TholeI've wanted to start playing ESEA and start playing on a serious team, but I've either not had enough money or time when the open season begins. i think having a free league that is better than ugc would be perfect for lower level players that aren't ready to dedicate all the money and time that's required for playing in ESEA right now.
in a perfect world, ugc would be that league
[quote=Thole]I've wanted to start playing ESEA and start playing on a serious team, but I've either not had enough money or time when the open season begins. i think having a free league that is better than ugc would be perfect for lower level players that aren't ready to dedicate all the money and time that's required for playing in ESEA right now.[/quote]
in a perfect world, ugc would be that league
MR_SLINFor those of you guys who are saying "someone" will step up and run the league, look around. It takes a lot of volunteer man hours to execute whether it's organizing the league, the prize pools, the live match-night support, etc. In order to make a league happen, someone has to decide not to play that season and spend their free time making sure you have an enjoyable experience.
Yeah it's down to there being a decent set of people willing and able to admin really.
ETF2L has a solid tradition of bringing admins through for years now, as has Oz Fortress, things get handed on to trusted apprentices that have come up through the system. I'm not sure who from NA would step into those roles.
You might also find other community leagues have software that hard codes their rules and you wouldn't be able to bring ESEA's setup with you - first to 5 might be a problem.
I'm not sure the ESEA fees have made much sense for the majority of people since they cut lan really, there's just so much less left to aspire to. Either way as you say without that community admin tradition maybe paying however much a month makes sense for these things to be someone else's problem.
[quote=MR_SLIN]For those of you guys who are saying "someone" will step up and run the league, look around. It takes a lot of volunteer man hours to execute whether it's organizing the league, the prize pools, the live match-night support, etc. In order to make a league happen, someone has to decide not to play that season and spend their free time making sure you have an enjoyable experience.[/quote]
Yeah it's down to there being a decent set of people willing and able to admin really.
ETF2L has a solid tradition of bringing admins through for years now, as has Oz Fortress, things get handed on to trusted apprentices that have come up through the system. I'm not sure who from NA would step into those roles.
You might also find other community leagues have software that hard codes their rules and you wouldn't be able to bring ESEA's setup with you - first to 5 might be a problem.
I'm not sure the ESEA fees have made much sense for the majority of people since they cut lan really, there's just so much less left to aspire to. Either way as you say without that community admin tradition maybe paying however much a month makes sense for these things to be someone else's problem.
http://www.teamfortress.tv/14024/etf2l-north-american-division
take 2 lets go boys
[quote=Permzilla]http://www.teamfortress.tv/14024/etf2l-north-american-division
take 2 lets go boys[/quote]
I think permzilla is a timelord
StevieICTF2L-Intercontinental Tf2 League?
Na division, Eu Division, Au Division, Asia division, South American Division, with International Lan finals?
PogChamp
No divisions:
http://imgur.com/a/PxWZB
[quote=Stevie]ICTF2L-Intercontinental Tf2 League?
Na division, Eu Division, Au Division, Asia division, South American Division, with International Lan finals?
PogChamp[/quote]
No divisions:
http://imgur.com/a/PxWZB
[quote=Permzilla]http://www.teamfortress.tv/14024/etf2l-north-american-division
take 2 lets go boys[/quote]
perm as head admin for NATF2L
thesqrtminus1alright, it's june 5th and the promises given in the forum post have yet to be realized.
i'm a leader of a tfcl highlander team, aren't there supposed to be servers allocated for scrims, like sid said in his post? if there are i certainly haven't been notified of any.
From the about page.
"The goal is to eventually provide a truly automated service, which means that we’ll need to have one heck of a server network. Scrims, matches, competitions, beer. You name it, we’ll have a server for you to play on. Eventually. Cause like, building up a large network takes time, ya know?"
Servers are still coming. Was supposed to be up by April but I had to delay it. ETA is fall.
why is the first match on father's day?
Good question. I actually didn't realize it was father's day. I'll likely extend registration a bit as well so more teams have the chance of signing up.
where is the prize money coming from?
I've answered this at least a dozen times already. Currently it's through an investor. In the future it'll be through sponsors and advertisers.
where the hell are schedules?
where's the team matchups?
who the fuck am I even playing on june 18th?
Should go live about five days before first match.
edit: yay my team folded because people a) think that TFCL is a joke and b) are dumb and can't get along with each other. good.
