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Whitelists survey results
1
#1
0 Frags +

Yet another fucking survey results thread, last one though I promise

The questions were a choice between a few different whitelists that gradually reduced the numbers of unlocks, but only one of them really cut some of the most controversial unlocks. The survey wasn’t perfect, but it still contains some useful data.

EU outvoted NA in this survey by about a 4:3 ratio and there are some differences between the two regions in voting. Anyone interpreting these results themselves should probably try to take this into account.

The full results

http://i.imgur.com/fNfay6y.png

There is significant support for a much shorter whitelist, but as I marked on the graph it’s also the only option for anybody that wants to cut the most controversial unlocks, so some people who feel passionately about getting rid of those were probably pushed into this option.

There was probably room for an additional whitelist option that cut all the most controversial and had a more generous whitelist for other items, which might be why all these options suck has a decent showing.

Also the current global whitelist is receiving very little support, there is clearly a significant appetite for some change to remove a significant number of items, and even taking into account the possible flaws in the survey design it’s clearly pointing in the direction of a significant number of bans.

Regional Differences

http://i.imgur.com/NP6LFZK.png

http://i.imgur.com/fDYYsGh.png

The EU in general has a more hardline approach to the whitelists, significantly preferring a much shorter list and getting rid of things like crossbow, vaccinator, etc. NA still supports that option the most, but the balance of power is clearly closer to a less draconian whitelist option overall.

One thing to note is that the proportionate differences between the regions aren’t shifted around evenly, support for the intermediate whitelist 7182 is roughly the same - NA has a lot more support for both the status quo and a more permissive whitelist with just a handful of least popular unlocks removed.

The reasons for this are unclear, but it’s possible that the league fees in ESEA are something that discourages troll play a bit so maybe they aren’t exposed to it to the same degree.

http://i.imgur.com/7tRT4T7.png

The “Other” group regional group is relatively small, but very very strongly in favour of reducing the whitelist heavily.

There is also a difference in how NA and EU approached the idea of voting for the greater good

http://i.imgur.com/V1fODWC.png

NA had a higher percentage of people voting on the basis of the good of the game rather than simple gameplay considerations, but the majority in both scenes still voted on gameplay considerations.

A matter of principal

One of the survey questions was about voting motivation, were people voting for gameplay, for the greater good, or for a laugh.

http://i.imgur.com/ksMd3h0.png

People voting on what they think is the greater good are much more likely to pick a broader whitelist, support the current global whitelist, and much less likely to want to have a very restricted whitelist.

This doesn’t mean that everyone in this group is more in favour of the current whitelist, there is still a majority in favour of larger cuts to the whitelist, but there is a clear over representation of more permissive lists amongst those that are voting for reasons beyond just gameplay.

http://i.imgur.com/a4TYRaw.png

People voting purely on gameplay considerations were much more in favour of a heavily reduced whitelist, with the current whitelist’s support dwindling to nearly “all these options suck” levels.

One thing both types of voter were united on was a solid 7% thinking all these options suck.

The casual view?

http://i.imgur.com/3IBXoU7.png

Players that self identified as using a pickup or matchmaking service rather than league play weren’t heavily represented in the survey, but they were more supportive of the current whitelist than any other group I’ve looked at, and more likely to think all these options suck… which is still a vote against the status quo.

To be honest it really just looks like they don’t have a strong identity as a group, and there’s no really strong overriding opinion about what these players want although the sample is small.

Unfortunately the "New to league play" group was too small to offer a significant opinion

Conclusion

There is a clear desire across all groups to move away from the current global whitelist. I did try to structure the survey in a way that didn’t undermine the current whitelist unfairly, but there was probably room for another whitelist between the medium one and the heavily cut one I presented that also removed some contentious unlocks that maintain some support.

