everytime people find out about shady stuff the etf2l admins/ac staff has done people immediatly link it to "false" bans that the AC team gave, their best example is baud.
one of the reasons the AC team is not trusted is because of no transparency and not providing any proof to why people get banned.
it makes it look subjective and up to personal opinions that the AC staff has against the suspect.
another thing that people who defend cheaters might say are the false bans of beavern and quad, although I don't think it is a good argument considering that it was done by ETF2L admins, and wasn't done by a vote which is how current bans are being handled out.
try to review the demos a couple of times, watch it in slow mo and rewatch the moments that you think show that he is cheating/can hit well without cheats.
share your findings in this thread and hopefully it will be civil.
hopefully this will clear things out.
https://mega.nz/#!7cAiwK5S!cM7ED6TwX3AJxlQoS--37k4-nsMQ4mSAlXlKG4vY6O4
everytime people find out about shady stuff the etf2l admins/ac staff has done people immediatly link it to "false" bans that the AC team gave, their best example is baud.
one of the reasons the AC team is not trusted is because of no transparency and not providing any proof to why people get banned.
it makes it look subjective and up to personal opinions that the AC staff has against the suspect.
another thing that people who defend cheaters might say are the false bans of beavern and quad, although I don't think it is a good argument considering that it was done by ETF2L admins, and wasn't done by a vote which is how current bans are being handled out.
try to review the demos a couple of times, watch it in slow mo and rewatch the moments that you think show that he is cheating/can hit well without cheats.
share your findings in this thread and hopefully it will be civil.
hopefully this will clear things out.
https://mega.nz/#!7cAiwK5S!cM7ED6TwX3AJxlQoS--37k4-nsMQ4mSAlXlKG4vY6O4
I thought this drama ended months ago
I thought this drama ended months ago
_intronI thought this drama ended months ago
I uploaded it because of the serveme hack thread, where people link how it got abused from solid's account, and people bring the example of baud of how the etf2l staff can't be trusted and those bans are not justified.
I still think some people would be interested in this.
[quote=_intron]I thought this drama ended months ago[/quote]
I uploaded it because of the serveme hack thread, where people link how it got abused from solid's account, and people bring the example of baud of how the etf2l staff can't be trusted and those bans are not justified.
I still think some people would be interested in this.
He doesn't even play TF2 anymore what is the point of it
He doesn't even play TF2 anymore what is the point of it
the point is to see if the tf2 admins are trash or not
the point is to see if the tf2 admins are trash or not
spammyhHe doesn't even play TF2 anymore what is the point of it
it's more about etf2l's AC team than it is about baud, I use baud as an example because he is the most controversial ban in the last 3 years.
[quote=spammyh]He doesn't even play TF2 anymore what is the point of it[/quote]
it's more about etf2l's AC team than it is about baud, I use baud as an example because he is the most controversial ban in the last 3 years.
Phoenix21spammyhHe doesn't even play TF2 anymore what is the point of it
it's more about etf2l's AC team than it is about baud, I use baud as an example because he is the most controversial ban in the last 3 years.
fair enough, sorry for misunderstanding then
[quote=Phoenix21][quote=spammyh]He doesn't even play TF2 anymore what is the point of it[/quote]
it's more about etf2l's AC team than it is about baud, I use baud as an example because he is the most controversial ban in the last 3 years.[/quote]
fair enough, sorry for misunderstanding then
If you don't see why release AC demo's is a bad idea then idk what to say.
You are right that that in some instances reviews can be subjective and opinion based but that's why they make everyone watch the demo for their input.
I stopped publicly uploading videos of cheaters I caught cause I realized that depending on the type of cheat it may do more harm than good by waving it around.
Regarding the ETF2LAC Team, I can't speak for the others but I know MightyBurger knows his shitty pretty well.
If you don't see why release AC demo's is a bad idea then idk what to say.
You are right that that in some instances reviews can be subjective and opinion based but that's why they make everyone watch the demo for their input.
I stopped publicly uploading videos of cheaters I caught cause I realized that depending on the type of cheat it may do more harm than good by waving it around.
Regarding the ETF2LAC Team, I can't speak for the others but I know MightyBurger knows his shitty pretty well.
