low level games tend to be chaotic feeding, but having less stalematey games casted would probably help grow the player base, especially lans which tend to get a lot more exposure then normal matches

Make badlands last fast to cap (again)

That doesnt solve the issue. Longer spawn times when you are attacking last is a better solution in that case so its easier to push out from last. I'm thinking about all maps thoigh so not only badlands

Prem games tend to be alot more stalematey than high games for instance

This is a feature of 5cp game mode and current maps. It's a part of the game at this point. Be careful wishing for game changes, look at what id did to quake duels for example!

You see it from the half empty glass perspective. One could say that because lowpander is so good they managed to hold the best EU team at bay for a full map. Or that seven is so good that even when they beef their push they still manage to keep control.

Outside of that unlocks and offclasses are a way to break stalemates. There are a ton of options, some considered standard (sniper/spy), some more marginal (banners, quickiebomb, etc). In order to break stalemates one team has to properly train stalemate breaking. But in most scrims players either stick to proven and expected tactics (sacks/sniper/spy) or push without any kind of advantage and yolo it to avoid the "boredom" of stalemates. So when a team actually runs into a situation where it HAS to break a stalemate (say in officials running after the score) it is lost.

Also if you really do not want stalemates you should push for more koth maps in the map rotation.

well I think it's some part 5cp. the format encourages playing the clock but there is no good alternative format. i think another part of it is teams afraid to take risks and copying 7, even though they may play better if they play aggressively. everyone (especially in officials) is terrified of making mistakes, which ironically leads to them losing because you don't play stalematey style in scrims or it's not your 'optimal' playstyle

nerf scattergun's knockback so soldiers can actually jump in and make space

Im definately pro more koth maps. The 7 lowpandee game was an example. Generally tf2 overall has grown way more stalematey the last 2 years or so.

I guess you are right that people dont practise stalemate breaking properly.

Sure there was stalemates in 2014 but not as much as now. Just makes me wonder if thats something that people has just adapted to and decided is the way to play tf2 or if it is because of the medic movespeed buff, crossbow buff?

In my opinion as scout it is not fun with stalemates unless you offclass. And its definately very boring to watch

You could mitigate some of the pain of long stalemates by reducing the round timer. While it would produce more urgency to push on advantages, it simultaneously eases the ability to turtle so it's tricky. You'd definitely have more round resets, which means more midfights, which might be worth it compared to how things are now tbh. I would love for Valve to add that as an option so we could experiment with it. In my eyes, the only way to currently truly eliminate stalemates is to run KOTH maps only, though they are shallower tactically than 5CP unfortunately.

Maybe a 50% knockback nerf for hit scan weapons could be intresting. Very drastic change though

I agree fully on this. Allthough it could make teams not push out of last to reset into another midfight it would be very intresting to experiment on different roundtimers. Isnt there a command like mp_roundtime? In that case it could be tested in a 1 night cup or something

I totally agree, also its somewhat in peoples mind that you have to play like that these days

make all classes better at attacking than defending

currently it's the reverse so there's no incentive to push because you're basically making it harder for yourself if you're the one to engage

granted it's easier said than done but that should be valve's goal when balancing

Just ban the crossbow and you can finally push off damage again because the medics cant just heal everyone to full health in a matter of seconds.

This is actually a big thing, good damage in chokes doesnt really matter anymore becausw of the crossbow. But valves change might fix that. The crossbow will have crit heals and heal less (from my understanding) if someone took damage recently

Edit: My bad, healing isnt being changed, only ubercharge building

Edit2: reducing fire/reload and draw speed could be an intresting change. Or just nerf the healing of the crossbow.

The game slowing down at times isnt 100% a negative thing imo. I like to think that it makes it easier for newer spectators to understand whats going on and how the maps are layed out in terms of flanks, heals etc. It also gives casters some time to go into more depth and analyze, teams get some time to breathe and get creative. The game slowing down for a minute or two isnt much of a problem, it's those ridiculous 10 minute stalemates that need to be tackled IMO.

That is the only possible solution if you try to find a middle ground. Personally, I wouldn't want the crossbow banned because it makes medic more fun to play but at the same time it just forces everyone to push off picks and those are extremely difficult to get in stalemates.

I would probably make the crossbow heal over time, similar to the medigun, but way slower. I think having an instant health boost is a bad idea, the current amount is too overpowered and nerfing it would make it underpowered.