There is about as broad of a consensus as can be expected that some of the most disliked unlocks have to be removed, things like Jarate, Natascha, Pomson, etc, regardless of actual use. There is considerable support for getting tougher and removing a lot of other stuff as well, but the point it becomes contentious is when you start removing cow mangler, crossbow, etc.

The item voting would suggest that amongst the low hanging fruit of unlocks I only removed in the most extreme list would be things like the Cow Mangler and Vaccinator. The crossbow would of course be the biggest point of contention, and maybe something those that want a heavily reduced whitelist might be expected to compromise on as it’s the most controversial unlock that has overall positive support.

Ultimately this schism isn’t going to go away until Valve makes their own matchmaking offering compelling enough for it to not matter, if ever. In the meantime admins are going to have to navigate this difficult territory, hopefully this data is of some help.

Yet another fucking survey results thread, last one though I promise

The questions were a choice between a few different whitelists that gradually reduced the numbers of unlocks, but only one of them really cut some of the most controversial unlocks. The survey wasn’t perfect, but it still contains some useful data.

EU outvoted NA in this survey by about a 4:3 ratio and there are some differences between the two regions in voting. Anyone interpreting these results themselves should probably try to take this into account.

[b]The full results[/b]
[img]http://i.imgur.com/fNfay6y.png[/img]

There is significant support for a much shorter whitelist, but as I marked on the graph it’s also the only option for anybody that wants to cut the most controversial unlocks, so some people who feel passionately about getting rid of those were probably pushed into this option.

There was probably room for an additional whitelist option that cut all the most controversial and had a more generous whitelist for other items, which might be why all these options suck has a decent showing.

Also the current global whitelist is receiving very little support, there is clearly a significant appetite for some change to remove a significant number of items, and even taking into account the possible flaws in the survey design it’s clearly pointing in the direction of a significant number of bans.

[b]Regional Differences[/b]
[img]http://i.imgur.com/NP6LFZK.png[/img]

[img]http://i.imgur.com/fDYYsGh.png[/img]

The EU in general has a more hardline approach to the whitelists, significantly preferring a much shorter list and getting rid of things like crossbow, vaccinator, etc. NA still supports that option the most, but the balance of power is clearly closer to a less draconian whitelist option overall.

One thing to note is that the proportionate differences between the regions aren’t shifted around evenly, support for the intermediate whitelist 7182 is roughly the same - NA has a lot more support for both the status quo and a more permissive whitelist with just a handful of least popular unlocks removed.

The reasons for this are unclear, but it’s possible that the league fees in ESEA are something that discourages troll play a bit so maybe they aren’t exposed to it to the same degree.

[img]http://i.imgur.com/7tRT4T7.png[/img]
The “Other” group regional group is relatively small, but very very strongly in favour of reducing the whitelist heavily.

There is also a difference in how NA and EU approached the idea of voting for the greater good

[img]http://i.imgur.com/V1fODWC.png[/img]
NA had a higher percentage of people voting on the basis of the good of the game rather than simple gameplay considerations, but the majority in both scenes still voted on gameplay considerations.

[b]A matter of principal[/b]

One of the survey questions was about voting motivation, were people voting for gameplay, for the greater good, or for a laugh.

[img]http://i.imgur.com/ksMd3h0.png[/img]
People voting on what they think is the greater good are much more likely to pick a broader whitelist, support the current global whitelist, and much less likely to want to have a very restricted whitelist.

This doesn’t mean that everyone in this group is more in favour of the current whitelist, there is still a majority in favour of larger cuts to the whitelist, but there is a clear over representation of more permissive lists amongst those that are voting for reasons beyond just gameplay.

[img]http://i.imgur.com/a4TYRaw.png[/img]
People voting purely on gameplay considerations were much more in favour of a heavily reduced whitelist, with the current whitelist’s support dwindling to nearly “all these options suck” levels.

One thing both types of voter were united on was a solid 7% thinking all these options suck.