DoctorMiggyIf you don't see why release AC demo's is a bad idea then idk what to say.
You are right that that in some instances reviews can be subjective and opinion based but that's why they make everyone watch the demo for their input.
I stopped publicly uploading videos of cheaters I caught cause I realized that depending on the type of cheat it may do more harm than good by waving it around.
Regarding the ETF2LAC Team, I can't speak for the others but I know MightyBurger knows his shitty pretty well.
you're right, I don't think all proof of every ban ever should be released, but I think the AC's team reputation is too damaged, and no one trusts them anymore and something needs to be done about it.
I don't think a release of demos from one guy who got banned will give enough tools for people to create better cheats that are less detectable, there's no pattern to learn from one player's demo.
I think that a point where a large enough portion of a community doesn't think that an etf2l ban means anything is scary, I think that there should be a definitive answer about this case, the demos being open to the public can finally provide some needed answers.
[quote=DoctorMiggy]If you don't see why release AC demo's is a bad idea then idk what to say.
You are right that that in some instances reviews can be subjective and opinion based but that's why they make everyone watch the demo for their input.
I stopped publicly uploading videos of cheaters I caught cause I realized that depending on the type of cheat it may do more harm than good by waving it around.
Regarding the ETF2LAC Team, I can't speak for the others but I know MightyBurger knows his shitty pretty well.[/quote]
you're right, I don't think all proof of every ban ever should be released, but I think the AC's team reputation is too damaged, and no one trusts them anymore and something needs to be done about it.
I don't think a release of demos from one guy who got banned will give enough tools for people to create better cheats that are less detectable, there's no pattern to learn from one player's demo.
I think that a point where a large enough portion of a community doesn't think that an etf2l ban means anything is scary, I think that there should be a definitive answer about this case, the demos being open to the public can finally provide some needed answers.
The ETF2L AC team is currently the best tf2 has in terms of anticheat. This is not a bash at the individuals on other ac teams, more a look at the results. Yes the ETF2L team has had a few bad examples which everyone likes to highlight, but also look at the lmaobox ban waves, no active player was banned in etf2l. All previous players who did get banned had all be caught by the ac team already, such as azn.
Compared to ESEA and UGCs AC teams, UGC had several high profile players VAC banned including the Plat winning sniper. I dont know if ESEA has an anticheat team for TF2, given that to my knowledge they have never banned anyone.
Im not saying the ETF2L AC team is perfect, they are far from it, but they are the best tf2 has and the best tf2 can do until we get the resources to develop a client of some kind that is actively maintained similar to the ESEA CSGO system. While i agree more transparency and accountability would be nice, you also have to realise that adding more of those things cannot come at the cost of the AC teams prime objective, which is to stop cheaters.
The ETF2L AC team is currently the best tf2 has in terms of anticheat. This is not a bash at the individuals on other ac teams, more a look at the results. Yes the ETF2L team has had a few bad examples which everyone likes to highlight, but also look at the lmaobox ban waves, no active player was banned in etf2l. All previous players who did get banned had all be caught by the ac team already, such as azn.
Compared to ESEA and UGCs AC teams, UGC had several high profile players VAC banned including the Plat winning sniper. I dont know if ESEA has an anticheat team for TF2, given that to my knowledge they have never banned anyone.
Im not saying the ETF2L AC team is perfect, they are far from it, but they are the best tf2 has and the best tf2 can do until we get the resources to develop a client of some kind that is actively maintained similar to the ESEA CSGO system. While i agree more transparency and accountability would be nice, you also have to realise that adding more of those things cannot come at the cost of the AC teams prime objective, which is to stop cheaters.
Phoenix21DoctorMiggyIf you don't see why release AC demo's is a bad idea then idk what to say.
You are right that that in some instances reviews can be subjective and opinion based but that's why they make everyone watch the demo for their input.
I stopped publicly uploading videos of cheaters I caught cause I realized that depending on the type of cheat it may do more harm than good by waving it around.
Regarding the ETF2LAC Team, I can't speak for the others but I know MightyBurger knows his shitty pretty well.
I don't think a release of demos from one guy who got banned will give enough tools for people to create better cheats that are less detectable, there's no pattern to learn from one player's demo.
