New players do not want to pay to play in a league that they are just going to get shit on.
If you are playing this game for the money you are in the wrong place. Prize pools are irreverent at this point. The sponsors are not coming back. The ESEA client does not prevent cheaters in TF2.
We need to stop clinging onto the short term benefit that ESEA brings and look more towards the long term sustainability a free community league would bring to our 10 year old game.
Discuss
New players do not want to pay to play in a league that they are just going to get shit on.
If you are playing this game for the money you are in the wrong place. Prize pools are irreverent at this point. The sponsors are not coming back. The ESEA client does not prevent cheaters in TF2.
We need to stop clinging onto the short term benefit that ESEA brings and look more towards the long term sustainability a free community league would bring to our 10 year old game.
Discuss
UGC is a joke league ran by incompetent admins. What we need is a ETF2L clone.
UGC is a joke league ran by incompetent admins. What we need is a ETF2L clone.
free leagues do not work because there is nothing at the top to work towards
ugc had this problem with highlander; platinum highlander players just simply quit after a season or two. there was no incentive to continue playing as they were already in the highest division, couldn't beat dk (who were/are undefeated), and there is no money to play for. eventually, platinum hl just began hemmoraging players because people at the top just kept quitting
paid leagues work because prize pools at the top are a huge incentive for players at the top to continue playing. however, invite has had the problem of a raised buy-in due to the lower amount of players in open and IM.
ESEA is the only option NA TF2 has for the forseeable future. NATF2L would not work because there would be no incentive for players like rando and Bdonski to continue playing as even getting a guaranteed second place yields them no prize money. And the only reason ETF2L has managed to continue its Prem division for so long is because of a contract with Thermaltake that guarenteed a $1,000 prize pool for prem every season. And now that the contract is over and Premiership is left without a prize pool, the fun of playing and improving is the only thing keeping them in the game.
The core of EVL would immediately retire and you know some players in Invite would eventually leave if ESEA dropped TF2.
If we support ESEA, we could eventually see the return of ESEA LAN and maybe even an expansion of ESEA into Europe and the increase of prize pools. But if you believe that NA would be better off with free leagues run by incompetent admins, then I guess there's UGC for you.
free leagues do not work because there is nothing at the top to work towards
ugc had this problem with highlander; platinum highlander players just simply quit after a season or two. there was no incentive to continue playing as they were already in the highest division, couldn't beat dk (who were/are undefeated), and there is no money to play for. eventually, platinum hl just began hemmoraging players because people at the top just kept quitting
paid leagues work because prize pools at the top are a huge incentive for players at the top to continue playing. however, invite has had the problem of a raised buy-in due to the lower amount of players in open and IM.
ESEA is the only option NA TF2 has for the forseeable future. NATF2L would not work because there would be no incentive for players like rando and Bdonski to continue playing as even getting a guaranteed second place yields them no prize money. And the only reason ETF2L has managed to continue its Prem division for so long is because of a contract with Thermaltake that guarenteed a $1,000 prize pool for prem every season. And now that the contract is over and Premiership is left without a prize pool, the fun of playing and improving is the only thing keeping them in the game.
The core of EVL would immediately retire and you know some players in Invite would eventually leave if ESEA dropped TF2.
If we support ESEA, we could eventually see the return of ESEA LAN and maybe even an expansion of ESEA into Europe and the increase of prize pools. But if you believe that NA would be better off with free leagues run by incompetent admins, then I guess there's UGC for you.
also I cant get in the match rn, able to join a server but cant join a team and get disconnected afterwards
Great timing lol
also I cant get in the match rn, able to join a server but cant join a team and get disconnected afterwards
Great timing lol
idk if anyone has seen this post, so i'd drop it here
FanglesSo I may or may not be at a table with the CIO of turtle entertainment and apparently tf2 won't be dropped till there aren't enough teams. So just don't die guys.