It's not my fault your team died. Though if your team is indeed dead, please unready it so you don't ruin the experience of others. No one wants to get matched against a dead team.
[quote=thesqrtminus1]alright, it's june 5th and the promises given in the forum post have yet to be realized.
i'm a leader of a tfcl highlander team, aren't there supposed to be servers allocated for scrims, like sid said in his post? if there are i certainly haven't been notified of any.[/quote]
From the about page.
"The goal is to eventually provide a truly automated service, which means that we’ll need to have one heck of a server network. Scrims, matches, competitions, beer. You name it, we’ll have a server for you to play on. Eventually. Cause like, building up a large network takes time, ya know?"
Servers are still coming. Was supposed to be up by April but I had to delay it. ETA is fall.
[quote]why is the first match on father's day?[/quote]
Good question. I actually didn't realize it was father's day. I'll likely extend registration a bit as well so more teams have the chance of signing up.
[quote]where is the prize money coming from? [/quote]
I've answered this at least a dozen times already. Currently it's through an investor. In the future it'll be through sponsors and advertisers.
[quote]where the hell are schedules?
where's the team matchups?
who the fuck am I even playing on june 18th?[/quote]
Should go live about five days before first match.
[quote]edit: yay my team folded because people a) think that TFCL is a joke and b) are dumb and can't get along with each other. good.[/quote]
It's not my fault your team died. Though if your team is indeed dead, please unready it so you don't ruin the experience of others. No one wants to get matched against a dead team.
GentlemanJonI'm not sure the ESEA fees have made much sense for the majority of people since they cut lan really, there's just so much less left to aspire to. Either way as you say without that community admin tradition maybe paying however much a month makes sense for these things to be someone else's problem.
Yeah like someone mentioned before, we tried this approach with CEVO, trying to pay them to do the same job that ESEA was doing but better. It was cheaper and better adapted to the community's needs since it cut out Pug/Scrim servers, forums, and other crap we didn't need while working directly with the community to innovate and iterate. However, we've kind of made our bed at this point by picking ESEA and I'm not sure where else to go.
To the point others are making about joining UGC, it should be obvious that UGC has always been there. Anyone who currently plays in ESEA can leave at any time and go play UGC. That said, making a "better" version with different admins isn't really a compelling reason to switch -- we've already seen this issue with TF2Stadium trying to establish itself over TF2Center. So I actually think UGC does its job just fine, even if there are cheaters and it isn't run perfectly, it still serves its purpose just fine. Same can be said about the ESEA to CEVO/NATF2L/TFCL switch -- if it's not providing insanely more value, it probably won't work.
To the point others are saying that "TF2 is a dead game, stop trying to grow it", that's simply shifting the burden to others instead of yourselves. If you're fine with the game being dead, that's cool, just stop shooting down other people who are actually trying. It's not affecting you that they're trying, so stop putting them down.
If you actually want the game to grow, take it upon yourselves to find ways to grow the scene instead of waiting for the guy next to you to do it. If you actually want to see this game succeed, look for solutions rather than problems. Sure maybe you don't like what Sidular or Sigafoo or the UGC team is doing with their respective leagues, but I actually give them credit for giving it an honest effort when many other people wouldn't dare try because there's no money in it or they don't feel like doing it. Calling the game dead and shitting on everyone else while not taking action is just lazy.
[quote=GentlemanJon]I'm not sure the ESEA fees have made much sense for the majority of people since they cut lan really, there's just so much less left to aspire to. Either way as you say without that community admin tradition maybe paying however much a month makes sense for these things to be someone else's problem.[/quote]
Yeah like someone mentioned before, we tried this approach with CEVO, trying to pay them to do the same job that ESEA was doing but better. It was cheaper and better adapted to the community's needs since it cut out Pug/Scrim servers, forums, and other crap we didn't need while working directly with the community to innovate and iterate. However, we've kind of made our bed at this point by picking ESEA and I'm not sure where else to go.
To the point others are making about joining UGC, it should be obvious that UGC has always been there. Anyone who currently plays in ESEA can leave at any time and go play UGC. That said, making a "better" version with different admins isn't really a compelling reason to switch -- we've already seen this issue with TF2Stadium trying to establish itself over TF2Center. So I actually think UGC does its job just fine, even if there are cheaters and it isn't run perfectly, it still serves its purpose just fine. Same can be said about the ESEA to CEVO/NATF2L/TFCL switch -- if it's not providing insanely more value, it probably won't work.