You'd be surprised. Lmaobox's response was to deny his cheat was flawed but a lot of cheaters were caught by his sloppy cheat programs "tells". Revealing a POV containing a tell like that would bring it to everyone's attention.
[quote=Phoenix21][quote=DoctorMiggy]If you don't see why release AC demo's is a bad idea then idk what to say.
You are right that that in some instances reviews can be subjective and opinion based but that's why they make everyone watch the demo for their input.
I stopped publicly uploading videos of cheaters I caught cause I realized that depending on the type of cheat it may do more harm than good by waving it around.
Regarding the ETF2LAC Team, I can't speak for the others but I know MightyBurger knows his shitty pretty well.[/quote]
I don't think a release of demos from one guy who got banned will give enough tools for people to create better cheats that are less detectable, there's no pattern to learn from one player's demo.[/quote]
You'd be surprised. Lmaobox's response was to deny his cheat was flawed but a lot of cheaters were caught by his sloppy cheat programs "tells". Revealing a POV containing a tell like that would bring it to everyone's attention.
Phoenix21you're right, I don't think all proof of every ban ever should be released, but I think the AC's team reputation is too damaged, and no one trusts them anymore and something needs to be done about it.
I don't think a release of demos from one guy who got banned will give enough tools for people to create better cheats that are less detectable, there's no pattern to learn from one player's demo.
I think that a point where a large enough portion of a community doesn't think that an etf2l ban means anything is scary, I think that there should be a definitive answer about this case, the demos being open to the public can finally provide some needed answers.
the AC's team reputation isn't too damaged and even if it was, they wouldn't compromise the AC work to save it, they don't have a single reason to rebuild any kind of trust especially not by releasing his demos (the three demos in the OP are by far not all of the demos taken into consideration mainly because his case was so publicly controversial). AC is providing enough transparency by writing posts like these over and over again in every thread with the same content everytime
the point of not releasing demos is to not give the tells away, and knowing the tools of demo analysis, cheatmakers could change their cheats in a way that it becomes unable for the AC team to detect. said tells are things only cheaters do consistently, once they know what the tells are, they'll change their habits, be more careful and they can't bust them. do you want that?
on a funny sidenote, we've sent demos of our AC playing legitimately on pubs to players like MaxBox (he's a cheater himself so he must know a lot about cheats!) or old UGC admins and they think they're cheating. the general public is way too inexperienced to review this kind of stuff, that's why the criteria to join the AC team is very strict
clients with inbuilt AC will probably not happen in europe, we've had ESL wire and people didn't want to bother with it, SMAC or anakin's old screenshot plugin was too much to ask for because people don't know how to server
[quote=Phoenix21]
you're right, I don't think all proof of every ban ever should be released, but I think the AC's team reputation is too damaged, and no one trusts them anymore and something needs to be done about it.
I don't think a release of demos from one guy who got banned will give enough tools for people to create better cheats that are less detectable, there's no pattern to learn from one player's demo.
I think that a point where a large enough portion of a community doesn't think that an etf2l ban means anything is scary, I think that there should be a definitive answer about this case, the demos being open to the public can finally provide some needed answers.[/quote]
the AC's team reputation isn't too damaged and even if it was, they wouldn't compromise the AC work to save it, they don't have a single reason to rebuild any kind of trust especially not by releasing his demos (the three demos in the OP are by far not all of the demos taken into consideration mainly because his case was so publicly controversial). AC is providing enough transparency by writing posts like these over and over again in every thread with the same content everytime
the point of not releasing demos is to not give the tells away, and knowing the tools of demo analysis, cheatmakers could change their cheats in a way that it becomes unable for the AC team to detect. said tells are things only cheaters do consistently, once they know what the tells are, they'll change their habits, be more careful and they can't bust them. do you want that?
on a funny sidenote, we've sent demos of our AC playing legitimately on pubs to players like MaxBox (he's a cheater himself so he must know a lot about cheats!) or old UGC admins and they think they're cheating. the general public is way too inexperienced to review this kind of stuff, that's why the criteria to join the AC team is very strict
clients with inbuilt AC will probably not happen in europe, we've had ESL wire and people didn't want to bother with it, SMAC or anakin's old screenshot plugin was too much to ask for because people don't know how to server
quintoshPhoenix21you're right, I don't think all proof of every ban ever should be released, but I think the AC's team reputation is too damaged, and no one trusts them anymore and something needs to be done about it.
