.
DOT effects are inherently annoying and unfun to play against but they are sort of a staple of Pyros basic design. As a compromise i would propose having the afterburn time be directly proportional to how long you keep the flames on target with some sort of minimal amount of time to get any ignition.

To replace the airblast ability i would propose some sort of oil slick? It would fire a stream like the normal primary fire but it would not ignite it. It would allow you to slide across the surface of the area you coated as if you had no friction (think surf). This would give pyro a unique advanced movement ability that he so desperately needs while eliminating the annoying as fuck airblast mechanic entirely. As a bonus you could make it act as a trap that you could light with your flare gun, or make it harder for enemy players to back off in a choke because of there momentum ect. To balance it you could simply make it dissipate after a few seconds.

I am just brainstorming so if anyone wishes to add on to my ideas or refine them please do.
My goal is to allow pyro to keep his identity while reworking the class's basic mechanics.

Just to clarify, would you people hate airblast if it didn't affect players, only reflected projectiles? Legit question, not sure.

no but its very unlikely theyll do that because valve probably wants to retain some established identity for classes/weapons.

airblasts stun is just one of the countless things that make pyro trivially easy to use, which is a huge problem because it means they cant adequately buff him without making pubs hell for low level players.

I still think changing the heavy for the better is actually a pretty easy task:

1) make visual indicators for his ramp-up shit (minigun heats up when firing for long enough, as an example)
2) drop overall bullet dmg, but heavily increase accuracy

the best thing that helped the heavy in the past while was when he got that tomislav buff, because it promoted better aim. more accuracy not only greatly benefits good players, but it makes it so when you miss with the miniguns, you actually miss rather than still get a stray bullet on them here and there

Maybe it would be better if it just stopped people coming further towards you, but didn''t actually push them anywhere. That way it could still deny ubers, albeit a nerf.

IDK, I hate it but others may not.

The good thing is that even though they're both annoying and stupid, they're also both mostly useless apart from pubs and their niches in 6's.

I have several ideas for Pyro but first let me start with a question. I notice some of you have concerns with the mini-crit multiplier on successful reflects, why do you feel it should be removed?. I would like to hear some debate on this but as for myself, I figure that the mini-crit status is acceptable. Of course I am biased towards the matter, but I would enjoy more discourse on the subject. I feel that the clear reliance on your opponent for reflectable ammunition is worthy of mini-crits, and I shall exclude non-6s class projectile weapons (Huntsman, Rescue Ranger, Sentry rockets, etc.) since they show little relevance to the standard projectiles reflected. In any situation where both players have a modicum of skill and knowledge of counterplay to the other class, during a fight or even during a standard volly of explosives, both classes have options for combat, but the Soldier or Demo will have more options as they possess more potential mobility, particularly in an aerial strike.

At long range, rockets and grenades will be obvious and the Pyro can either sidestep them or reflect them depending on the Pyro's needs. In that situation the Pyro does not gain any advantage since the Soldier or Demo can also sidestep the reflected projectile, and in fact a reflect would be unwise since the Demo and Soldier have a larger ammo reservoir and a reflected roller may in fact damage the Pyro for about 5 times more than normal due to a glitch with reflected grenades (30-40 for a regular roller and 160 for a reflected roller). At medium range, the advantage goes to the Pyro for ability to handle the others attacks if both opponents are on level ground, however, both the Demo and Soldier have the ability to jump with their own explosives. While such an action is ill-advised for Demo without a buff, Soldier can jump for very little damage, especially if the Gunboats are equipped. Therefore since the airblast box, the range for the airblast's ability to reflect projectiles, is only half as large in height as it is in length and width (X:216 Hammer Units Z:216 Hammer Units Y:128 Hammer Units) the Soldier automatically is reducing part of the ability of his opponent. Additionally, while tracking a ground based Soldier is very simple, adequate momentum and strafing allows for amazing agility for the Soldier while airborne. I would say that the Soldier possess the upper hand in such an engagement, as he can not only increase his effectiveness by becoming airborne but also retains the ability to escape if he begins to fail in his fight with the Pyro whereas the Pyro possesses no such ability. That is not to say that a Soldier is certain to win these fights, on the contrary, skilled Pyros can most always do near lethal, if not lethal damage, to a Soldier in these encounters but battles of attrition do not play into the Pyro's favor as he has less health to spare than the Soldier. As for the Demo, the Stickybomb launcher is the weapon of choice for medium range battle with a Pyro since the Pyro can not control the location of the detonation no matter how quickly he reacts. The Demoman can always detonate the stickies in the air close to the Pyro regardless of whether they have been reflected or not. At close range the battle is quite often uncertain, since the Pyro must have quicker reflexes or better prediction than his Soldier counterpart to return more of the projectiles than he recieves. Since most proficient Soldiers are capable of holding their fire, both of them must either decide to move to point blank range or disengage from full combat and only attempt chip damage on each other. At point blank, rockets intent on doing splash damage may be hard to reflect if aimed well by the Soldier, since it is impossible to move in to a position to dodge the splash or move to reflect them within the travel time of the rocket.I would say it is unwise for either class to engage in these battles alone since two direct rockets can kill either party regardless if they are mini-crit or not, but I give a slight advantage to Soldier due to his larger health pool but as he cannot escape as easily if he is point blank, I say only a slight advantage . For Demoman, I give advantage to Pyro since Demo is certainly weak to close range attacks and a Demo shouldn't intentionally fight at close range alone.

