MikeMatI 100% agree that this scene can only support 1 ladder/cup league (if that), but imo ESL is the bigger name with more pull in esports so it might be better for the scene to put our support there. Worst case scenario it fails, ESL leaves, and were back where we are now.
Sorry but what support? Like real talk, our community does more then almost any other gaming community when it comes to self support, but when it actually comes to action on bigger things we are absolutely terrible for it. Ill give some examples;
Razor arena. Literally free $$ and yet it died off because no one actually cared
TF2Center: People non stop bitching about how bad it is, an alternative is made, no one actually changes because "reasons"
Newbie mixes: Its not as bad anymore but for the longest time we had issues actually getting people to help out beyond them saying "its great for the game and really should be a thing"
FaceIt: More literal free $$ to pug, yet again no one actually play it.
Pugchamp: People literally never stop bitching about all the issues it has, and how bad it is, etc. etc. and yet Faceit is still totally dead?
Like, sorry, but as a community, (outside of a handful of people) all we really do when it comes to big things is say "yeah this is a great thing and we need it" only to totally ignore it when the time actually comes to actually do something about it. Hell even really shitty things like Tf2Center never got moved on, and with all of the players that bitch you would think that PugChamp should be burned at the stake, yet no one actually changes on any of it.
[quote=MikeMat]
I 100% agree that this scene can only support 1 ladder/cup league (if that), but imo ESL is the bigger name with more pull in esports so it might be better for the scene to put our support there. Worst case scenario it fails, ESL leaves, and were back where we are now.[/quote]
Sorry but what support? Like real talk, our community does more then almost any other gaming community when it comes to self support, but when it actually comes to action on bigger things we are absolutely terrible for it. Ill give some examples;
Razor arena. Literally free $$ and yet it died off because no one actually cared
TF2Center: People non stop bitching about how bad it is, an alternative is made, no one actually changes because "reasons"
Newbie mixes: Its not as bad anymore but for the longest time we had issues actually getting people to help out beyond them saying "its great for the game and really should be a thing"
FaceIt: More literal free $$ to pug, yet again no one actually play it.
Pugchamp: People literally never stop bitching about all the issues it has, and how bad it is, etc. etc. and yet Faceit is still totally dead?
Like, sorry, but as a community, (outside of a handful of people) all we really do when it comes to big things is say "yeah this is a great thing and we need it" only to totally ignore it when the time actually comes to actually do something about it. Hell even really shitty things like Tf2Center never got moved on, and with all of the players that bitch you would think that PugChamp should be burned at the stake, yet no one actually changes on any of it.
I like faceit, but i have to login to an alt to play it.Also, i'd rather give more support towards ESL considering they own ESEA i'm pretty sure. Maybe if we show enough support over time, we can maybe get LANs back?
I like faceit, but i have to login to an alt to play it.Also, i'd rather give more support towards ESL considering they own ESEA i'm pretty sure. Maybe if we show enough support over time, we can maybe get LANs back?
DEATH TO UGC
WII SPORTS NOW
DEATH TO UGC
WII SPORTS NOW
Tino_Sorry to piss in everyone's cheerios but this will not work. We can barley keep Faceit alive due to lack of players and interest. Why would ESL be any different?
We should probably focus on fixing and using the current systems we have before looking for more.
i dont mind the bad news but i cannot allow you to piss in my cheerios
[quote=Tino_]Sorry to piss in everyone's cheerios but this will not work. We can barley keep Faceit alive due to lack of players and interest. Why would ESL be any different?
We should probably focus on fixing and using the current systems we have before looking for more.[/quote]
i dont mind the bad news but i cannot allow you to piss in my cheerios
ESL and ESEA are the same company aren't they?
ESL and ESEA are the same company aren't they?
Tino_Razor arena. Literally free $$ and yet it died off because no one actually cared
Razer arena didn't die due to lack of participation at least not in Europe. There was a fixed budget allocated for the weekly cups which ran its course, the larger tournaments prizepools were secured on a per-tournament basis. Both Razer and the platform devs were pleased with participation in the larger tournaments and open to further support.
