I get the funny banter thing, but countering someone's argument with "because you're bad" is so childish and counterproductive
Global Whitelist Meeting
posted in
Events
I get the funny banter thing, but countering someone's argument with "because you're bad" is so childish and counterproductive
If you want to hide everyone who isn't talking, press ctrl+shift+i in the discord client and run this snippet in the console:
function loopIt() {
Array.from(document.getElementsByClassName('icon-muted')).forEach(v=>{v.parentElement.parentElement.style.display = "none";})
setTimeout(function() { loopIt() }, 1000);
}
loopIt()http://imgur.com/a/z5xxs
You'll have to rerun it as people join the channel, though. Added an infinite loop.
If you want to hide everyone who isn't talking, press ctrl+shift+i in the discord client and run this snippet in the console:
[code]
function loopIt() {
Array.from(document.getElementsByClassName('icon-muted')).forEach(v=>{v.parentElement.parentElement.style.display = "none";})
setTimeout(function() { loopIt() }, 1000);
}
loopIt()
[/code]
http://imgur.com/a/z5xxs
[s]You'll have to rerun it as people join the channel, though.[/s] Added an infinite loop.
[code]
function loopIt() {
Array.from(document.getElementsByClassName('icon-muted')).forEach(v=>{v.parentElement.parentElement.style.display = "none";})
setTimeout(function() { loopIt() }, 1000);
}
loopIt()
[/code]
http://imgur.com/a/z5xxs
[s]You'll have to rerun it as people join the channel, though.[/s] Added an infinite loop.
man literally this entire discussion is everyone saying
x is annoying, we should not unban it or ban it
and when a scenario gets brought up you guys bring up the most specific scenario that would probably happen once in a blue moon
on top of that you guys are talking about tf2 as if youre a drone and cant change anything to help your cause
man literally this entire discussion is everyone saying
x is annoying, we should not unban it or ban it
and when a scenario gets brought up you guys bring up the most specific scenario that would probably happen once in a blue moon
on top of that you guys are talking about tf2 as if youre a drone and cant change anything to help your cause
x is annoying, we should not unban it or ban it
and when a scenario gets brought up you guys bring up the most specific scenario that would probably happen once in a blue moon
on top of that you guys are talking about tf2 as if youre a drone and cant change anything to help your cause
Banning: Rescue Rangler, Machina, Cow Mangler, and Jarate
Unbanning (After ESA Rewind): Quick-Fix, Soda Popper, Solemn Vow, Pomson 6000, and Dalokoh's Bar
[b]Banning:[/b] Rescue Rangler, Machina, Cow Mangler, and Jarate
[b]Unbanning (After ESA Rewind):[/b] Quick-Fix, Soda Popper, Solemn Vow, Pomson 6000, and Dalokoh's Bar
http://whitelist.tf/6764
[b]Unbanning (After ESA Rewind):[/b] Quick-Fix, Soda Popper, Solemn Vow, Pomson 6000, and Dalokoh's Bar
http://whitelist.tf/6764
i can't wait for scouts that can jump 5 times in a row
wait is it banned for lan or from here on out
i can't wait for scouts that can jump 5 times in a row
wait is it banned for lan or from here on out
wait is it banned for lan or from here on out
they're keeping everything that was banned, banned for LAN
they're keeping everything that was banned, banned for LAN
lul, this new whitelist is so aids.
No one plays tf2 for any reason other than to have fun (except b4nny). Why are we unbanning weapons that make the game more annoying? For the sake of it?
lul, this new whitelist is so aids.
No one plays tf2 for any reason other than to have fun (except b4nny). Why are we unbanning weapons that make the game more annoying? For the sake of it?
No one plays tf2 for any reason other than to have fun (except b4nny). Why are we unbanning weapons that make the game more annoying? For the sake of it?
they banned the rr, cow mangler, jarate, and machina
are you not entertained!!!
they banned the rr, cow mangler, jarate, and machina
are you not entertained!!!
are you not entertained!!!
so is soda popper gonna be unbanned then
why should that ever be a thing
so is soda popper gonna be unbanned then
why should that ever be a thing
why should that ever be a thing
Viperi can't wait for scouts that can jump 5 times in a row
wait is it banned for lan or from here on out
soda popper is entirely inconsequential to the game
[quote=Viper]i can't wait for scouts that can jump 5 times in a row
wait is it banned for lan or from here on out[/quote]
soda popper is entirely inconsequential to the game
wait is it banned for lan or from here on out[/quote]
soda popper is entirely inconsequential to the game
Show Content
HildrethTwiggyHildreth- Tell me the purpose of the whitelist?I think the goal of the whitelist is to affect the game balance by removing weapons that are either "broken" or overpowered.
Hildreth How do you define an "Overpowered" weapon?First a website of someone who knows his shit unlike us.
