[Idea]Reworking the pick/bans in Pick/Ban Prolander Tournament: So I have had this idea for a long time now. Never tried to actually make an illustration because I was too lazy. But now finally I have done it.
First of all I want to make it clear that this post isn't to point out flaws in the current system and disrespect it. It is a great idea, no doubt about it. These are mere suggestions which can definitely help teams break apart from the stale meta gameplay and give some more fun to the competitive scene.
To begin with, some observations I made in the current system:
1) Players not using saves judiciously in most cases as they have not much idea what the other team will ban.
2) Teams concentrate on only 1 player(MVP) often and the bans are related to his/her class.
3) Though you ban the weapons of choice of a really good player, that player often ends up with a similar performance more or less. (Bans have less effect on the strategy. They might help prevent side support strategy mostly.)
4) Stock weapons are the most preferred due to them being the most balanced and strong.
I am not an expert, so I am staying away from naming the flaws in this. If you observe the matches from season 1 of RGL.GG you would notice thaf there was surely much more variation from the regular metas but still it wasn't switched up much.
Here's what I propose:
1) Default Bans:
A. Remove the default bans of Razorback and Darwin's Danger Shield. (After the Pyro update both have gone design reworks.)
B. The reason they were default bans is most people banned them most of the times.
C. There will still be two default bans but of weapons banned by other teams in the tournament the most number of times till now. (Can't be stock*)
D. If weapons are at a tie, then default ban the weapon which got that number of bans first.
(Example : Say Jarate was banned 5 times and Gunslinger 4 times till now. Big Earner is currently at 3. If someone bans Big Earner and it gets banned 4 times in total, as Gunslinger was first to 4 it will be included in default bans. {If 2 matches are together include data till the previously completed match}).
E. For first match in the tournament use the data from last tournament.
F. Also, counting a weapon as default ban won't increase its ban counter by 1( like the Big Earner went from 3 to 4).
*I'll come to that later
2) Ban/Save order:
A. Reworking the order of bans and saves for teams which makes it more balanced.
B. Again I am not an expert at how tournament formats are made to be "fair". But this is my attempt which seems fair to me. Not much mathematical logic used in the order though.
C. Home team decides who goes first and accordingly the order will change.
D. In this example the away team goes first.
Default Save #1 is Medigun and Default Bans #1 & #2 were discussed above.
Then the orders are as follows.
●Team 1 Ban
●Team 2 Ban
●Team 2 Save
●Team 1 Save
●Team 2 Ban
●Team 1 Ban
●Team 1 Ban
●Team 2 Ban
●Team 1 Save
●Team 2 Save
●Team 2 Ban
●Team 1 Ban
Here is a pictorial representation.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rKj6yL9tvq-xwt6ajJIQC6jss4S95Spf/view?usp=drivesdk
3) Banning Stock Weapons:
A)The most controversial point so far. I asked few of my friends and some liked the idea and some said that it doesn't remain TF2 if you remove a class completely from the game. I agree. I thought about it and found that this is the best way to keep all the classes intact and also helping the game shift away a little from the stock meta.
B. Let the medic have the option to use the MediGun always.
C. Some way I find this could be boring for players is the weapons of MVP will be banned again and again and it can become frustrating to play. So teams will be given 1 weapon of their choice to save from stock weapons.(2nd last)
{Note that like other saves and bans these apply to both teams}
D. Teams will have to ban one and only one stock weapon which will be banned for both the teams. So every game will have only 7 stock weapons.
E. Reskins(The Original, etc.) will obviously get banned.
F. In order to prevent a team from exhausting all weapons in some slot of a class, (This will rarely happen as this means using all bans on one player) a weapon cannot be banned if rest of the weapons in that class slot have already been banned.
G. I added the weapon saves and ban last in the order because it kind off gives the strategy the team is going to play off in the game.
Here, I conclude my explanation.
Thank you for reading. Do share your views and criticisms on this. Suggestions would be much appreciated. If you like it please share this post and upvote it so that we would see this becoming a reality some day. :)
Here's my suggestion thread on Reddit : https://www.reddit.com/r/tf2/comments/7b3asd/reworking_pickbans_in_pickban_prolander/
https://www.reddit.com/r/truetf2/comments/7b3fop/reworking_pickbans_in_pickban_prolander/
[Idea]Reworking the pick/bans in Pick/Ban Prolander Tournament: So I have had this idea for a long time now. Never tried to actually make an illustration because I was too lazy. But now finally I have done it.