[quote=Tino_]
Razor arena. Literally free $$ and yet it died off because no one actually cared
[/quote]
Razer arena didn't die due to lack of participation at least not in Europe. There was a fixed budget allocated for the weekly cups which ran its course, the larger tournaments prizepools were secured on a per-tournament basis. Both Razer and the platform devs were pleased with participation in the larger tournaments and open to further support.
Tino_
a big thing for me personally with razer arena was that there wasn't a separate open and invite cup so yeah even if you got a pug team together or even an established team and played, yeah you may have made it to like semi-finals of the cup at best but then would lose to an invite team like froyotech or ascent
that coupled with the fact that prize distributions were fuck all terrible outside of first and second place made a lot of people stop playing because the only teams who ever won were the invite teams because again, there was no invite cup and open cup, just the two merged into one cup.
like people have already stated, faceit would be great if its pug system was more like a traditional pug system and not a pug system that was designed for games like csgo and frankly was half-assedly ported over without to much thought into things that are relative to a tf2 pug such as class lock-ins and a sub system, which are things that don't really matter in csgo because there are no classes so you don't have to fight to be the first in the server and subbing into a csgo game puts you at a possible advantage/disadvantage due to the complex economy system of the game
pugchamp has a lot of issues that have been brought up numerous times and to be brutally honest, unless tsc/erynn/whoever runs them anymore decides to sack up and make some fucking changes like banning down to the last map, having a substitute system that isn't just whoever smashes the button the fastest, and a system that doesn't afk people every two minutes, people will continue to bitch and complain
newbie mixes are making a comeback, but yes, growth is slow, and will probably be a bit slow because a lot of people have been busy scrimming hard with their teams. i for one don't want to boot up tf2 just to sit in a server and spectate on a friday night after scrimming 2-3 times a night for 3-4 days that week, i want to do something else. now that regular season is over a lot more coaches and even players will have time to sit down and join in on helping get newbie mixes back off the ground
also tf2stadium failed because a) it had to go up against a very well established albeit shittily run competitor and b) didn't have the tf2-wide brand recognition that tf2center has and continues to have
asking why tf2stadium failed is like asking why a family owned mom and pop burger place failed after being setup right next to a mcdonald's, it got beat out by brand recognition and prior experience
[quote=Tino_][/quote]
a big thing for me personally with razer arena was that there wasn't a separate open and invite cup so yeah even if you got a pug team together or even an established team and played, yeah you may have made it to like semi-finals of the cup at best but then would lose to an invite team like froyotech or ascent
that coupled with the fact that prize distributions were fuck all terrible outside of first and second place made a lot of people stop playing because the only teams who ever won were the invite teams because again, there was no invite cup and open cup, just the two merged into one cup.
like people have already stated, faceit would be great if its pug system was more like a traditional pug system and not a pug system that was designed for games like csgo and frankly was half-assedly ported over without to much thought into things that are relative to a tf2 pug such as class lock-ins and a sub system, which are things that don't really matter in csgo because there are no classes so you don't have to fight to be the first in the server and subbing into a csgo game puts you at a possible advantage/disadvantage due to the complex economy system of the game
pugchamp has a lot of issues that have been brought up numerous times and to be brutally honest, unless tsc/erynn/whoever runs them anymore decides to sack up and make some fucking changes like banning down to the last map, having a substitute system that isn't just whoever smashes the button the fastest, and a system that doesn't afk people every two minutes, people will continue to bitch and complain
newbie mixes are making a comeback, but yes, growth is slow, and will probably be a bit slow because a lot of people have been busy scrimming hard with their teams. i for one don't want to boot up tf2 just to sit in a server and spectate on a friday night after scrimming 2-3 times a night for 3-4 days that week, i want to do something else. now that regular season is over a lot more coaches and even players will have time to sit down and join in on helping get newbie mixes back off the ground
also tf2stadium failed because a) it had to go up against a very well established albeit shittily run competitor and b) didn't have the tf2-wide brand recognition that tf2center has and continues to have
asking why tf2stadium failed is like asking why a family owned mom and pop burger place failed after being setup right next to a mcdonald's, it got beat out by brand recognition and prior experience
I might be wrong but weren't some of the prizes for razor arena just gift cards to the razor store that you could only use there and you could also only use 1 per order, so you couldn't even save up a few of them to buy something without taking money out of the bank?