To the point others are saying that "TF2 is a dead game, stop trying to grow it", that's simply shifting the burden to others instead of yourselves. If you're fine with the game being dead, that's cool, just stop shooting down other people who are actually trying. It's not affecting you that they're trying, so stop putting them down.
If you actually want the game to grow, take it upon yourselves to find ways to grow the scene instead of waiting for the guy next to you to do it. If you actually want to see this game succeed, look for solutions rather than problems. Sure maybe you don't like what Sidular or Sigafoo or the UGC team is doing with their respective leagues, but I actually give them credit for giving it an honest effort when many other people wouldn't dare try because there's no money in it or they don't feel like doing it. Calling the game dead and shitting on everyone else while not taking action is just lazy.
@screwball
I see your point about ESEA having problems since it's only down to two divisions, pitting high level players against low level players. I also see your point about us paying for services from ESEA that we no longer need such as TF2 scrim servers, pug servers, forums, and a kind of non-existent anti-cheat that we're not confident is actively being developed.
Just brainstorming here as I think it is an interesting discussion
If you truly think prize pools are not necessary to motivate players to continue playing this game, why not put more effort into developing UGC? Why not work with the UGC leadership to turn it into the league that you want? The reason I think UGC could be a prime candidate is because they already have infrastructure and an established NA player base. If you can get high level TF2 teams to play in UGC, you could probably get the rest of the NA scene to switch over too. I think the difficult part of getting the high level TF2 teams to switch to any F2P league is the lack of incentives, but I'd be interested in seeing what you think would motivate these teams if you feel prize pools don't matter.
If UGC is not a good option, why not work with ETF2L or other established brand to bring an F2P league to TF2? Would it be too much work with no payoff? Would you be able to recruit a large enough team to run this league? What is required to get it off the ground?
I'd encourage you to pursue your goals if you feel it truly is the best thing for TF2.
@screwball
I see your point about ESEA having problems since it's only down to two divisions, pitting high level players against low level players. I also see your point about us paying for services from ESEA that we no longer need such as TF2 scrim servers, pug servers, forums, and a kind of non-existent anti-cheat that we're not confident is actively being developed.
[b]Just brainstorming here as I think it is an interesting discussion[/b]
If you truly think prize pools are not necessary to motivate players to continue playing this game, why not put more effort into developing UGC? Why not work with the UGC leadership to turn it into the league that you want? The reason I think UGC could be a prime candidate is because they already have infrastructure and an established NA player base. If you can get high level TF2 teams to play in UGC, you could probably get the rest of the NA scene to switch over too. I think the difficult part of getting the high level TF2 teams to switch to any F2P league is the lack of incentives, but I'd be interested in seeing what you think would motivate these teams if you feel prize pools don't matter.
If UGC is not a good option, why not work with ETF2L or other established brand to bring an F2P league to TF2? Would it be too much work with no payoff? Would you be able to recruit a large enough team to run this league? What is required to get it off the ground?
I'd encourage you to pursue your goals if you feel it truly is the best thing for TF2.
mr popo killed tf2 not much to be said.
mr popo killed tf2 not much to be said.
Where does this idea that people who would stop playing without prize pools don't love the game? If there were no prizes a shitton of top teams would fold, and it doesn't mean the people on those teams don't enjoy the game, it just means that committing every single weeknight to videogames is a big committment, especially for people with jobs or in college. You would still see a bunch of the top level players around in pugs but as far as making the time to play in a league they just wouldn't do it. you would lose like half of current invite, most of them from evl froyo and botmode's team.
so if raping the shit out of all current high skilled competition is worth a free league that could be mismanaged in any number of ways is worth it to u go ahead i guess
Where does this idea that people who would stop playing without prize pools don't love the game? If there were no prizes a shitton of top teams would fold, and it doesn't mean the people on those teams don't enjoy the game, it just means that committing every single weeknight to videogames is a big committment, especially for people with jobs or in college. You would still see a bunch of the top level players around in pugs but as far as making the time to play in a league they just wouldn't do it. you would lose like half of current invite, most of them from evl froyo and botmode's team.