idk if anyone has seen this post, so i'd drop it here
[quote=Fangles]So I may or may not be at a table with the CIO of turtle entertainment and apparently tf2 won't be dropped till there aren't enough teams. So just don't die guys.[/quote]
bleghfarecfree leagues do not work because there is nothing at the top to work towards
This is already the case with ESEA.
ugc had this problem with highlander
Highlander is the problem with highlander
platinum highlander players just simply quit after a season or two. there was no incentive to continue playing as they were already in the highest division, couldn't beat dk (who were/are undefeated), and there is no money to play for. eventually, platinum hl just began hemmoraging players because people at the top just kept quitting
Nobody continues playing HL because the top level of play in HL is Open level. If you want to advance you play 6s.
paid leagues work because prize pools at the top are a huge incentive for players at the top to continue playing. however, invite has had the problem of a raised buy-in due to the lower amount of players in open and IM
The prize pools have always been irreverent. There has NEVER been a significant financial incentive to play TF2. If you like the game play it. If not leave. If you are playing for money you are in the wrong game anyways.
ESEA is the only option NA TF2 has for the forseeable future. NATF2L would not work because there would be no incentive for players like rando and Bdonski to continue playing as even getting a guaranteed second place yields them no prize money. And the only reason ETF2L has managed to continue its Prem division for so long is because of a contract with Thermaltake that guarenteed a $1,000 prize pool for prem every season. And now that the contract is over and Premiership is left without a prize pool, the fun of playing is the only thing keeping them in the game.
As someone who played ETF2L NOBODY was playing for the money.
The core of EVL would immediately retire and you know some players in Invite would eventually leave if ESEA dropped TF2.
Players leave. This isn't new. Sometimes you have to cut out the cancer to save the rest of the body.
If we support ESEA, we could eventually see the return of ESEA LAN and maybe even an expansion of ESEA into Europe and the rising of prize pools.
Keep dreaming.
But if you believe that NA would be better off with free leagues run by incompetent admins, then I guess you can play UGC.
Could have sworn i mentioned this already.
[quote=bleghfarec]free leagues do not work because there is nothing at the top to work towards[/quote]
This is already the case with ESEA.
[quote] ugc had this problem with highlander[/quote]
Highlander is the problem with highlander
[quote] platinum highlander players just simply quit after a season or two. there was no incentive to continue playing as they were already in the highest division, couldn't beat dk (who were/are undefeated), and there is no money to play for. eventually, platinum hl just began hemmoraging players because people at the top just kept quitting [/quote]
Nobody continues playing HL because the top level of play in HL is Open level. If you want to advance you play 6s.
[quote] paid leagues work because prize pools at the top are a huge incentive for players at the top to continue playing. however, invite has had the problem of a raised buy-in due to the lower amount of players in open and IM[/quote]
The prize pools have always been irreverent. There has NEVER been a significant financial incentive to play TF2. If you like the game play it. If not leave. If you are playing for money you are in the wrong game anyways.
[quote] ESEA is the only option NA TF2 has for the forseeable future. NATF2L would not work because there would be no incentive for players like rando and Bdonski to continue playing as even getting a guaranteed second place yields them no prize money. And the only reason ETF2L has managed to continue its Prem division for so long is because of a contract with Thermaltake that guarenteed a $1,000 prize pool for prem every season. And now that the contract is over and Premiership is left without a prize pool, the fun of playing is the only thing keeping them in the game.[/quote]
As someone who played ETF2L NOBODY was playing for the money.
[quote] The core of EVL would immediately retire and you know some players in Invite would eventually leave if ESEA dropped TF2.[/quote]
Players leave. This isn't new. Sometimes you have to cut out the cancer to save the rest of the body.
[quote] If we support ESEA, we could eventually see the return of ESEA LAN and maybe even an expansion of ESEA into Europe and the rising of prize pools. [/quote]
Keep dreaming.