[b]The casual view?[/b]

[img]http://i.imgur.com/3IBXoU7.png[/img]
Players that self identified as using a pickup or matchmaking service rather than league play weren’t heavily represented in the survey, but they were more supportive of the current whitelist than any other group I’ve looked at, and more likely to think all these options suck… which is still a vote against the status quo.

To be honest it really just looks like they don’t have a strong identity as a group, and there’s no really strong overriding opinion about what these players want although the sample is small.

Unfortunately the "New to league play" group was too small to offer a significant opinion

[b]Conclusion[/b]

There is a clear desire across all groups to move away from the current global whitelist. I did try to structure the survey in a way that didn’t undermine the current whitelist unfairly, but there was probably room for another whitelist between the medium one and the heavily cut one I presented that also removed some contentious unlocks that maintain some support.

There is about as broad of a consensus as can be expected that some of the most disliked unlocks have to be removed, things like Jarate, Natascha, Pomson, etc, regardless of actual use. There is considerable support for getting tougher and removing a lot of other stuff as well, but the point it becomes contentious is when you start removing cow mangler, crossbow, etc.

The item voting would suggest that amongst the low hanging fruit of unlocks I only removed in the most extreme list would be things like the Cow Mangler and Vaccinator. The crossbow would of course be the biggest point of contention, and maybe something those that want a heavily reduced whitelist might be expected to compromise on as it’s the most controversial unlock that has overall positive support.

Ultimately this schism isn’t going to go away until Valve makes their own matchmaking offering compelling enough for it to not matter, if ever. In the meantime admins are going to have to navigate this difficult territory, hopefully this data is of some help.
2
#2
16 Frags +

The fact that 40% want to go back to 2010 surprises me.

The fact that 40% want to go back to 2010 surprises me.
3
#3
-4 Frags +

Surprising considering certain people have told me "lol shut up open player actually lots of people at the top level want an open whitelist". Glad to see people aren't actually that stupid

Surprising considering certain people have told me "lol shut up open player actually lots of people at the top level want an open whitelist". Glad to see people aren't actually that stupid
4
#4
-7 Frags +
shorasThe fact that 40% want to go back to 2010 surprises me.

It's because the bulk of 2017 tf2 players weren't around in 2010.

Any idea when we'll get the results of the very big survey with questions on each unlock?

[quote=shoras]The fact that 40% want to go back to 2010 surprises me.[/quote]
It's because the bulk of 2017 tf2 players weren't around in 2010.

Any idea when we'll get the results of the very big survey with questions on each unlock?
5
#5
3 Frags +
TwiggyAny idea when we'll get the results of the very big survey with questions on each unlock?

This one? http://www.teamfortress.tv/41065/unlock-survey-results

[quote=Twiggy]Any idea when we'll get the results of the very big survey with questions on each unlock?[/quote]
This one? [url=http://www.teamfortress.tv/41065/unlock-survey-results]http://www.teamfortress.tv/41065/unlock-survey-results[/url]
6
#6
8 Frags +
TwiggyshorasThe fact that 40% want to go back to 2010 surprises me.It's because the bulk of 2017 tf2 players weren't around in 2010.

Any idea when we'll get the results of the very big survey with questions on each unlock?

I wasn't around in 2010 but I was around in 2014 and I'd describe that as "a shorter whitelist". I'd say shoras is being a bit exaggerated when he says players want to go back to 2010.

[quote=Twiggy][quote=shoras]The fact that 40% want to go back to 2010 surprises me.[/quote]
It's because the bulk of 2017 tf2 players weren't around in 2010.