David SirlinThe worst thing you can have in a competitive multiplayer game is a dominant move (or weapon, character, unit, whatever). I don’t mean a move that is merely good, I mean a move that is strictly better than any other you could do, so its very existence reduces the strategy of the game. A dominant move also probably has no real counter, so even if the opponent knows you will do it, there’s not a lot they can do.
So strictly speaking for weapons, an overpowered weapon is a weapon "that is strictly better than any other" weapon "you could use, so its very existence reduces the strategy of the game"
How do you decide if something is "stricly better"? By playtesting. Has weapon X been proven to be run exclusively in 6s or allowed a very specific uncounterable move or strategy to be pulled? If no, then it should not be banned.
Some currently banned weapons agree to this definition : atomizer, crit a cola, vitasaw, quickfix for example.
Interestingly, some beloved weapons agree to this too : gunboats or crossbow for example.
Hildreth How do you define a "Broken weapon".This one is the easiest. It's a weapon with a mechanic that does not work as intended by the developpers. For example, the pomson when the projectile could become invisible, or taunts that fucked up the hitboxes.
The whole 'fun' element can not be used when you want to objectively balance the game, because fun is by definition subjective. And saying 'a majority of people agree on what fun is therefore we should do X' is just shitting on the rest of the players who think otherwise, so it does the complete opposite of bringing everyone together as the player MR_SLIN claims.
I mean that is fine, he's at least tried to explain it - However he opens a can of worms, if you follow this definition strictly, then the crossbow should be banned, but if that is the case everyone will be in uproar because Medics love the crossbow and in general teams like it because it makes heals/ubers and everything more efficient. But it's vastly superior to any alternatives. The gunboats is a similar proposition, but I don't think should be in the same category because sometimes teams used battalions backup or shotgun to add an extra dynamic to their play.
But therein lies the problems with whitelists - You made your own definition of what an unbalanced weapon is yet don't have the balls to enforce it being banned because it ruins the "subjective" fun of the gamemode. That's the issue, the inconsistencies of whitelists - Some weapons are deemed banned because of this definition (Vitasaw for example) whilst others that fit it perfectly (Crossbow) remain unbanned because it's subjectively seen as "More fun" by people, even though the argument is "Fun is subjective so should not matter".
Either ban all of the unlocks that fit this definition or allow them, no middle ground because it's inconsistent and turns the whitelist into what it is today - A muddle of unlocks decided by a rabble of people wanting to enforce their own views on game balance onto a stagnating, hybrid and chaotic version of TF2 that is different from anything seen elsewhere including the Matchmaking mod - The very thing the developers tried to introduce to support the competitive community.
And the idea that MR Slin knows his shit more than any other person is laughable, he's a person with views and opinions like everyone else, difference is he uses his social media platform to launch it and has spread his ideas to a point where leagues listen to him. Don't get me wrong I'd rather they listened to him over some of these idiots I see posting here, but nobody is special - He just has more a direction he wants to take the game - Good for him.
To differentiate "fun" from "unfun" unlocks you could use the mechanical skill required for using said unlock.
For example, vitasaw requires nothing to do in particular, while gunboats emphasizes rocket jumping, or crossbow rewards medics with good aim.
[spoiler][quote=Hildreth][quote=Twiggy][quote=Hildreth]- Tell me the purpose of the whitelist?
[/quote]
I think the goal of the whitelist is to affect the game balance by removing weapons that are either "broken" or overpowered.
[quote=Hildreth] How do you define an "Overpowered" weapon?
[/quote]
[url=http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win]First a website of someone who knows his shit unlike us.[/url]
[quote=David Sirlin]The worst thing you can have in a competitive multiplayer game is a dominant move (or weapon, character, unit, whatever). I don’t mean a move that is merely good, I mean a move that is strictly better than any other you could do, so its very existence reduces the strategy of the game. A dominant move also probably has no real counter, so even if the opponent knows you will do it, there’s not a lot they can do.[/quote]
[b]So strictly speaking for weapons, an overpowered weapon is a weapon "that is strictly better than any other" weapon "you could use, so its very existence reduces the strategy of the game"[/b]
How do you decide if something is "stricly better"? By playtesting. Has weapon X been proven to be run exclusively in 6s or allowed a very specific uncounterable move or strategy to be pulled? If no, then it should not be banned.
Some currently banned weapons agree to this definition : atomizer, crit a cola, vitasaw, quickfix for example.
Interestingly, some beloved weapons agree to this too : gunboats or crossbow for example.
[quote=Hildreth] How do you define a "Broken weapon".
[/quote]
This one is the easiest. It's a weapon with a mechanic that does not work as intended by the developpers. For example, the pomson when the projectile could become invisible, or taunts that fucked up the hitboxes.