so if raping the shit out of all current high skilled competition is worth a free league that could be mismanaged in any number of ways is worth it to u go ahead i guess
saamWhere does this idea that people who would stop playing without prize pools don't love the game? If there were no prizes a shitton of top teams would fold, and it doesn't mean the people on those teams don't enjoy the game, it just means that committing every single weeknight to videogames is a big committment, especially for people with jobs or in college. You would still see a bunch of the top level players around in pugs but as far as making the time to play in a league they just wouldn't do it. you would lose like half of current invite, most of them from evl froyo and botmode's team.
so if raping the shit out of all current high skilled competition is worth a free league that could be mismanaged in any number of ways is worth it to u go ahead i guess
How does etf2l do it then? they manage to play with barely any prize pool and still get top competition. Also I know it sounds cruel, but getting rid of a few players to preserve the game is for the better imo, even if it's the top of the league leaving (not saying this is what the case will be if we change leagues somehow)
[quote=saam]Where does this idea that people who would stop playing without prize pools don't love the game? If there were no prizes a shitton of top teams would fold, and it doesn't mean the people on those teams don't enjoy the game, it just means that committing every single weeknight to videogames is a big committment, especially for people with jobs or in college. You would still see a bunch of the top level players around in pugs but as far as making the time to play in a league they just wouldn't do it. you would lose like half of current invite, most of them from evl froyo and botmode's team.
so if raping the shit out of all current high skilled competition is worth a free league that could be mismanaged in any number of ways is worth it to u go ahead i guess[/quote]
How does etf2l do it then? they manage to play with barely any prize pool and still get top competition. Also I know it sounds cruel, but getting rid of a few players to preserve the game is for the better imo, even if it's the top of the league leaving (not saying this is what the case will be if we change leagues somehow)
Starry_NebulaeHow does etf2l do it then? they manage to play with barely any prize pool and still get top competition. Also I know it sounds cruel, but getting rid of a few players to preserve the game is for the better imo, even if it's the top of the league leaving (not saying this is what the case will be if we change leagues somehow)
this is the notion that 90% of the people in this thread don't understand; europe only ever had one league, while na has multiple and we would also be switching leagues. why it is not even a comparison should not need an explanation.
[quote=Starry_Nebulae]
How does etf2l do it then? they manage to play with barely any prize pool and still get top competition. Also I know it sounds cruel, but getting rid of a few players to preserve the game is for the better imo, even if it's the top of the league leaving (not saying this is what the case will be if we change leagues somehow)[/quote]
this is the notion that 90% of the people in this thread don't understand; europe only ever had one league, while na has multiple and we would also be [b]switching[/b] leagues. why it is not even a comparison should not need an explanation.
corsaStarry_NebulaeHow does etf2l do it then? they manage to play with barely any prize pool and still get top competition. Also I know it sounds cruel, but getting rid of a few players to preserve the game is for the better imo, even if it's the top of the league leaving (not saying this is what the case will be if we change leagues somehow)
this is the notion that 90% of the people in this thread don't understand; europe only ever had one league, while na has multiple and we would also be switching leagues.
Ok wow I never knew that Europe only had one league ever, but still the only reasons I would see no one switch is cause
1. the fee is fine/are willing to pay it every season for the experience
2. the league is stable
soon both those reasons will be gone the way this is going, also more people will play if it's free just cause of availability for the public
[quote=corsa][quote=Starry_Nebulae]
How does etf2l do it then? they manage to play with barely any prize pool and still get top competition. Also I know it sounds cruel, but getting rid of a few players to preserve the game is for the better imo, even if it's the top of the league leaving (not saying this is what the case will be if we change leagues somehow)[/quote]
this is the notion that 90% of the people in this thread don't understand; europe only ever had one league, while na has multiple and we would also be [b]switching[/b] leagues.[/quote]
Ok wow I never knew that Europe only had one league ever, but still the only reasons I would see no one switch is cause
1. the fee is fine/are willing to pay it every season for the experience
2. the league is stable
soon both those reasons will be gone the way this is going, also more people will play if it's free just cause of availability for the public
Starry_NebulaeHow does etf2l do it then? they manage to play with barely any prize pool and still get top competition.
lowpander made playoffs.
[quote=Starry_Nebulae]
How does etf2l do it then? they manage to play with barely any prize pool and still get top competition.[/quote]
lowpander made playoffs.
saamStarry_NebulaeHow does etf2l do it then? they manage to play with barely any prize pool and still get top competition.
lowpander made playoffs.
to be fair it was cause a team folded that made them get in, also we can have our division fight them, the only way possivle is if lowpander went to rewind and see of fair they do against NA, Insomnia they will only face either the top two or the best that NA has to offer, maybe they could be top 5 in NA somehow if they played here how can we tell?