Any idea when we'll get the results of the very big survey with questions on each unlock?[/quote]

I wasn't around in 2010 but I was around in 2014 and I'd describe that as "a shorter whitelist". I'd say shoras is being a bit exaggerated when he says players want to go back to 2010.
7
#7
2 Frags +
CyanicSurprising considering certain people have told me "lol shut up open player actually lots of people at the top level want an open whitelist". Glad to see people aren't actually that stupid

when did people at the top level become the majority of tftv posters

[quote=Cyanic]Surprising considering certain people have told me "lol shut up open player actually lots of people at the top level want an open whitelist". Glad to see people aren't actually that stupid[/quote]
when did people at the top level become the majority of tftv posters
8
#8
-2 Frags +
MenachemCyanicSurprising considering certain people have told me "lol shut up open player actually lots of people at the top level want an open whitelist". Glad to see people aren't actually that stupidwhen did people at the top level become the majority of tftv posters

wait it was a tftv survey? i'm dumb

[quote=Menachem][quote=Cyanic]Surprising considering certain people have told me "lol shut up open player actually lots of people at the top level want an open whitelist". Glad to see people aren't actually that stupid[/quote]
when did people at the top level become the majority of tftv posters[/quote]

wait it was a tftv survey? i'm dumb
9
#9
-4 Frags +

unban everything and drink the tears

unban everything and drink the tears
10
#10
3 Frags +

If only I was not colorblind and could differentiate those tiny squares from each other.

If only I was not colorblind and could differentiate those tiny squares from each other.
11
#11
3 Frags +
PuoskariIf only I was not colorblind and could differentiate those tiny squares from each other.

You can just tell by the order. The option that's the most popular will be at the top in the legend, the second biggest will be right under it, etc.

Even if you weren't having issues with color, you probably should just tell be the order anyway, since it changes for each graph (sometimes "a shorter whitelist" is the most popular making it blue, but in one graph it's the second biggest making it orange, and it's a little confusing).

[quote=Puoskari]If only I was not colorblind and could differentiate those tiny squares from each other.[/quote]
You can just tell by the order. The option that's the most popular will be at the top in the legend, the second biggest will be right under it, etc.

Even if you weren't having issues with color, you probably should just tell be the order anyway, since it changes for each graph (sometimes "a shorter whitelist" is the most popular making it blue, but in one graph it's the second biggest making it orange, and it's a little confusing).
12
#12
0 Frags +
PuoskariIf only I was not colorblind and could differentiate those tiny squares from each other.

Yeah I noticed that it wasn't that readable a while after I posted it, as said above you can read it with the titles clockwise from top right. The global whitelist sometimes pops up ahead of some of the more similar compromise options but is usually less favoured, the shorter whitelist is almost always the most voted for.

It's probably reasonably representative with consideration needed for likely selection bias, and the fact the options presented may not have been given careful enough consideration.

[quote=Puoskari]If only I was not colorblind and could differentiate those tiny squares from each other.[/quote]
Yeah I noticed that it wasn't that readable a while after I posted it, as said above you can read it with the titles clockwise from top right. The global whitelist sometimes pops up ahead of some of the more similar compromise options but is usually less favoured, the shorter whitelist is almost always the most voted for.

It's probably reasonably representative with consideration needed for likely selection bias, and the fact the options presented may not have been given careful enough consideration.
13
#13
1 Frags +

i was around in 2011 and i can say playing with just a few unlocks was extremely demanding for me and my team yet endlessly satisfying just because you managed to win your enemy on even ground and not due to stupid gimmick on any side

i was around in 2011 and i can say playing with just a few unlocks was extremely demanding for me and my team yet endlessly satisfying just because you managed to win your enemy on even ground and not due to stupid gimmick on any side
14
#14
0 Frags +
GentlemanJonTwiggyAny idea when we'll get the results of the very big survey with questions on each unlock?This one? http://www.teamfortress.tv/41065/unlock-survey-results

woopsies, yep, thanks!

[quote=GentlemanJon][quote=Twiggy]Any idea when we'll get the results of the very big survey with questions on each unlock?[/quote]
This one? [url=http://www.teamfortress.tv/41065/unlock-survey-results]http://www.teamfortress.tv/41065/unlock-survey-results[/url][/quote]

woopsies, yep, thanks!
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