First of all I want to make it clear that this post isn't to point out flaws in the current system and disrespect it. It is a great idea, no doubt about it. These are mere suggestions which can definitely help teams break apart from the stale meta gameplay and give some more fun to the competitive scene.
To begin with, some observations I made in the current system:
1) Players not using saves judiciously in most cases as they have not much idea what the other team will ban.
2) Teams concentrate on only 1 player(MVP) often and the bans are related to his/her class.
3) Though you ban the weapons of choice of a really good player, that player often ends up with a similar performance more or less. (Bans have less effect on the strategy. They might help prevent side support strategy mostly.)
4) Stock weapons are the most preferred due to them being the most balanced and strong.
I am not an expert, so I am staying away from naming the flaws in this. If you observe the matches from season 1 of RGL.GG you would notice thaf there was surely much more variation from the regular metas but still it wasn't switched up much.
Here's what I propose:
[b]1) Default Bans:[/b]
A. Remove the default bans of Razorback and Darwin's Danger Shield. (After the Pyro update both have gone design reworks.)
B. The reason they were default bans is most people banned them most of the times.
C. There will still be two default bans but of weapons banned by other teams in the tournament the most number of times till now. (Can't be stock*)
D. If weapons are at a tie, then default ban the weapon which got that number of bans first.
(Example : Say Jarate was banned 5 times and Gunslinger 4 times till now. Big Earner is currently at 3. If someone bans Big Earner and it gets banned 4 times in total, as Gunslinger was first to 4 it will be included in default bans. {If 2 matches are together include data till the previously completed match}).
E. For first match in the tournament use the data from last tournament.
F. Also, counting a weapon as default ban won't increase its ban counter by 1( like the Big Earner went from 3 to 4).
*I'll come to that later
[b]2) Ban/Save order[/b]:
A. Reworking the order of bans and saves for teams which makes it more balanced.
B. Again I am not an expert at how tournament formats are made to be "fair". But this is my attempt which seems fair to me. Not much mathematical logic used in the order though.
C. Home team decides who goes first and accordingly the order will change.
D. In this example the away team goes first.
Default Save #1 is Medigun and Default Bans #1 & #2 were discussed above.
Then the orders are as follows.
●Team 1 Ban
●Team 2 Ban
●Team 2 Save
●Team 1 Save
●Team 2 Ban
●Team 1 Ban
●Team 1 Ban
●Team 2 Ban
●Team 1 Save
●Team 2 Save
●Team 2 Ban
●Team 1 Ban
Here is a pictorial representation.
[img]https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rKj6yL9tvq-xwt6ajJIQC6jss4S95Spf/view?usp=drivesdk[/img]
[b]3) Banning Stock Weapons:[/b]
A)The most controversial point so far. I asked few of my friends and some liked the idea and some said that it doesn't remain TF2 if you remove a class completely from the game. I agree. I thought about it and found that this is the best way to keep all the classes intact and also helping the game shift away a little from the stock meta.
B. Let the medic have the option to use the MediGun always.
C. Some way I find this could be boring for players is the weapons of MVP will be banned again and again and it can become frustrating to play. So teams will be given 1 weapon of their choice to save from stock weapons.(2nd last)
{Note that like other saves and bans these apply to both teams}
D. Teams will have to ban one and only one stock weapon which will be banned for both the teams. So every game will have only 7 stock weapons.
E. Reskins(The Original, etc.) will obviously get banned.
F. In order to prevent a team from exhausting all weapons in some slot of a class, (This will rarely happen as this means using all bans on one player) a weapon cannot be banned if rest of the weapons in that class slot have already been banned.
G. I added the weapon saves and ban last in the order because it kind off gives the strategy the team is going to play off in the game.
Here, I conclude my explanation.