[quote] But if you believe that NA would be better off with free leagues run by incompetent admins, then I guess you can play UGC.[/quote]
Could have sworn i mentioned this already.
i mean yes but also no
it's the only thing keeping NA tf2 on it's feet atm so i don't think we should just jump ship and let ESEA drop the game entirely
i agree the entire situation with ESEA is very bad right now but who knows what could happen
best case scenario the pyro update drops and makes the game interesting again at a competitive level to watch AND play and attracts more players if valve plays their cards right (don't hold your breath for that tho)
i mean yes but also no
it's the only thing keeping NA tf2 on it's feet atm so i don't think we should just jump ship and let ESEA drop the game entirely
i agree the entire situation with ESEA is very bad right now but who knows what could happen
best case scenario the pyro update drops and makes the game interesting again at a competitive level to watch AND play and attracts more players if valve plays their cards right (don't hold your breath for that tho)
bleghfarecfree leagues do not work because there is nothing at the top to work towards
If we support ESEA, we could eventually see the return of ESEA LAN and maybe even an expansion of ESEA into Europe and the increase of prize pools. But if you believe that NA would be better off with free leagues run by incompetent admins, then I guess there's UGC for you.
I have to disagree. Unless a miracle happens, we simply don't have enough invite teams to harness a LAN through ESEA, and it doesn't help, that now we are constricting players from joining ESEA, by making open a much harder division by combining open and Im. We've waited for a while, but ESEA even as whole has been in slow decline, and the thought of ESEA reviving a LAN for tf2 is highly unlikely.
[quote=bleghfarec]free leagues do not work because there is nothing at the top to work towards
If we support ESEA, we could eventually see the return of ESEA LAN and maybe even an expansion of ESEA into Europe and the increase of prize pools. But if you believe that NA would be better off with free leagues run by incompetent admins, then I guess there's UGC for you.[/quote]
I have to disagree. Unless a miracle happens, we simply don't have enough invite teams to harness a LAN through ESEA, and it doesn't help, that now we are constricting players from joining ESEA, by making open a much harder division by combining open and Im. We've waited for a while, but ESEA even as whole has been in slow decline, and the thought of ESEA reviving a LAN for tf2 is highly unlikely.
We cant even get ESEA to let us keep IM. What makes you people think we are going to get our lan back? How delusional do you have to be?
We cant even get ESEA to let us keep IM. What makes you people think we are going to get our lan back? How delusional do you have to be?
Screwballbleghfarecfree leagues do not work because there is nothing at the top to work towards
This is already the case with ESEA
the invite prize money is pretty nice considering everyone plays the game as a hobby
[quote=Screwball][quote=bleghfarec]free leagues do not work because there is nothing at the top to work towards[/quote]
This is already the case with ESEA [/quote]
the invite prize money is pretty nice considering everyone plays the game as a hobby
Lets uh jump ship from ESEA if/when we get a better more sustainable league
Lets uh jump ship from ESEA if/when we get a better more sustainable league
EasyELets uh jump ship from ESEA if/when we get a better more sustainable league
We should just piggyback on ETF2L and call it a day.
[quote=EasyE]Lets uh jump ship from ESEA if/when we get a better more sustainable league[/quote]
We should just piggyback on ETF2L and call it a day.
I feel like everybody keeps on forgetting TFCL is a thing
I feel like everybody keeps on forgetting TFCL is a thing
I think it's time for ETF2L to extend its services to NATF2L
I think it's time for ETF2L to extend its services to NATF2L
I guess this is nothing unusual in a gaming community, but I've been watching ESEA since season 7 and I feel like the TF2 community has been hoping for something else for a long time.
IMO the prize pool argument is worthless as soon as you consider the time invested by the players in the top 4 invite teams. Return on investment with TF2 is pretty piss poor for anyone who values their time.
My point: Everyone who plays TF2 plays it because they like it.
Only trade scammers really try to make money from it and I think we all agree that they can just eat shit and die.
The NA 6's community enjoys exclusivity, and there's nothing wrong with that until they complain about not having enough teams/money. TF2 is not as big as other games, but many of the people in ESEA have the skills and ability to recruit more people to the league from pubs, pugs, UGC or wherever; that would require humility, charisma and patience... so they don't really do that.