Ultimately, I feel that the mini-crits are necessary to balance the fight against either class even in a 1v1, but because since most fights of these kinds do not occur outside all-class MGE it is likely that much more important factors than a mini-crit on a reflect, are the location of allies and which class has a buff and which does not. As it stands, the Pyro does not do enough damage in these situations to warrant a removal of the mini-crits and I find that the danger of a mini-crit reflect helps to make these engagements more interesting. Pardon this lengthy response but I wanted to set up descripions of the average combat situations against a Pyro as a Demo or Soldier. Valve should instead focus on removal of the .5 second stun on airblast and other glaring issues, and in comparison these concerns about the mini-crit feature seems to be a non-issue.

youre giving a class minicrits in ammunition they have gotten which no other class can addition to their normal ammo/weapons

why?

pyro is not supposed to be good in any combat situation save for supporting the team, flanking, or denying uber, why give it minicrits for reflects? its not broken or anything, it just doesnt make sense, and would be more fun to play against without. nobody likes getting launched or instantly killed just because a pyro happened to luckily press m2 in a cq fight

I'm not certain that Pyro specifically has to be a support. It's true that the Pyro is currently really only good for those things you mentioned, but Pyro could be more of an offensive class if he were to be reworked to the degree that some have been suggesting. If they wanted to rework Pyro into a support, I would agree, it would be out of place, but as it stands Pyro really isn't too good at support or offense. I think that it's important that we decide what we want Pyro to be rather than just a heap of abilities, useful in about 30% or less of all scenarios.

p much all the suggestions that made it a combat class also included the main weapon not having airblast.

I'd argue the annoying part of Mei is the stun and instagib aspect of it, not the slow itself. I think it's hard to make pyro viable unless he is basically a better damage dealer than soldier unless you give cc elements to him (which airblast already is)

Which suggestions are these? Are the ones you are referring to in the thread? Anyway I like the airblast mechanic, at least for projectiles. I think most will agree they hate the player airblast portion more and as I have said earlier the stun after being airblasted should be removed. Additionally, I think that Valve will need to reduce the knockback on the airblast and instead allow something like this, allowing the airblast to be charged. I think that if they made airblast range more obvious, removed the stun on airblast, reduced the power of the standard airblast, made it chargeable, and created self-knockback on airblast it would do 3 things.

1. It might lessen some of the rage against being airblasted and allow for more counterplay
   
2. It would give Pyro more mobility that isn't braindead-easy like the Powerjack or pointlessly dumb like the Detonator or Scorch Shot
   
3. It would make airblast a more nuanced mechanic.

Of course this charging would need to require more ammo for a charged blast and would need to be tested to come out right, but I think it could do something good for Pyro.

airblast controlling movement

• is infuriating to play against, which doesnt fit into tf2's core weapon philosophy ("fun to play with and fun to play against")
  
• literally all you have to do is press m2 in their general direction for it to work (and somehow reddit pyro mains get elitist over how difficult this class is???)
  
• is awful in combination with all the crits pyro can shit out

make the flamethrower function like a lightning gun weapon so it at least takes some skill to use and remove airblast controlling movement in favor of extra mobility for the pyro itself

wow u guys are suggesting some complicated shit

Same goes for heavy. Stupid amount of health and damage, you always have to kite him for 2 hours which is not fun for either of the players.

I don't think any of the two classes need change honestly.
Maybe the heavy could use a new unlock that kinda changes his playstyle to be more tanky, but less damaging.

While I agree how the player airblast functions currently is rather dumb in a game with movement emphasized as one of the fundamentals, I'm concerned that removing the ability to airblast players entirely would kill the Pyro. As it stands, the airblast is the only way that the Pyro can be useful in a skirmish. Pyro does not do the damage necessary to be useful and to remove airblast yet increase Pyro's speed would basically make him a bad Scout clone. Instead of removing the one thing that makes Pyro useful in a combat situation I think we should tone down the annoying ones and give him something else or make something he already has better. Pyro has to have a niche and it can't be one that somebody else can fill better.

What I have suggested is entirely possible, in fact, I would say my suggestions are more feasible than most. The chargeable airblast function is already a weapon attribute in the game's code. The rest is not too difficult and I think the TF2 team could definitely make it happen.

Fix the ft range bugs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BFm82SFsYs

Sigsegv has made a video on FT mojo and also sent suggestions to Valve on how to go about fixing it. I think they'll fix it in the next big update when they end the Heavy vs. Pyro thing. Beyond bug fixes what do you want to see jediflamaster?

Mechanical tweaks is what's most important to me, like make the airblast box more accurate etc
But as far as fantasy pyro gun goes:
I'd absolutely love to see phlog become quake lg with half its range (continuous straight hitscan beam) and possibly penetration to be consistent with other flamethrowers. Additionally, instead of the silly "run in with kritz and die" alt fire, magnetic blast, being a variation of airblast that only affects projectiles.
Just imagine, a pyro primary, not useless, not cancer, heavily skill based with a huge emphasis on tracking.
https://youtu.be/5rVhUdCYA1w?t=31