[quote=saam][quote=Starry_Nebulae]
How does etf2l do it then? they manage to play with barely any prize pool and still get top competition.[/quote]
lowpander made playoffs.[/quote]
to be fair it was cause a team folded that made them get in, also we can have our division fight them, the only way possivle is if lowpander went to rewind and see of fair they do against NA, Insomnia they will only face either the top two or the best that NA has to offer, maybe they could be top 5 in NA somehow if they played here how can we tell?
my team will go to insomnia
Show Content
if there is ever any fucking info
and shit on them.
my team will go to insomnia
[spoiler]if there is ever any fucking info[/spoiler]
and shit on them.
Starry I think you're missing the point -- if we switched off of ESEA to some other F2P league, a ton of teams would die for pretty much no benefit. Would TF2 go on? Sure. But you're not clearly outlining the benefits of this new league that make it so much superior to ESEA.
ESEA:
- They have prize pools
- They have admins on duty and respond to support tickets within a timely manner
- They have a structure and an anti-cheat system in place
- It costs money to play
- They don't care about growing the TF2 league or marketing it.
This new F2P league:
- They have no prize pools
- They have admins on duty and respond to support tickets within a timely manner... maybe
- They have a structure and an anti-cheat system in place... hopefully
- It costs no money to play
- They care about growing the TF2 league and marketing it.
If the only difference between these two leagues is paying or not paying, playing for money or not playing for money, then just play UGC. Is marketing helpful? Sure but who is going to do it?
What's the point in killing ESEA if everyone is fine paying money. Is ESEA siphoning off that money for their own benefit? Probably, although some invite players have said (or maybe spread rumors) that ESEA operates TF2 at a loss. Is it worth the switch and potentially hurting the NA game? Probably not.
Give some concrete, real reasons as to what this new league would do that is simply not possible with ESEA. It might sound like I'm against this switch but I actually think it's an amazing idea if someone actually cares enough to execute and see it through to the finish line.
Starry I think you're missing the point -- if we switched off of ESEA to some other F2P league, a ton of teams would die for pretty much no benefit. Would TF2 go on? Sure. But you're not clearly outlining the benefits of this new league that make it so much superior to ESEA.
ESEA:
[list]
[*] They have prize pools
[*] They have admins on duty and respond to support tickets within a timely manner
[*] They have a structure and an anti-cheat system in place
[*] It costs money to play
[*] They don't care about growing the TF2 league or marketing it.
[/list]
This new F2P league:
[list]
[*] They have no prize pools
[*] They have admins on duty and respond to support tickets within a timely manner... maybe
[*] They have a structure and an anti-cheat system in place... hopefully
[*] It costs no money to play
[*] They care about growing the TF2 league and marketing it.
[/list]
If the only difference between these two leagues is paying or not paying, playing for money or not playing for money, then just play UGC. Is marketing helpful? Sure but who is going to do it?
What's the point in killing ESEA if everyone is fine paying money. Is ESEA siphoning off that money for their own benefit? Probably, although some invite players have said (or maybe spread rumors) that ESEA operates TF2 at a loss. Is it worth the switch and potentially hurting the NA game? Probably not.
Give some concrete, real reasons as to what this new league would do that is simply not possible with ESEA. It might sound like I'm against this switch but I actually think it's an amazing idea if someone actually cares enough to execute and see it through to the finish line.
MR_SLINsome invite players have said (or maybe spread rumors) that ESEA operates TF2 at a loss.
I'm really interested in this. What operating costs do they have for TF2? Assuming they're not actively developing their version of anticheat for TF2, all I can see is server upkeep and paying tri (at least I think tri gets paid?) Could all the league fees really be offset by just those two?
[quote=MR_SLIN]some invite players have said (or maybe spread rumors) that ESEA operates TF2 at a loss.[/quote]
I'm really interested in this. What operating costs do they have for TF2? Assuming they're not actively developing their version of anticheat for TF2, all I can see is server upkeep and paying tri (at least I think tri gets paid?) Could all the league fees really be offset by just those two?
they also pay out 20k in prizes that MIGHT have something to do with it
basically esea breaking even is dependant of in tri makes more than like 3-5k iirc
they also pay out 20k in prizes that MIGHT have something to do with it
basically esea breaking even is dependant of in tri makes more than like 3-5k iirc
MR_SLINGive some concrete, real reasons as to what this new league would do that is simply not possible with ESEA. It might sound like I'm against this switch but I actually think it's an amazing idea if someone actually cares enough to execute and see it through to the finish line.