I don't think a release of demos from one guy who got banned will give enough tools for people to create better cheats that are less detectable, there's no pattern to learn from one player's demo.
I think that a point where a large enough portion of a community doesn't think that an etf2l ban means anything is scary, I think that there should be a definitive answer about this case, the demos being open to the public can finally provide some needed answers.
the AC's team reputation isn't too damaged and even if it was, they wouldn't compromise the AC work to save it, they don't have a single reason to rebuild any kind of trust especially not by releasing his demos (the three demos in the OP are by far not all of the demos taken into consideration mainly because his case was so publicly controversial). AC is providing enough transparency by writing posts like these over and over again in every thread with the same content everytime
the point of not releasing demos is to not give the tells away, and knowing the tools of demo analysis, cheatmakers could change their cheats in a way that it becomes unable for the AC team to detect. said tells are things only cheaters do consistently, once they know what the tells are, they'll change their habits, be more careful and they can't bust them. do you want that?
on a funny sidenote, we've sent demos of our AC playing legitimately on pubs to players like MaxBox (he's a cheater himself so he must know a lot about cheats!) or old UGC admins and they think they're cheating. the general public is way too inexperienced to review this kind of stuff, that's why the criteria to join the AC team is very strict
clients with inbuilt AC will probably not happen in europe, we've had ESL wire and people didn't want to bother with it, SMAC or anakin's old screenshot plugin was too much to ask for because people don't know how to server
if that's the case, shouldn't the etf2l team make the demos that people upload for reviews private?
or at the very least delete the demos of players who were caught cheating?
they are still there on your site, I didn't really have to look very deep to find them.
[quote=quintosh][quote=Phoenix21]
you're right, I don't think all proof of every ban ever should be released, but I think the AC's team reputation is too damaged, and no one trusts them anymore and something needs to be done about it.
I don't think a release of demos from one guy who got banned will give enough tools for people to create better cheats that are less detectable, there's no pattern to learn from one player's demo.
I think that a point where a large enough portion of a community doesn't think that an etf2l ban means anything is scary, I think that there should be a definitive answer about this case, the demos being open to the public can finally provide some needed answers.[/quote]
the AC's team reputation isn't too damaged and even if it was, they wouldn't compromise the AC work to save it, they don't have a single reason to rebuild any kind of trust especially not by releasing his demos (the three demos in the OP are by far not all of the demos taken into consideration mainly because his case was so publicly controversial). AC is providing enough transparency by writing posts like these over and over again in every thread with the same content everytime
the point of not releasing demos is to not give the tells away, and knowing the tools of demo analysis, cheatmakers could change their cheats in a way that it becomes unable for the AC team to detect. said tells are things only cheaters do consistently, once they know what the tells are, they'll change their habits, be more careful and they can't bust them. do you want that?
on a funny sidenote, we've sent demos of our AC playing legitimately on pubs to players like MaxBox (he's a cheater himself so he must know a lot about cheats!) or old UGC admins and they think they're cheating. the general public is way too inexperienced to review this kind of stuff, that's why the criteria to join the AC team is very strict
clients with inbuilt AC will probably not happen in europe, we've had ESL wire and people didn't want to bother with it, SMAC or anakin's old screenshot plugin was too much to ask for because people don't know how to server[/quote]
if that's the case, shouldn't the etf2l team make the demos that people upload for reviews private?
or at the very least delete the demos of players who were caught cheating?
they are still there on your site, I didn't really have to look very deep to find them.