Thank you for reading. Do share your views and criticisms on this. Suggestions would be much appreciated. If you like it please share this post and upvote it so that we would see this becoming a reality some day. :)
Here's my suggestion thread on Reddit : https://www.reddit.com/r/tf2/comments/7b3asd/reworking_pickbans_in_pickban_prolander/
https://www.reddit.com/r/truetf2/comments/7b3fop/reworking_pickbans_in_pickban_prolander/
how about just remove the pick/ban entirely lmao
how about just remove the pick/ban entirely lmao
I sure do love banning cool unlocks and being able to save gay ones as well as class limit 1 and 7 players and payload game mode
I sure do love banning cool unlocks and being able to save gay ones as well as class limit 1 and 7 players and payload game mode
wanting to have less stock weapons (the most well balanced and skill-intensive items in the game) is insane
wanting to have less stock weapons (the most well balanced and skill-intensive items in the game) is insane
These are mere suggestions which can definitely help teams break apart from the stale meta gameplay and give some more fun to the competitive scene.
so you're telling me... shaking the meta up a bit... doesn't stop the game from being stale in the long-run as players develop an optimal strategy?
[quote]These are mere suggestions which can definitely help teams break apart from the stale meta gameplay and give some more fun to the competitive scene.[/quote]
so you're telling me... shaking the meta up a bit... doesn't stop the game from being stale in the long-run as players develop an optimal strategy?
7v7 prolander is too stale(tm) its time for a new and innovative gamemode
7v7 prolander is too [b]stale[/b](tm) its time for a new and innovative gamemode
Most sports thrive on rules *not* changing over much. Things change as players change.
For example, I can remember a time when scout was considered an all around not so great class. In fact, usually day 1 of "learn how to play tf2" included a sermon on why healing scouts is a bad use of the medic's time. Which would get one labelled as an idiot today.
Now, scout has received quite a number of buffs as a class on the whole since then (medic speed boost, boston basher allowing scouts to build), and inadvertent buffs through changes to other classes (demo sticky nerf, equalizer nerf, gunboats). But the dominance of scouts in 6s began a LONG time before any of the changes I mentioned above became a factor.
The game didn't change - the players did. People figured out how to play scout better than they did before, or at least, the number of exceptionally good scouts increased. The untethering of the roaming soldier also helped him a bit because you used to have a combo that could include two shotgun soldiers lol.
Given enough time, other players on other classes will figure out how to come up to speed with scouts and will change the way the game is played again. Zany unlocks are not required. All they succeed in doing is making the game more frustrating to play and harder to learn for the uninitiated. Methinks it'll swing back to the demo class, at least in NA, because we've got some demos that are just nutty good lol.
It's also possible to just buck the meta and see what happens. Back when I played, before arrows ruined the mechanic, I really put a lot of emphasis on pushing as quickly as possible (I know a lot of other players did the same). You could really shake up a game if you knew how to push on extremely marginal uber advantages. We're talking like 15% advantage. Now most teams lag until 25% or sometimes even 30% because they've been conditioned to not trust their counting of ubers.
I should also point out that I personally would like to see a return to shotgun roamer experimentally (not by banning gunboats, just by not using them and seeing how it goes as a team thing) lol.
Most sports thrive on rules *not* changing over much. Things change as players change.
For example, I can remember a time when scout was considered an all around not so great class. In fact, usually day 1 of "learn how to play tf2" included a sermon on why healing scouts is a bad use of the medic's time. Which would get one labelled as an idiot today.
Now, scout has received quite a number of buffs as a class on the whole since then (medic speed boost, boston basher allowing scouts to build), and inadvertent buffs through changes to other classes (demo sticky nerf, equalizer nerf, gunboats). But the dominance of scouts in 6s began a LONG time before any of the changes I mentioned above became a factor.
The game didn't change - the players did. People figured out how to play scout better than they did before, or at least, the number of exceptionally good scouts increased. The untethering of the roaming soldier also helped him a bit because you used to have a combo that could include two shotgun soldiers lol.
Given enough time, other players on other classes will figure out how to come up to speed with scouts and will change the way the game is played again. Zany unlocks are not required. All they succeed in doing is making the game more frustrating to play and harder to learn for the uninitiated. Methinks it'll swing back to the demo class, at least in NA, because we've got some demos that are just nutty good lol.
It's also possible to just buck the meta and see what happens. Back when I played, before arrows ruined the mechanic, I really put a lot of emphasis on pushing as quickly as possible (I know a lot of other players did the same). You could really shake up a game if you knew how to push on extremely marginal uber advantages. We're talking like 15% advantage. Now most teams lag until 25% or sometimes even 30% because they've been conditioned to not trust their counting of ubers.