My possibilities would be possibly a very small prize pool(total of 500$? maybe less), maybe some keys, games, etc. try to make a league with more than just 3 (i think 4 will do I think 5 is too much) division, PUNISH SANDBAGGERS/PREVENT THEM harshly. And have better admins (that last one is hard of course but UGC has poor admins
The reason UGC is flopping in 6s (and in general) is cause it has a horrid maplist, poor match management, sandbaggers are rampant, no real schedule. Also UGC is mainly known/advertises as a HL website somewhat. So it doesn't dedicate to 6s much at all.
They make the top badges hard to achieve as hard as the esea prize (only top 3 teams in each div get a special badge. the rest just earn a participant badge, no playoff badge, also they give the badge to anyone that just joins the league so participant badges are worthless basically. only give participant badges to players that players for at least 85% of the season or something.)
The "new" league" could have these types of badges
- Top four team badges, Playoff team badges, Participant badges (must have played 10 out of 12 games, etc)
- Best demo, medic, scout, soldier, MVP of the season (earned by being voted as best from the playoff players)
- Admin, worker badges that show you helped/run the league in anyway
even if you can't have these badges made just a website recognition would really help.
[quote=MR_SLIN]Give some concrete, real reasons as to what this new league would do that is simply not possible with ESEA. It might sound like I'm against this switch but I actually think it's an amazing idea if someone actually cares enough to execute and see it through to the finish line.[/quote]
My possibilities would be possibly a very small prize pool(total of 500$? maybe less), maybe some keys, games, etc. try to make a league with more than just 3 (i think 4 will do I think 5 is too much) division, PUNISH SANDBAGGERS/PREVENT THEM harshly. And have better admins (that last one is hard of course but UGC has poor admins
The reason UGC is flopping in 6s (and in general) is cause it has a horrid maplist, poor match management, sandbaggers are rampant, no real schedule. Also UGC is mainly known/advertises as a HL website somewhat. So it doesn't dedicate to 6s much at all.
They make the top badges hard to achieve as hard as the esea prize (only top 3 teams in each div get a special badge. the rest just earn a participant badge, no playoff badge, also they give the badge to anyone that just joins the league so participant badges are worthless basically. only give participant badges to players that players for at least 85% of the season or something.)
The "new" league" could have these types of badges
[list]
[*] Top four team badges, Playoff team badges, Participant badges (must have played 10 out of 12 games, etc)
[*] Best demo, medic, scout, soldier, MVP of the season (earned by being voted as best from the playoff players)
[*] Admin, worker badges that show you helped/run the league in anyway
[/list]
even if you can't have these badges made just a website recognition would really help.
MR_SLINESEA:
That only sandbaggers and B4nny ever see
[*] They have admins on duty and respond to support tickets within a timely manner
worse than ETF2L
[*] They have a structure and an anti-cheat system in place
LOL NO
[*] It costs money to play
To much money for what we get.
[*] They don't care about growing the TF2 league or marketing it.
You are completely correct on this one.
This new F2P league:
Doesn't necessarily need to be F2P. Just not be so expensive to play as to encourage rampant sandbagging.
[*] They have no prize pools
Not necessarily.
[*] They have admins on duty and respond to support tickets within a timely manner... maybe
So no worse than what we currently have?
[*] They have a structure and an anti-cheat system in place... hopefully
cant be worse than ESEA's anticheat
[*] It costs no money to play
Not necessarily but definitely less.
[*] They care about growing the TF2 league and marketing it.
yes
If the only difference between these two leagues is paying or not paying, playing for money or not playing for money, then just play UGC. Is marketing helpful? Sure but who is going to do it?.
We already have 2 leagues that are more than willing to take the reigns (TFCL/ETF2L). UGC has it's own list of issues that i am certain have been mentioned a thousand times before. I wouldnt trust UGC with a ultiduo cup.
[quote=MR_SLIN]
ESEA:
[list]
[*] They have prize pools[/quote]
That only sandbaggers and B4nny ever see
[quote] [*] They have admins on duty and respond to support tickets within a timely manner[/quote]
worse than ETF2L
[quote] [*] They have a structure and an anti-cheat system in place[/quote]
LOL NO
[quote] [*] It costs money to play[/quote]
To much money for what we get.