I might be wrong but weren't some of the prizes for razor arena just gift cards to the razor store that you could only use there and you could also only use 1 per order, so you couldn't even save up a few of them to buy something without taking money out of the bank?
Yes, most of that is right, but the issue is that it is all reasons as to why shit didn't work out, or justification as to why it was bad. Who's to say that ESL would be any better then faceit or RA? We have already had issues in the past specifically with ESL because they didn't listen tot he community and had a shitty product, and this was back when a lot more people were willing to actually do things and participate.
Pugchamp, is, well pugchamp. That horse is flattened at this point, but even though all people do is bitch no one is interested in looking for, or creating alternatives. No one is actually willing to put the effort it and would rather just talk about it.
As for newbie mixes, that is a issue we have been having for a long as I have been involved with them, almost 5 years total, 3 of those with me being head admin. Seasons don't actually make a massive difference, people not wanting to do anything other then say its a good thing / it should be supported was the primary issue.
Center vs. Stadium is honestly whatever, but it still illustrates my point. That being that we, as a community, are really, really bad at supporting things or making changes to things unless one or two people step up and put the entire project onto their back. And then the few times that is does happen those people usually get shit on, non stop, because what they are doing is not good enough, or is not exactly what people wanted out of it. Its why so many of the content and behind the scenes people have bailed in the past couple of years...
Regardless, my point is that while getting shit into ESL might be nice, we currently have other options right in front of us that we already neglect and saying that "ESL will be different" is a joke, because its been 10 years already, it wont be different.
Edit: Just want to say that I really hate pissing in peoples cheerios like this, but we as a community really need a reality check when it comes to who is actually doing what and what is actually viable.
Yes, most of that is right, but the issue is that it is all reasons as to why shit didn't work out, or justification as to why it was bad. Who's to say that ESL would be any better then faceit or RA? We have already had issues in the past specifically with ESL because they didn't listen tot he community and had a shitty product, and this was back when a lot more people were willing to actually do things and participate.
Pugchamp, is, well pugchamp. That horse is flattened at this point, but even though all people do is bitch no one is interested in looking for, or creating alternatives. No one is actually willing to put the effort it and would rather just talk about it.
As for newbie mixes, that is a issue we have been having for a long as I have been involved with them, almost 5 years total, 3 of those with me being head admin. Seasons don't actually make a massive difference, people not wanting to do anything other then say its a good thing / it should be supported was the primary issue.
Center vs. Stadium is honestly whatever, but it still illustrates my point. That being that we, as a community, are really, really bad at supporting things or making changes to things unless one or two people step up and put the entire project onto their back. And then the few times that is does happen those people usually get shit on, non stop, because what they are doing is not good enough, or is not exactly what people wanted out of it. Its why so many of the content and behind the scenes people have bailed in the past couple of years...
Regardless, my point is that while getting shit into ESL might be nice, we currently have other options right in front of us that we already neglect and saying that "ESL will be different" is a joke, because its been 10 years already, it wont be different.
Edit: Just want to say that I really hate pissing in peoples cheerios like this, but we as a community really need a reality check when it comes to who is actually doing what and what is actually viable.
Tino_
Pardon my ignorance, but what happens if ESL fails? Are there any terrible consequences?
[quote=Tino_]
[/quote]
Pardon my ignorance, but what happens if ESL fails? Are there any terrible consequences?
We just end up splitting our already stretched resources again and wasting every ones time.
So nothing bad or terrible, just the average TF2 project.
We just end up splitting our already stretched resources again and wasting every ones time.
So nothing bad or terrible, just the average TF2 project.
kmoo0105Pardon my ignorance, but what happens if ESL fails? Are there any terrible consequences?