I guess this is nothing unusual in a gaming community, but I've been watching ESEA since season 7 and I feel like the TF2 community has been hoping for something else for a long time.
IMO the prize pool argument is worthless as soon as you consider the time invested by the players in the top 4 invite teams. Return on investment with TF2 is pretty piss poor for anyone who values their time.
My point: Everyone who plays TF2 plays it because they like it.
Only trade scammers really try to make money from it and I think we all agree that they can just eat shit and die.
The NA 6's community enjoys exclusivity, and there's nothing wrong with that until they complain about not having enough teams/money. TF2 is not as big as other games, but many of the people in ESEA have the skills and ability to recruit more people to the league from pubs, pugs, UGC or wherever; that would require humility, charisma and patience... so they don't really do that.
ah now the question is:
when do we get the sweet dm plugin you guys have over in europe
ah now the question is:
when do we get the sweet dm plugin you guys have over in europe
ScrewballWe cant even get ESEA to let us keep IM. What makes you people think we are going to get our lan back? How delusional do you have to be?
While you do make a valid point, I think it's actually been determined recently that the reason IM died was because a few sandbag teams tried to play the "not me" game in hopes that some other team would actually step up and save the division while they would be able to stay in open. Correct me if I'm wrong but from reading the news after the announcement that's what I got from it.
However, the fact that there has been such a struggle as of late to just get enough teams to keep the division alive shows that IM being compromised may not be that bad, as there wasn't really much difference between high Open and low IM other than what division the team would end up being placed in. Maybe things will turn out for the better from this move for the teams involved or this might be the final nail in the coffin. Hopefully it's not the latter, but only time will tell.
edit: I probably could have written a whole editorial on this topic alone but I'm unfortunately getting wrapped up in school stuff and other IRL things that I should have taken care of a long time ago
ConsoleI feel like everybody keeps on forgetting TFCL is a thing
the only real way I could see TFCL becoming the league where everyone goes to play comp tf2 is either
- the majority of the top invite teams flock to TFCL while TFCL offers some prize to play for that's much better than what ESEA is offering (this is the most unlikely imo)
- enough open teams flock to TFCL, killing the division
- ESEA stops supporting competitive tf2 altogether
[quote=Screwball]We cant even get ESEA to let us keep IM. What makes you people think we are going to get our lan back? How delusional do you have to be?[/quote]
While you do make a valid point, I think it's actually been determined recently that the reason IM died was because a few sandbag teams tried to play the "not me" game in hopes that some other team would actually step up and save the division while they would be able to stay in open. Correct me if I'm wrong but from reading the news after the announcement that's what I got from it.
However, the fact that there has been such a struggle as of late to just get enough teams to keep the division alive shows that IM being compromised may not be that bad, as there wasn't really much difference between high Open and low IM other than what division the team would end up being placed in. Maybe things will turn out for the better from this move for the teams involved or this might be the final nail in the coffin. Hopefully it's not the latter, but only time will tell.
edit: I probably could have written a whole editorial on this topic alone but I'm unfortunately getting wrapped up in school stuff and other IRL things that I should have taken care of a long time ago
[quote=Console]I feel like everybody keeps on forgetting TFCL is a thing[/quote]
the only real way I could see TFCL becoming the league where everyone goes to play comp tf2 is either
[olist]
[*] the majority of the top invite teams flock to TFCL while TFCL offers some prize to play for that's much better than what ESEA is offering (this is the most unlikely imo)
[*] enough open teams flock to TFCL, killing the division
[*] ESEA stops supporting competitive tf2 altogether
[/olist]
trust me, i'm for natf2l completely, but why burn our bridge with esea before etf2l even extends an olive branch officially?
what if, by some unknown reason etf2l doesn't create an natf2l and we burn our bridges with esea, then what? call the game dead and call it a day?
serious talks of natf2l with etf2l admins must be done before we can all condone this action
trust me, i'm for natf2l completely, but why burn our bridge with esea before etf2l even extends an olive branch officially?
what if, by some unknown reason etf2l doesn't create an natf2l and we burn our bridges with esea, then what? call the game dead and call it a day?
serious talks of natf2l with etf2l admins must be done before we can all condone this action
vipertrust me, i'm for natf2l completely, but why burn our bridge with esea before etf2l even extends an olive branch officially?
what if, by some unknown reason etf2l doesn't create an natf2l and we burn our bridges with esea, then what? call the game dead and call it a day?