Phoenix21if that's the case, shouldn't the etf2l team make the demos that people upload for reviews private?
or at the very least delete the demos of players who were caught cheating?
they are still there on your site, I didn't really have to look very deep to find them.
they'll still be handed around like this, doesn't change a thing
edit: and because of that and because of a lack of coders and the mess of a code that etf2l's backend is there's no way it will be implemented in the near future
[quote=Phoenix21]
if that's the case, shouldn't the etf2l team make the demos that people upload for reviews private?
or at the very least delete the demos of players who were caught cheating?
they are still there on your site, I didn't really have to look very deep to find them.[/quote]
they'll still be handed around like this, doesn't change a thing
edit: and because of that and because of a lack of coders and the mess of a code that etf2l's backend is there's no way it will be implemented in the near future
FireDamnEasythe point is to see if the tf2 admins are trash or not
So because people with no experience with cheats don't see proof of Baud hacking in that Demo the etf2l Anti Cheat staff is Trash.
Makes Sense yes.
I didnt say they are trash?? I said what the point of this what, maybe there are people who have experience with cheats that will watch this?
[quote=Fire][quote=DamnEasy]the point is to see if the tf2 admins are trash or not[/quote]
So because people with no experience with cheats don't see proof of Baud hacking in that Demo the etf2l Anti Cheat staff is Trash.
Makes Sense yes.[/quote]
I didnt say they are trash?? I said what the point of this what, maybe there are people who have experience with cheats that will watch this?
Phoenix21if that's the case, shouldn't the etf2l team make the demos that people upload for reviews private?
or at the very least delete the demos of players who were caught cheating?
they are still there on your site, I didn't really have to look very deep to find them.
The vast majority of demo requests on ETF2L are not for AC purposes, they are to check people are recording, even if a person is suspected the admin does not just request their demos. This keeps people guessing if they are being investigated or not. Also the leaders of other teams may request demos and making them admin only would prevent that.
[quote=Phoenix21]
if that's the case, shouldn't the etf2l team make the demos that people upload for reviews private?
or at the very least delete the demos of players who were caught cheating?
they are still there on your site, I didn't really have to look very deep to find them.[/quote]
The vast majority of demo requests on ETF2L are not for AC purposes, they are to check people are recording, even if a person is suspected the admin does not just request their demos. This keeps people guessing if they are being investigated or not. Also the leaders of other teams may request demos and making them admin only would prevent that.
quintoshPhoenix21you're right, I don't think all proof of every ban ever should be released, but I think the AC's team reputation is too damaged, and no one trusts them anymore and something needs to be done about it.
I don't think a release of demos from one guy who got banned will give enough tools for people to create better cheats that are less detectable, there's no pattern to learn from one player's demo.
I think that a point where a large enough portion of a community doesn't think that an etf2l ban means anything is scary, I think that there should be a definitive answer about this case, the demos being open to the public can finally provide some needed answers.
on a funny sidenote, we've sent demos of our AC playing legitimately on pubs to players like MaxBox (he's a cheater himself so he must know a lot about cheats!) or old UGC admins and they think they're cheating. the general public is way too inexperienced to review this kind of stuff, that's why the criteria to join the AC team is very strict
Sending to Maxbox is a bad idea, but I do agree about the general public. A lot of stupid witchhunts are started on reddit over STV delay footage.
I wish Anakkkin kept his plugin updated, I recently asked him for a copy of the plugin itself or the source as I wanted to abandon my own AC plugin and work on a new one using his as a reference point but he never got back to me :(
[quote=quintosh][quote=Phoenix21]
you're right, I don't think all proof of every ban ever should be released, but I think the AC's team reputation is too damaged, and no one trusts them anymore and something needs to be done about it.
I don't think a release of demos from one guy who got banned will give enough tools for people to create better cheats that are less detectable, there's no pattern to learn from one player's demo.
I think that a point where a large enough portion of a community doesn't think that an etf2l ban means anything is scary, I think that there should be a definitive answer about this case, the demos being open to the public can finally provide some needed answers.[/quote]
on a funny sidenote, we've sent demos of our AC playing legitimately on pubs to players like MaxBox (he's a cheater himself so he must know a lot about cheats!) or old UGC admins and they think they're cheating. the general public is way too inexperienced to review this kind of stuff, that's why the criteria to join the AC team is very strict
[/quote]
Sending to Maxbox is a bad idea, but I do agree about the general public. A lot of stupid witchhunts are started on reddit over STV delay footage.