[quote] [*] They don't care about growing the TF2 league or marketing it.[/quote]
You are completely correct on this one.
[quote] This new F2P league:
[list][/quote]
Doesn't necessarily need to be F2P. Just not be so expensive to play as to encourage rampant sandbagging.
[quote] [*] They have no prize pools[/quote]
Not necessarily.
[quote] [*] They have admins on duty and respond to support tickets within a timely manner... maybe[/quote]
So no worse than what we currently have?
[quote] [*] They have a structure and an anti-cheat system in place... hopefully[/quote]
cant be worse than ESEA's anticheat
[quote] [*] It costs no money to play[/quote]
Not necessarily but definitely less.
[quote] [*] They care about growing the TF2 league and marketing it.[/quote]
yes
[quote] If the only difference between these two leagues is paying or not paying, playing for money or not playing for money, then just play UGC. Is marketing helpful? Sure but who is going to do it?.[/quote]
We already have 2 leagues that are more than willing to take the reigns (TFCL/ETF2L). UGC has it's own list of issues that i am certain have been mentioned a thousand times before. I wouldnt trust UGC with a ultiduo cup.
Screwballflinging shit at walls
ape
[quote=Screwball]flinging shit at walls[/quote]
ape
How is the person saying that ESEA has an anti-cheat for tf2 not the one getting downfragged?
How is the person saying that ESEA has an anti-cheat for tf2 not the one getting downfragged?
Yeah so screwball my point is this:
1) The difference between these two leagues is marginal at best. There is obviously a switching cost involved here -- is there really that much to gain compared to how much we stand to lose?
2) The prize pool attracts the top talent, which in turn attracts the rest of the talent. Everyone knows B4nny only wants to play for money, and everyone else in Invite just wants to play against B4nny (insert joke about not liking playing against B4nny here). Sandbaggers are attracted to the Open prizepool, and everyone else in Open wants to play against the top teams in the division. The reason nobody plays in UGC is because winning UGC has no prestige -- everyone knows that getting 1st place in UGC Plat means nothing since the top teams are not there, and the same problem happens when achieving rank 18 in comp MM.
So sure, switching to a league where the current top talent isn't interested in playing (basically ditching the top end of TF2) is one way to deal with the problem. You can switch leagues and establish a new top-end of the scene. However, I think the main issue is that you're missing out on attracting users who do want these kinds of incentives, so why not search for a solution that can keep them around?
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If you actually cost out the current ESEA fees (keep in mind I actually don't know the real dollar values) you'll get something like this:
49 Open teams * 6 players * $30 ($21 premium three months and $9 league fee) per player = $8,820
9 Invite teams * 6 players * $80 (Invite fee) per player = $4,320
Total fees collected: $13,140
Last season's prize pool (67 teams) = $19,000
This season's prize pool (58 teams) = idk
Do we think we can beat this? How much money do you think ESEA is really siphoning off?
Yeah so screwball my point is this:
1) The difference between these two leagues is marginal at best. There is obviously a switching cost involved here -- is there really that much to gain compared to how much we stand to lose?
2) The prize pool attracts the top talent, which in turn attracts the rest of the talent. Everyone knows B4nny only wants to play for money, and everyone else in Invite just wants to play against B4nny (insert joke about not liking playing against B4nny here). Sandbaggers are attracted to the Open prizepool, and everyone else in Open wants to play against the top teams in the division. The reason nobody plays in UGC is because winning UGC has no prestige -- everyone knows that getting 1st place in UGC Plat means nothing since the top teams are not there, and the same problem happens when achieving rank 18 in comp MM.
So sure, switching to a league where the current top talent isn't interested in playing (basically ditching the top end of TF2) is one way to deal with the problem. You can switch leagues and establish a new top-end of the scene. However, I think the main issue is that you're missing out on attracting users who do want these kinds of incentives, so why not search for a solution that can keep them around?
====
If you actually cost out the current ESEA fees (keep in mind I actually don't know the real dollar values) you'll get something like this:
49 Open teams * 6 players * $30 ($21 premium three months and $9 league fee) per player = $8,820
9 Invite teams * 6 players * $80 (Invite fee) per player = $4,320
Total fees collected: $13,140
Last season's prize pool (67 teams) = $19,000
This season's prize pool (58 teams) = idk
Do we think we can beat this? How much money do you think ESEA is really siphoning off?
yA ok.