TFCL
[quote=viper]trust me, i'm for natf2l completely, but why burn our bridge with esea before etf2l even extends an olive branch officially?
what if, by some unknown reason etf2l doesn't create an natf2l and we burn our bridges with esea, then what? call the game dead and call it a day?[/quote]
TFCL
vipertrust me, i'm for natf2l completely, but why burn our bridge with esea before etf2l even extends an olive branch officially?
The bridge is not up to OSHA standards
serious talks of natf2l with etf2l admins must be done before we can all condone this action
Then lets get it done. I just added the ETF2L head admins. Hopefully we can get the ball rolling. I would appreciate if some better known high level players would join me in this endeavor.
[quote=viper]trust me, i'm for natf2l completely, but why burn our bridge with esea before etf2l even extends an olive branch officially?[/quote] The bridge is not up to OSHA standards
[quote]serious talks of natf2l with etf2l admins must be done before we can all condone this action[/quote]
Then lets get it done. I just added the ETF2L head admins. Hopefully we can get the ball rolling. I would appreciate if some better known high level players would join me in this endeavor.
realistically would top invite teams even switch to another league without a prizepool?
i mean i understand esea sucks and all but froyotech and evl have a shot at $5600 every season as opposed to no prizepool at all
realistically would top invite teams even switch to another league without a prizepool?
i mean i understand esea sucks and all but froyotech and evl have a shot at $5600 every season as opposed to no prizepool at all
pyxelizerealistically would top invite teams even switch to another league without a prizepool?
i mean i understand esea sucks and all but froyotech and evl have a shot at $5600 every season as opposed to no prizepool at all
Fuck em. This needs done to the sake of TF2 as a whole. The current state of affairs is NOT sustainable.
[quote=pyxelize]realistically would top invite teams even switch to another league without a prizepool?
i mean i understand esea sucks and all but froyotech and evl have a shot at $5600 every season as opposed to no prizepool at all[/quote]
Fuck em. This needs done to the sake of TF2 as a whole. The current state of affairs is NOT sustainable.
Screwballpyxelizerealistically would top invite teams even switch to another league without a prizepool?
i mean i understand esea sucks and all but froyotech and evl have a shot at $5600 every season as opposed to no prizepool at all
Fuck em. This needs done to the sake of TF2 as a whole. The current state of airfares is NOT sustainable.
Are you talking about the price of plane tickets not being sustainable?
[quote=Screwball][quote=pyxelize]realistically would top invite teams even switch to another league without a prizepool?
i mean i understand esea sucks and all but froyotech and evl have a shot at $5600 every season as opposed to no prizepool at all[/quote]
Fuck em. This needs done to the sake of TF2 as a whole. The current state of airfares is NOT sustainable.[/quote]
Are you talking about the price of plane tickets not being sustainable?
Screwballpyxelizerealistically would top invite teams even switch to another league without a prizepool?
i mean i understand esea sucks and all but froyotech and evl have a shot at $5600 every season as opposed to no prizepool at all
Fuck em
i don't think losing the top 2 teams will help tf2
[quote=Screwball][quote=pyxelize]realistically would top invite teams even switch to another league without a prizepool?
i mean i understand esea sucks and all but froyotech and evl have a shot at $5600 every season as opposed to no prizepool at all[/quote]Fuck em[/quote]
i don't think losing the top 2 teams will help tf2
pyxelizei don't think losing the top 2 teams will help tf2
If they are playing for the money they will leave eventually anyways. If they are hear for the love of the game like the other 99.9999% of the comunity that will never see prize money in TF2 then they are welcome to stay. Old players leave. New ones take their place.