The whole 'fun' element can not be used when you want to objectively balance the game, because fun is by definition subjective. And saying 'a majority of people agree on what fun is therefore we should do X' is just shitting on the rest of the players who think otherwise, so it does the complete opposite of bringing everyone together as the player MR_SLIN claims.[/quote]
I mean that is fine, he's at least tried to explain it - However he opens a can of worms, if you follow this definition strictly, then the crossbow should be banned, but if that is the case everyone will be in uproar because Medics love the crossbow and in general teams like it because it makes heals/ubers and everything more efficient. But it's vastly superior to any alternatives. The gunboats is a similar proposition, but I don't think should be in the same category because sometimes teams used battalions backup or shotgun to add an extra dynamic to their play.
But therein lies the problems with whitelists - You made your own definition of what an unbalanced weapon is yet don't have the balls to enforce it being banned because it ruins the "subjective" fun of the gamemode. That's the issue, the inconsistencies of whitelists - Some weapons are deemed banned because of this definition (Vitasaw for example) whilst others that fit it perfectly (Crossbow) remain unbanned because it's subjectively seen as "More fun" by people, even though the argument is "Fun is subjective so should not matter".
Either ban all of the unlocks that fit this definition or allow them, no middle ground because it's inconsistent and turns the whitelist into what it is today - A muddle of unlocks decided by a rabble of people wanting to enforce their own views on game balance onto a stagnating, hybrid and chaotic version of TF2 that is different from anything seen elsewhere including the Matchmaking mod - The very thing the developers tried to introduce to support the competitive community.
And the idea that MR Slin knows his shit more than any other person is laughable, he's a person with views and opinions like everyone else, difference is he uses his social media platform to launch it and has spread his ideas to a point where leagues listen to him. Don't get me wrong I'd rather they listened to him over some of these idiots I see posting here, but nobody is special - He just has more a direction he wants to take the game - Good for him.[/quote]
[/spoiler]
To differentiate "fun" from "unfun" unlocks you could use the mechanical skill required for using said unlock.
For example, vitasaw requires nothing to do in particular, while gunboats emphasizes rocket jumping, or crossbow rewards medics with good aim.
[/quote]
I think the goal of the whitelist is to affect the game balance by removing weapons that are either "broken" or overpowered.
[quote=Hildreth] How do you define an "Overpowered" weapon?
[/quote]
[url=http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win]First a website of someone who knows his shit unlike us.[/url]
[quote=David Sirlin]The worst thing you can have in a competitive multiplayer game is a dominant move (or weapon, character, unit, whatever). I don’t mean a move that is merely good, I mean a move that is strictly better than any other you could do, so its very existence reduces the strategy of the game. A dominant move also probably has no real counter, so even if the opponent knows you will do it, there’s not a lot they can do.[/quote]
[b]So strictly speaking for weapons, an overpowered weapon is a weapon "that is strictly better than any other" weapon "you could use, so its very existence reduces the strategy of the game"[/b]
How do you decide if something is "stricly better"? By playtesting. Has weapon X been proven to be run exclusively in 6s or allowed a very specific uncounterable move or strategy to be pulled? If no, then it should not be banned.
Some currently banned weapons agree to this definition : atomizer, crit a cola, vitasaw, quickfix for example.
Interestingly, some beloved weapons agree to this too : gunboats or crossbow for example.
[quote=Hildreth] How do you define a "Broken weapon".
[/quote]
This one is the easiest. It's a weapon with a mechanic that does not work as intended by the developpers. For example, the pomson when the projectile could become invisible, or taunts that fucked up the hitboxes.
The whole 'fun' element can not be used when you want to objectively balance the game, because fun is by definition subjective. And saying 'a majority of people agree on what fun is therefore we should do X' is just shitting on the rest of the players who think otherwise, so it does the complete opposite of bringing everyone together as the player MR_SLIN claims.[/quote]
I mean that is fine, he's at least tried to explain it - However he opens a can of worms, if you follow this definition strictly, then the crossbow should be banned, but if that is the case everyone will be in uproar because Medics love the crossbow and in general teams like it because it makes heals/ubers and everything more efficient. But it's vastly superior to any alternatives. The gunboats is a similar proposition, but I don't think should be in the same category because sometimes teams used battalions backup or shotgun to add an extra dynamic to their play.
But therein lies the problems with whitelists - You made your own definition of what an unbalanced weapon is yet don't have the balls to enforce it being banned because it ruins the "subjective" fun of the gamemode. That's the issue, the inconsistencies of whitelists - Some weapons are deemed banned because of this definition (Vitasaw for example) whilst others that fit it perfectly (Crossbow) remain unbanned because it's subjectively seen as "More fun" by people, even though the argument is "Fun is subjective so should not matter".
