.

In what world does the natasha make the game more fun or more skilled

Is this a valid reason considering the Escape Plan is already the only choice?

damn i agree with you for once

At this point, only game breaking players should be banned, and the goal to should be to have as few players banned as possible. After recent departures, these players may simply be "overpowered" they have proven to be game breaking and should be banned:

• b4nny

#mtf2ga

cow mangler :(

alright does anybody think it'll be broken to kritz a cm5k soldier because it now does minicrits

the reason the cm5k is bad is it does jack shit to sentries, the kritz thing is completely irrelevant

"It's not overpowered or broken, but it's different, so we're banning it." I disagree with this philosophy.

How did the Natascha get changed? The only thing I can find is a nerf, that cleaver doesn't crit when the target is slowed. Unless you mean the general buff to all Miniguns?

base jumper, beggars, sandman, backburner, bonk unbanned? why? who is in charge of this whitelist and why do we as players have no say in this?

how do you play this game for so long and still have such horrible ideas about it

someone needs to setup a site where players can vote for what should be banned and allowed. It’s the only way to make fair decisions on so many weapons/items. a few people should not be able to change the global whitelist overnight and THEN ask for feedback that they could easily just ignore.

I really think the Pocket Pistol is broken. If people actually think it's anything less than a straight upgrade (especially since you want to unban Atomizer), then you can test it, but I think it's going to take maybe ten minutes before people realize it's broken as fuck. 5-ish damage per hit at mid range is insane on Scout.

Sure. I will miss the Pistol / Winger dichotomy that will disappear if the Atomizer is unbanned, but Atomizer isn't broken anymore.

The fact that you do minicrits is ridiculous. It's worse without speed, but you don't take any extra damage until you first shoot your gun, which is pretty nice. Minicrits on Scout are broken even without speed. Minicrit Scattergun is absolutely insane on sacs, during Ubers, and possibly Shortstop / CaC to mid on Granary. Especially if Atomizer is unbanned, you're not giving up much of anything to run CaC and the benefit is absolutely nuts.

spamming a 50 damage + 40 bleed projectile that's immune to falloff every 5 seconds is still broken without minicrits.

Sure.

Sure.

It's annoying as fuck, even just if Soldier's using it. This doesn't need to be a thing, we don't need to incentivize waddling and deincentivize jumping.

Borderline, deserves to be tested. Will note that I personally detest fighting it, but I play roamer and the only thing that weapon is good for is obliterating roamers, so take note of that. It might also be broken in conjunction with Bonk sac (you dodge most damage with the jumps, time the Bonk so it ends right as you land on the Medic's face, and puts out 208 damage in .315 seconds), but that's not that important since Bonk is broken in and of itself.

I am 90% sure nobody will run this thing and give up Gunboats or Shotgun.

If Eviction Notice didn't make people run Heavy to mid, Steak won't either. If you stack them, you can't switch to your primary and you get to mid with 100 health because of Eviction Notice change.

It shoots small health kits, nobody will use it.

Uh...yeah, it's been proven to be broken like, every other season.

Why does anyone want to play a metagame where Medics don't run Ubersaw? Can we just ban every non-Ubersaw melee right now?

I'd like to see this tested. It seems like Vaccinator led to uncrackable last stalemates in EU, and nobody ever equipped it in NA. I'd like to see NA invite teams try the Vaccinator Heavy + Pyro protecting Sentry or Sniper + Sentry hold, since it seems like our top level teams are closer together in skill.

...hasn't it? Do people actually think free, unmissable minicrits with giant splash every time you hit resupply isn't broken?

I really don't like how you can jump your Medic out of shitty situations, but it's worth testing I guess.

Agree with all of this.

Battalion's Backup is also certainly broken, and Bonk, Parachute, CaC, and Pocket Pistol most likely (99%) belong there as well.

The Beggar's Bazooka is completely useless so long as people get banned for abusing the glitch, Sandman is a joke (the slow is worthless compared to -15 HP), and Backburner facecritting is so wonky to setup that just WM1ing is better in every situation.

EDIT:

Yeah, that reason is bullshit. The real reason is running Heavy to mid, letting Medics escape when they should die, and encouraging turtling and non-standard classes in general to an unhealthy level. People are still going to run it outside of midfights, bombing with whip speed is fucking amazing.

ABSOLUTELY NOT
Do you not remember S14?
What made it broken hasn't changed.

I'd like to make a note that the Dragon's Fury obliterates it, for what that's worth. (Also, Heavy and Loose Cannon are worse, Machina is a stronger option against it, and Axtinguisher is bad.)

How exactly does Quick-Fix build rate work? There's nothing in the patch notes or the wiki.