Sigafoo already made a new league. If you sixtards would actually join it instead of clinging to your strict and dying meta, maybe the game would have a chance.
yA ok.
Sigafoo already made a new league. If you sixtards would actually join it instead of clinging to your strict and dying meta, maybe the game would have a chance.
saamWhere does this idea that people who would stop playing without prize pools don't love the game? If there were no prizes a shitton of top teams would fold, and it doesn't mean the people on those teams don't enjoy the game, it just means that committing every single weeknight to videogames is a big committment, especially for people with jobs or in college. You would still see a bunch of the top level players around in pugs but as far as making the time to play in a league they just wouldn't do it. you would lose like half of current invite, most of them from evl froyo and botmode's team.
so if raping the shit out of all current high skilled competition is worth a free league that could be mismanaged in any number of ways is worth it to u go ahead i guess
How much do we really value high level tf2? I mean there is really no point in watching invite it's the same people winning over and over again. The last domestic match worth watching was the showstopper miracle over a year ago lol. What is ultra high level tf2 to the rest of the community? There will never be another b4nny, clockwork, or platinum team to restore balance to invite. Do we keep up the classic tf2 aristocracy so that the game's final days are an opportunity for the same players to make a little bit of cash or move/create a league that can perpetuate the livelihood of tf2 a little longer for the rest of the community? The top 5% of the competitive playerbase should stop being so entitled.
[quote=saam]Where does this idea that people who would stop playing without prize pools don't love the game? If there were no prizes a shitton of top teams would fold, and it doesn't mean the people on those teams don't enjoy the game, it just means that committing every single weeknight to videogames is a big committment, especially for people with jobs or in college. You would still see a bunch of the top level players around in pugs but as far as making the time to play in a league they just wouldn't do it. you would lose like half of current invite, most of them from evl froyo and botmode's team.
so if raping the shit out of all current high skilled competition is worth a free league that could be mismanaged in any number of ways is worth it to u go ahead i guess[/quote]
How much do we really value high level tf2? I mean there is really no point in watching invite it's the same people winning over and over again. The last [b]domestic[/b] match worth watching was the showstopper miracle over a year ago lol. What is ultra high level tf2 to the rest of the community? There will never be another b4nny, clockwork, or platinum team to restore balance to invite. Do we keep up the classic tf2 aristocracy so that the game's final days are an opportunity for the same players to make a little bit of cash or move/create a league that can perpetuate the livelihood of tf2 a little longer for the rest of the community? The top 5% of the competitive playerbase should stop being so entitled.
#118 the last invite grand final literally went for about 6 hours and finished with a map score of 3-3, so I'd say that was a pretty decent ESEA match to watch. And if you are keeping up with the current invite teams, you would know this season will probably be just as close.
#118 the last invite grand final literally went for about 6 hours and finished with a map score of 3-3, so I'd say that was a pretty decent ESEA match to watch. And if you are keeping up with the current invite teams, you would know this season will probably be just as close.
Starry_NebulaeOk wow I never knew that Europe only had one league ever...
EU has had several leagues (including ESEA), they all fell to ETF2L for the main reason that ETF2L doesn't have a buggy shit client that fucks with your PC (sometimes in merely annoying ways, sometimes in illegal ways) and it's free. There have been various schisms, unlocks arguments, etc and they've spread across competing leagues. ETF2L's unchallenged dominance is a relatively recent development.
ETF2L was also started very, very quickly after TF2 came out, founded by TFC players. They weren't late to market, they were first to market ahead of commercial competition.
Money has never been able to dislodge it permanently. There was some momentum behind the ESEA expansion but... they mined bitcoins and that was that.
[quote=Starry_Nebulae]Ok wow I never knew that Europe only had one league ever... [/quote]
EU has had several leagues (including ESEA), they all fell to ETF2L for the main reason that ETF2L doesn't have a buggy shit client that fucks with your PC (sometimes in merely annoying ways, sometimes in illegal ways) and it's free. There have been various schisms, unlocks arguments, etc and they've spread across competing leagues. ETF2L's unchallenged dominance is a relatively recent development.
ETF2L was also started very, very quickly after TF2 came out, founded by TFC players. They weren't late to market, they were first to market ahead of commercial competition.
Money has never been able to dislodge it permanently. There was some momentum behind the ESEA expansion but... they mined bitcoins and that was that.