Either ban all of the unlocks that fit this definition or allow them, no middle ground because it's inconsistent and turns the whitelist into what it is today - A muddle of unlocks decided by a rabble of people wanting to enforce their own views on game balance onto a stagnating, hybrid and chaotic version of TF2 that is different from anything seen elsewhere including the Matchmaking mod - The very thing the developers tried to introduce to support the competitive community.
And the idea that MR Slin knows his shit more than any other person is laughable, he's a person with views and opinions like everyone else, difference is he uses his social media platform to launch it and has spread his ideas to a point where leagues listen to him. Don't get me wrong I'd rather they listened to him over some of these idiots I see posting here, but nobody is special - He just has more a direction he wants to take the game - Good for him.[/quote]
[/spoiler]
To differentiate "fun" from "unfun" unlocks you could use the mechanical skill required for using said unlock.
For example, vitasaw requires nothing to do in particular, while gunboats emphasizes rocket jumping, or crossbow rewards medics with good aim.
maxc232Viperi can't wait for scouts that can jump 5 times in a row
wait is it banned for lan or from here on out
soda popper is entirely inconsequential to the game
5 jumps is inconsequential???
you physically dont have to land, shoot and reload extremely fast. the only thing that can stop u from botting on a med is a scout that has to literally hit
EVERY
SINGLE
SHOT
but yeah thats fucking inconsequential
like god dammit it was banned in HL i thought we wouldve used our common sense in this situation but i guess the fuck not
[quote=maxc232][quote=Viper]i can't wait for scouts that can jump 5 times in a row
wait is it banned for lan or from here on out[/quote]
soda popper is entirely inconsequential to the game[/quote]
5 jumps is inconsequential???
you physically dont have to land, shoot and reload extremely fast. the only thing that can stop u from botting on a med is a scout that has to literally hit
EVERY
SINGLE
SHOT
but yeah thats fucking inconsequential
like god dammit it was banned in HL i thought we wouldve used our common sense in this situation but i guess the fuck not
wait is it banned for lan or from here on out[/quote]
soda popper is entirely inconsequential to the game[/quote]
5 jumps is inconsequential???
you physically dont have to land, shoot and reload extremely fast. the only thing that can stop u from botting on a med is a scout that has to literally hit
EVERY
SINGLE
SHOT
but yeah thats fucking inconsequential
like god dammit it was banned in HL i thought we wouldve used our common sense in this situation but i guess the fuck not
yes it's inconsequential lol
how many times does a play like that happen?
you can activate this at most every minute if you're good (350 damage required)
accept that someone is willing to put himself at a disadvantage in combat (compared to stock) for the possibility of doing a play every once in a while ; this weapon is not stricly better than FaN or stock.
yes it's inconsequential lol
how many times does a play like that happen?
you can activate this at most every minute if you're good (350 damage required)
accept that someone is willing to put himself at a disadvantage in combat (compared to stock) for the possibility of doing a play every once in a while ; this weapon is not stricly better than FaN or stock.
how many times does a play like that happen?
you can activate this at most every minute if you're good (350 damage required)
accept that someone is willing to put himself at a disadvantage in combat (compared to stock) for the possibility of doing a play every once in a while ; this weapon is not stricly better than FaN or stock.
so loch stays unbanned..? screw you guys
god i just love eating pipes from half way across the map with a projectile you can't even see
so loch stays unbanned..? screw you guys
god i just love eating pipes from half way across the map with a projectile you can't even see
god i just love eating pipes from half way across the map with a projectile you can't even see
what the heck lol didnt you have like 15 page discussion last time soda popper was unbanned and then after one ban you unban it AGAIN somehow
what in the world was that meeting???
what the heck lol didnt you have like 15 page discussion last time soda popper was unbanned and then after one ban you unban it AGAIN somehow
what in the world was that meeting???
what in the world was that meeting???
i know a majority of those players in the meeting have never played hl but just trust me when i say the soda popper was absolutely awful to play against
incredible burst damage and higher overall dps coupled with atomizer level aids is not a good unlock by any stretch, especially for 6's. it's already bad enough in highlander with literal sentry aimbots, heavies, and pyros pressing m2. please please reconsider that one.
i know a majority of those players in the meeting have never played hl but just trust me when i say the soda popper was absolutely awful to play against
incredible burst damage and higher overall dps coupled with atomizer level aids is not a good unlock by any stretch, especially for 6's. it's already bad enough in highlander with literal sentry aimbots, heavies, and pyros pressing m2. please please reconsider that one.
incredible burst damage and higher overall dps coupled with atomizer level aids is not a good unlock by any stretch, especially for 6's. it's already bad enough in highlander with literal sentry aimbots, heavies, and pyros pressing m2. please please reconsider that one.
Please
sign in through STEAM
to post a comment.