This would not be the first time the top of invite left and it won't be the last.
[quote=pyxelize]
i don't think losing the top 2 teams will help tf2[/quote]
If they are playing for the money they will leave eventually anyways. If they are hear for the love of the game like the other 99.9999% of the comunity that will never see prize money in TF2 then they are welcome to stay. Old players leave. New ones take their place.
This would not be the first time the top of invite left and it won't be the last.
http://www.teamfortress.tv/41665/what-is-the-possible-future-for-high-level-tf2/?page=4#113
Moist_PenguinExpanding into NA is an option but not one we have or plan to seriously consider until ESEA is dead. So we might start considering it soon if these predictions about ESEA turn out to be true. The question is what would an NA league of ETF2L offer over a TFCL or UGC.
http://www.teamfortress.tv/41665/what-is-the-possible-future-for-high-level-tf2/?page=4#113
[quote=Moist_Penguin]Expanding into NA is an option but not one we have or plan to seriously consider until ESEA is dead. So we might start considering it soon if these predictions about ESEA turn out to be true. The question is what would an NA league of ETF2L offer over a TFCL or UGC.[/quote]
Lightbringerhttp://www.teamfortress.tv/41665/what-is-the-possible-future-for-high-level-tf2/?page=4#113
Moist_PenguinExpanding into NA is an option but not one we have or plan to seriously consider until ESEA is dead. So we might start considering it soon if these predictions about ESEA turn out to be true. The question is what would an NA league of ETF2L offer over a TFCL or UGC.
TFCL does not have the name to attract players. More than 1/2 the community doesn't even know TFCL exist.
UGC is just a huge shitshow. I wouldnt trust them with a ultiduo cup let alone the future of this game.
What ETF2L offers is a established league and a relatively painless transition.
[quote=Lightbringer]http://www.teamfortress.tv/41665/what-is-the-possible-future-for-high-level-tf2/?page=4#113
[quote=Moist_Penguin]Expanding into NA is an option but not one we have or plan to seriously consider until ESEA is dead. So we might start considering it soon if these predictions about ESEA turn out to be true. The question is what would an NA league of ETF2L offer over a TFCL or UGC.[/quote][/quote]
TFCL does not have the name to attract players. More than 1/2 the community doesn't even know TFCL exist.
UGC is just a huge shitshow. I wouldnt trust them with a ultiduo cup let alone the future of this game.
What ETF2L offers is a established league and a relatively painless transition.
Didn't we already lose a division and try to ditch esea by switching to another league in season 15? That scenario even had a scandal as the cherry on top and it still didn't work out in the communities favor.
Like I'm sure nobody is "anti-TF2 longevity" or anything but I don't expect positive results from an attempt at a league change again; ones gonna die and the survivor will be smaller than before.
Didn't we already lose a division and try to ditch esea by switching to another league in season 15? That scenario even had a scandal as the cherry on top and it [i]still[/i] didn't work out in the communities favor.
Like I'm sure nobody is "anti-TF2 longevity" or anything but I don't expect positive results from an attempt at a league change again; ones gonna die and the survivor will be smaller than before.
netwrkjrkvipertrust me, i'm for natf2l completely, but why burn our bridge with esea before etf2l even extends an olive branch officially?
what if, by some unknown reason etf2l doesn't create an natf2l and we burn our bridges with esea, then what? call the game dead and call it a day?
TFCL
tfcl is a joke league with sketchy owners and sketchier promises
[quote=netwrkjrk][quote=viper]trust me, i'm for natf2l completely, but why burn our bridge with esea before etf2l even extends an olive branch officially?
what if, by some unknown reason etf2l doesn't create an natf2l and we burn our bridges with esea, then what? call the game dead and call it a day?[/quote]
TFCL[/quote]
tfcl is a joke league with sketchy owners and sketchier promises