You're wrong. Nobody wants to watch stalemates because nothing happens in it. Nobody wants to listen to analysis. People want to see constant action and plays. Sure, dedicated competitive players may appreciate casters analyzing certain strats but the neutral viewer does not care. I can remember the Comfortably Spanked vs. Crowns match @ DHS. It was extremely fast paced and honestly I never had more fun watching TF2. If I remember correctly, the match was hyped by the casual community aswell.

Playoff games have been like this for as long as I can remember. Teams play much more conservatively when there is something on the line. Alternative game modes have inevitability built in but they don't have the 6s focused map pool.

Casters have a lot of options available to them when a game is slow paced, but making their boredom the topic of the cast shouldn't be one of them.

Teams incessantly defending in order to make the game as boring and uneventful as possible hasn't stopped soccer becoming the world's most popular sport. Competitive TF2 has other problems.

Roundtimer suggestion is something I been on about for years and amend spawn times on 5cp maps by like even 2 seconds slower spawns for the attackers will make life easier. But this is what the game is now, we tried different aggressive strats since we made Prem amd they aren't working versus the best teams so slowing the game down is the only way unless you find a way to be massively well co-ordinated which the level of co--ordination needed probably requires us putting more effort into practising than we do at present.

I would really like this to happen, just in the next preseason cup or in pugchamp for a week/weekend

So you get hit by an arrow and then have a certain amount of health regen for a certain amount of time? Interesting.

There could be a difference in communities between TF2-watchers and SC2-watchers, but when you look at the most stalematey games of all time in SC2 (like FireCake vs MaNa [4 hours] or Soulkey vs Reality [regame]), they were some of the best games for retaining viewers.

Of course, when all games are 4 hour snoozefests, people stop watching, so the key is to have variation. Having one team that plays defensively is positive for the viewer experience, because it differentiates the teams. Having one map that is more defensive is also positive, because it differentiates the maps.

Personally, I'd say one of the biggest reasons that stalemates in TF2 are boring to watch is that the casters are not prepared for them (not blaming them, btw). A stalemate is a perfect time to go over teams' histories, previous games against each other, current form, discuss what players have been standing out during the game, how you believe the game will end, etc.

For the record I dont mind teams slowinh down and like a 2-3 minute stalemate but when a game is super stalematey its not fun to play or watch. Creds to hildreth for trying aggro strats. I think the crossbow should still be instant but the ammount be reduced. Maybe a cool idea would be that 50% of the crossbow heals is instant and 50% heals over time?

I mean nobody likes to play or watch a 8 minute stalemate then 1 push then another 8 min stalemate. Its just not fun.

Look at i49 grand finals on badlands. That map was soo intense and action left and right. Or tcm vs iM on process at i49. Those types of games are so fun to watch and also soo much fun to play. Sadly the issues with the crossbow/roundtimer or whatever it is promotes teams to play slow and stalematey and try to sac/ get sniper or spy picks over and over until it works.

Pushing of damage is something I really miss in tf2. It makes the game fast paced and intresting imo

Either that, or healing that scales down with increasing uber percentage, so you can still have a lot of impact in post-uber team fights and mids but you are unable to slow down the game in stalemates because the crossbow would practically be useless while having uber.

It doesn't make sense to compare two completely different things. Football is played because it is easy to get into, it is watched because it creates a sense of togetherness. If a team slows the game down and makes the match unwatchable, people distract themselves by talking to the people they are watching with or by chanting in the stadium/creating atmosphere. This doesn't exist in TF2. You're right though, theres more problems than just stalemates. I played this game for 8 years, however for 6 years I did not realize there is a competitive scene. There is no exposure, the majority of the community probably doesn't know we exist.

so we cant fix one problem because there are other problems too? just because problem 2 is bigger, doesn't make problem 1 smaller

Make stalemating harder to successfully pull off by banning unlocks and classes that make it easy, such as engi and heavy.

remove or fix the buggy train tracks on bad lands

Make the map tilt depending on who holds which point, so you have the automatic high ground when the other team holds last

Imho the problem during 7 vs loupounder match was the mix of stalemate + a long pause due to Hildreth's timeout. Stalemates can be fun to watch if casters were to know what to do during them. Instead of focusing on each team's tactics to break the stalemate and spectating offclasses and teams' compositions they just got bored at some point and started complaining about the game.
At some point during the pause, casters started talking about possible changes to cp_badlands. I liked that, I immediately started listening to them and then discussed these changes with others who were watching the stream, too.

Casters can make it intresting while watching but stalemates will still be boring from a players perspective. If there is too many stalemates not even casters can make it intresting in my opinion