EDIT: ty DarkNecrid

to light up your eyes: "How exactly does Quick-Fix build rate work?"
to light up your eyes: basically they changed the entire build rate mechanic
to light up your eyes: before you got max rate up to 142.5%, which means QF always had max rate as u know
to light up your eyes: now you get max rate as long as you're genuinely healing someone (overheals count)

I think it should be banned simply because it lets the Medic escape fights he deserves to die in which creates more stalemates, and megaheal still ties with Uber while the heal rate means you win the post-fight, which encourages a slow playstyle. The fact that it encourages running Pyro, Sniper, and Heavy, and can't walk through stickytraps, is also an issue, although the Quickiebomb Launcher deleting stickytraps mitigates the last bit.

However, it may be that people will just run Dragon's Fury / Detonator or Scorch Shot and demolish it so hard that nobody will run it.

unban the thermal thruster on pugchamp immediately

thank u

The main issue was never the build rate.
It is a advantage neutralizer.
Heath matters less. Picks matter less. Medics get a get out of jail free card.
If it is ever aloud i will not pick up this game until it is banned. It is that detrimental. As a med main i do not want this in the game. The stupid scout speed buff was bad enough.

I edited my post with more thoughts. I agree that it'd be an unhealthy change for the metagame if it becomes ubiquitous, although I'm not sure what you mean when you say that picks matter less in a Quick-Fix meta (unless you mean you can't push off of one pick with megaheal because it's terrible at walking through chokes and encourages running turtle classes?)

Yes
It is very hard to get a positive aggressive exchange with the quickfix in play.
You literally have to wait around and try to bore the other team to death.
It is the least fun i have ever had in TF2.

yes, let's embrace a full-time quick-fix medic meta with pocket heavies and loose cannon demos while machina snipers play flank next to full-time pyros

ban the crossbow

Absolutely no bonk, don't be ridiculous

Really don't get the new approach to the whitelists in the last few years. There was nothing wrong with how we used to play tf2.

Soda Popper does more DPS than stock AFAIK
Second Banana refills twice as fast as sandvich and still gives 200HP making it a straight upgrade from sandvich imo
Quick Fix heals at 140% rate, forcing enemy team to either use it too or somehow do 40% more damage in midfight to win the fight

Id like Jarate being unbanned, and Mantreads seem ok, they arent better than gunboats by far

edit: also heres a graph comparing Dragon Fury DMG to stock flamethrower https://i.redd.it/jfpour3tehvz.jpg

In practice, not really. It does more DPS right after SP shoots the second shot, and it has better DPS after Scattergun shoots 6 shots because of a more effective reload. However, in practice the Scattergun has higher DPS because longer intervals between fighting and reloading are more organic for Scout, since you usually will die or kill something before the extra DPS from the efficient reload becomes relevant, and you'd fall back to your Medic and get rebuffed in roughly the intervals of shoot 6 shots-->reload 6 shots.

It gives Medics like 30 HP, the upside only matters if you're playing aggressive flank Heavy and people take 1v1s with you, which is a shit idea and nobody will do that.

if the scene is to grow we have to find a middle ground with valve, this nostalgia doesn't help the scene in any way

I think you would be surprised how it plays out, in my experience if you shoot at them enough it slows them to a snail and makes them a free kill, I think it's definitely at least worth a test

I think Atomizer is not op anymore, from what it seems it's good for getting into hiding places, tho Boston basher is already good for this as well + you can build uber with it. We could also consider testing Guillotine.
I think we should test Dragon's Fury instead of banning it just because of Pyro changes alone

Other than that, I agree with changes

I think we should go back to Xbow, ubersaw, kritz and gunboats.

Then we can have fun and high quality TF2 for a season where we are all happy and enjoying life.

i'm sorry but for how many years have we been "trying to find a middle ground with valve"? They've proven time and time again with every single update that they have no idea how the game should be balanced or what changes people actually want. We should be trying to grow our scene, but ruining it with ridiculous unlocks is not the way to do it.

Maybe we should add some other old unlocks alongside of those like Buff Banner, Pain Train, Blutsauger, Charge'N'Targe, Eyelander, Huntsman and Gunslinger to add at least little variety.

While I think it'd benefit more in terms of stable, balanced and skillful games, it'd make comp look more stale and repetitive for other players outside of comp, considering how they think so about current meta.

I'm sorry if you feel the game has been ruined by this process but saying there was nothing wrong with the whitelist 2 years ago is incorrect and it sounds like you know that. Change has to happen for the scene to grow and maybe an open whitelist as a goal wasn't the best way to go about it. However, 2 years in and you act as if things could just go back and it would be better, that's a very low-resolution view and something like undoing 2 years effort would have other consequences.

this logic is pretty backwards imo.

the scene will ultimately grow with the attempted inclusion of more unlocks. in order to appeal to newcomers, you have to make the competitive format seem at least a little more native to the actual casual game. for example, look at cs:go; the competitive format itself is different from the casual game but there are no weapons banned. in no way am i saying the two games are comparable otherwise, but in order to achieve a wider appeal, moving towards a smaller, more inclusive whitelist is important. besides, valve has actually made a good amount of decent/well-crafted changes to a lot of the "op" and "broken" weapons out there.

i'm not sure what your "growth plan" for the scene is but moving forward in trying to find the "middle ground," as you say, seems like the best shot.