I wish Anakkkin kept his plugin updated, I recently asked him for a copy of the plugin itself or the source as I wanted to abandon my own AC plugin and work on a new one using his as a reference point but he never got back to me :(
https://youtu.be/0vSqi-nhCSE
shorashttps://youtu.be/0vSqi-nhCSE
this video isnt really fishy though lol
[quote=shoras]https://youtu.be/0vSqi-nhCSE[/quote]
this video isnt really fishy though lol
DamnEasyshorashttps://youtu.be/0vSqi-nhCSE
this video isnt really fishy though lol
yeah, super smooth and natural aim
[quote=DamnEasy][quote=shoras]https://youtu.be/0vSqi-nhCSE[/quote]
this video isnt really fishy though lol[/quote]
yeah, super smooth and natural aim
DoctorMiggy
I wish Anakkkin kept his plugin updated, I recently asked him for a copy of the plugin itself or the source as I wanted to abandon my own AC plugin and work on a new one using his as a reference point but he never got back to me :(
Completely agree. His plugin was great and I haven't seen something equivalent to that since. I remember when the game had an exploit that his plugin used where you could screenshot players screen, but only in-game. Some people of course was concerned that this was too intrusive but especially for ESP it was a foolproof way of catching people if you trusted the source.
[quote=DoctorMiggy]
I wish Anakkkin kept his plugin updated, I recently asked him for a copy of the plugin itself or the source as I wanted to abandon my own AC plugin and work on a new one using his as a reference point but he never got back to me :([/quote]
Completely agree. His plugin was great and I haven't seen something equivalent to that since. I remember when the game had an exploit that his plugin used where you could screenshot players screen, but only in-game. Some people of course was concerned that this was too intrusive but especially for ESP it was a foolproof way of catching people if you trusted the source.
shorasDamnEasyshorashttps://youtu.be/0vSqi-nhCSE
this video isnt really fishy though lol
yeah, super smooth and natural aim
My aim is like this on heavy too, its just high sens
[quote=shoras][quote=DamnEasy][quote=shoras]https://youtu.be/0vSqi-nhCSE[/quote]
this video isnt really fishy though lol[/quote]
yeah, super smooth and natural aim[/quote]
My aim is like this on heavy too, its just high sens
lazybearDoctorMiggy
I wish Anakkkin kept his plugin updated, I recently asked him for a copy of the plugin itself or the source as I wanted to abandon my own AC plugin and work on a new one using his as a reference point but he never got back to me :(
Completely agree. His plugin was great and I haven't seen something equivalent to that since. I remember when the game had an exploit that his plugin used where you could screenshot players screen, but only in-game. Some people of course was concerned that this was too intrusive but especially for ESP it was a foolproof way of catching people if you trusted the source.
Lmaobox has since put in a feature that hides the cheats when screenshots are taken.
Ontop of that, Valve patched that exploit.
RIP THE DREAM
[quote=lazybear][quote=DoctorMiggy]
I wish Anakkkin kept his plugin updated, I recently asked him for a copy of the plugin itself or the source as I wanted to abandon my own AC plugin and work on a new one using his as a reference point but he never got back to me :([/quote]
Completely agree. His plugin was great and I haven't seen something equivalent to that since. I remember when the game had an exploit that his plugin used where you could screenshot players screen, but only in-game. Some people of course was concerned that this was too intrusive but especially for ESP it was a foolproof way of catching people if you trusted the source.[/quote]
Lmaobox has since put in a feature that hides the cheats when screenshots are taken.
Ontop of that, Valve patched that exploit.
RIP THE DREAM
there is no way to prevent cheaters without having a client
and even then there will be cheaters
the aim style of cheaters is inherently different but honestly in tf2 for like a solid 6/9 classes it's gonna be super hard to prove that someone is actually a cheater if they try to hide it
and for the other 3/9 u can just watch demos of legit players to see their habits and tendencies and try to copy / emulate that (esp aiming style) to hide it
there is no way to prevent cheaters without having a client
and even then there will be cheaters
the aim style of cheaters is inherently different but honestly in tf2 for like a solid 6/9 classes it's gonna be super hard to prove that someone is actually a cheater if they try to hide it
and for the other 3/9 u can just watch demos of legit players to see their habits and tendencies and try to copy / emulate that (esp aiming style) to hide it