I should also point out that I personally would like to see a return to shotgun roamer experimentally (not by banning gunboats, just by not using them and seeing how it goes as a team thing) lol.
i pick 6s and ban prolander
i pick 6s and ban [i]pro[/i]lander
To be honest in my experience 7s is fun if you don't try to make it into something it isn't. Play it with your friends if you want or not, its not gonna interfere with your esea at all unless you scrim like every single day. Don't overthink it lol
To be honest in my experience 7s is fun if you don't try to make it into something it isn't. Play it with your friends if you want or not, its not gonna interfere with your esea at all unless you scrim like every single day. Don't overthink it lol
I've watched a bit of prolander and it's not that bad of a gamemode. I think it's fluider than HL while staying very close ot the pub server gameplay experience. Pick and ban is a fun concept. I'd play it over HL.
But i'd never play prolander over 6s. It is a different game and it's much better to me, more movement, more skill, etc. It's a bit like sevens rugby vs 15s to me.
How would you even play shotgun roamer Marxist? Without heals you better not fuck any jump up lol
I've watched a bit of prolander and it's not that bad of a gamemode. I think it's fluider than HL while staying very close ot the pub server gameplay experience. Pick and ban is a fun concept. I'd play it over HL.
But i'd never play prolander over 6s. It is a different game and it's much better to me, more movement, more skill, etc. It's a bit like sevens rugby vs 15s to me.
How would you even play shotgun roamer Marxist? Without heals you better not fuck any jump up lol
Basically the way shotgun roamer worked was you had a "pocket" who tended to hang around in the combo during holds - a lot like a "combo scout" does now, and build, but once you pushed he was more like a scout than a true pocket soldier in many cases. Because the roaming soldier would usually set in on a double bomb with the pocket or hold/go on a flank route - and then they would make a decision on "rotating" basically whichever soldier had less health would drop back to the combo, and the one with the most would behave as the roamer does now. Then you would keep bouncing your soldiers back and forth until somebody died or you took the point, with the pocket tending to "rest" near the medic when in doubt as to where to be.
Jumping isn't so bad taking the extra 30 damage, but it does effect your ability to do mullti-jumps. That's partially why decent teams used to go to jump servers to recruit their roamers - because health was at a premium lol. If you ever want to humor yourself, track down some old LAN demos with early ww- (wonderwall) playing for the first time with gunboats lol. He would just chain completely useless jumps together purely because he could. It would also lead to more scout-based suicide plays in stalemates, which I think could, theoretically, be superior to soldier (tagg) bombs on some maps.
Basically the way shotgun roamer worked was you had a "pocket" who tended to hang around in the combo during holds - a lot like a "combo scout" does now, and build, but once you pushed he was more like a scout than a true pocket soldier in many cases. Because the roaming soldier would usually set in on a double bomb with the pocket or hold/go on a flank route - and then they would make a decision on "rotating" basically whichever soldier had less health would drop back to the combo, and the one with the most would behave as the roamer does now. Then you would keep bouncing your soldiers back and forth until somebody died or you took the point, with the pocket tending to "rest" near the medic when in doubt as to where to be.
Jumping isn't so bad taking the extra 30 damage, but it does effect your ability to do mullti-jumps. That's partially why decent teams used to go to jump servers to recruit their roamers - because health was at a premium lol. If you ever want to humor yourself, track down some old LAN demos with early ww- (wonderwall) playing for the first time with gunboats lol. He would just chain completely useless jumps together purely because he could. It would also lead to more scout-based suicide plays in stalemates, which I think could, theoretically, be superior to soldier (tagg) bombs on some maps.
Shotty roamer can also be played hard in the flank and away from the combo kinda like current roamer is but with more spam and more quake like pack tracking and aggression based off of that. It is actually really fun to play, the issue is your team has to function differently around the flank and roamer due to the lack of funboats, but the addition of DPS from the shotty.
Shotty roamer can also be played hard in the flank and away from the combo kinda like current roamer is but with more spam and more quake like pack tracking and aggression based off of that. It is actually really fun to play, the issue is your team has to function differently around the flank and roamer due to the lack of funboats, but the addition of DPS from the shotty.