If ESL fails as a result of the players then it more than likely just paints a bad picture of the scene, driving away other orgs/sites/companies from supporting us
If it's due to the system, however, there's nothing we can do but give feedback
[quote=kmoo0105]Pardon my ignorance, but what happens if ESL fails? Are there any terrible consequences?[/quote]
If ESL fails as a result of the players then it more than likely just paints a bad picture of the scene, driving away other orgs/sites/companies from supporting us
If it's due to the system, however, there's nothing we can do but give feedback
So much negativity, regardless of logic or reason, isn't really warranted. This is a big stepping stone for our scene, even if it is a bit farsighted, could lead to further recognition by ESL. We need to focus more energy into Newbie Mixes, continue our support for ESEA, and force interest into ESL if its even half decent. If we are successful with ESL and we start getting a steady increase in numbers, we could force valves recognition. We can make them play by our rules.
Even if it is all for nothing, even if it is a pipe dream, it still worth trying.
So much negativity, regardless of logic or reason, isn't really warranted. This is a big stepping stone for our scene, even if it is a bit farsighted, could lead to further recognition by ESL. We need to focus more energy into Newbie Mixes, continue our support for ESEA, and force interest into ESL if its even half decent. If we are successful with ESL and we start getting a steady increase in numbers, we could force valves recognition. We can make them play by our rules.
Even if it is all for nothing, even if it is a pipe dream, it still worth trying.
If Left 4 Dead 2 of all things can manage to stay on ESL Play, then TF2 will be just fine.
If Left 4 Dead 2 of all things can manage to stay on ESL Play, then TF2 will be just fine.
Fuck it, I'll try anything once
Fuck it, I'll try anything once
HildrethReal questions here aside from blind optimism people show in something like this.
Situation with ESL AC Client? I haven't paid any attention to ESL since it left TF2 the first time, but a lot of people had issue with the ESL Wire Client, which contributed to the less than impressive signups (though would probably be a realistic goal for them by todays standards). At the time I was a Div 5 player, so there was no incentive to play ESL, experience these issues when ETF2L was offering the same but with less problems.
Wire should not be causing any issues, just plug and play.
----
I see that people are mentioning other organisations as well. We will not step on anyone's toes, if they have a set schedule, it's best to avoid hosting ours at the same time -- that will only be bad for everyone, I can't see nothing good come from it.
As a reminder, and I will update my thread on reddit as well to include this: I'm hanging out on the r/tf2 Discord server as @Citru. If you would rather ask questions there instead, feel free to do so. :)
[quote=Hildreth]Real questions here aside from blind optimism people show in something like this.
Situation with ESL AC Client? I haven't paid any attention to ESL since it left TF2 the first time, but a lot of people had issue with the ESL Wire Client, which contributed to the less than impressive signups (though would probably be a realistic goal for them by todays standards). At the time I was a Div 5 player, so there was no incentive to play ESL, experience these issues when ETF2L was offering the same but with less problems.[/quote]
Wire should not be causing any issues, just plug and play.
----
I see that people are mentioning other organisations as well. We will not step on anyone's toes, if they have a set schedule, it's best to avoid hosting ours at the same time -- that will only be bad for everyone, I can't see nothing good come from it.
As a reminder, and I will update my thread on reddit as well to include this: I'm hanging out on the r/tf2 Discord server as @Citru. If you would rather ask questions there instead, feel free to do so. :)
tf.tv post from esl rep
[img]https://qph.ec.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-493968e878889ae5dd7927881e87275f-c[/img]
don't esl already own esea? why do they want to run 2 leagues for tf2? someone explain plz
don't esl already own esea? why do they want to run 2 leagues for tf2? someone explain plz
ward3ddon't esl already own esea? why do they want to run 2 leagues for tf2? someone explain plz
ESEA is an independent entity under ESL's roof.
[quote=ward3d]don't esl already own esea? why do they want to run 2 leagues for tf2? someone explain plz[/quote]
ESEA is an independent entity under ESL's roof.