Can we only allow Gunboats, Kritzkrieg, and Ubersaw please? It would improve the quality of game play immensely.
December Global Whitelist Changes
posted in
TF2 General Discussion
Can we only allow Gunboats, Kritzkrieg, and Ubersaw please? It would improve the quality of game play immensely.
MechaCan we only allow Gunboats, Kritzkrieg, and Ubersaw please? It would improve the quality of game play immensely.
haha yes FRICK the people who like to use the winger, the original, the iron bomber and the crossbow. and also frick rollouts with escape plan too
[quote=Mecha]Can we only allow Gunboats, Kritzkrieg, and Ubersaw please? It would improve the quality of game play immensely.[/quote]
haha yes FRICK the people who like to use the winger, the original, the iron bomber and the crossbow. and also frick rollouts with escape plan too
haha yes FRICK the people who like to use the winger, the original, the iron bomber and the crossbow. and also frick rollouts with escape plan too
pyrotechnicAs long as the crossbow is also allowed I don't think the justification for the GRU is great.
the gru doesnt just make you lose hp, it decreases your total hp, so xbow cant heal it back up instantly.
on the topic of "gamebreaking" weapons, am i the only one that thinks the xbow is incredibly broken?
[quote=pyrotechnic]As long as the crossbow is also allowed I don't think the justification for the GRU is great.[/quote]
the gru doesnt just make you lose hp, it decreases your total hp, so xbow cant heal it back up instantly.
on the topic of "gamebreaking" weapons, am i the only one that thinks the xbow is incredibly broken?
the gru doesnt just make you lose hp, it decreases your total hp, so xbow cant heal it back up instantly.
on the topic of "gamebreaking" weapons, am i the only one that thinks the xbow is incredibly broken?
skatespyrotechnicAs long as the crossbow is also allowed I don't think the justification for the GRU is great.
the gru doesnt just make you lose hp, it decreases your total hp, so xbow cant heal it back up instantly.
on the topic of "gamebreaking" weapons, am i the only one that thinks the xbow is incredibly broken?
No.
[quote=skates][quote=pyrotechnic]As long as the crossbow is also allowed I don't think the justification for the GRU is great.[/quote]
the gru doesnt just make you lose hp, it decreases your total hp, so xbow cant heal it back up instantly.
on the topic of "gamebreaking" weapons, am i the only one that thinks the xbow is incredibly broken?[/quote]
No.
the gru doesnt just make you lose hp, it decreases your total hp, so xbow cant heal it back up instantly.
on the topic of "gamebreaking" weapons, am i the only one that thinks the xbow is incredibly broken?[/quote]
No.
i absolutely guarantee you if you asked most casual players what's the biggest barrier to entry within competitive tf2, there answer would be either "I can't play my main class full time" or "I don't want to play 5cp all the time" (ignore viaduct), not that their specific unlock is banned. Pushing for a more open whitelist at the expense of competitive players enjoyment of the game doesn't make any sense because in the end you'll still end up banning shit that is absolutely game-breaking but theoretically may make more classes viable full time like the disciplinary action or wrangler, and this class/map barrier to entry will still exist for newcomers. (note: I am in no way advocating we unban shit that's blatantly broken)
also i challenge u to find a casual scout main who's actually like "oh wow bonk is unbanned now in competitive now i'm going to try it because that one weapon ban was the only thing that was holding me back !!"
i absolutely guarantee you if you asked most casual players what's the biggest barrier to entry within competitive tf2, there answer would be either "I can't play my main class full time" or "I don't want to play 5cp all the time" (ignore viaduct), not that their specific unlock is banned. Pushing for a more open whitelist at the expense of competitive players enjoyment of the game doesn't make any sense because in the end you'll still end up banning shit that is absolutely game-breaking but [i]theoretically[/i] may make more classes viable full time like the disciplinary action or wrangler, and this class/map barrier to entry will still exist for newcomers. (note: I am in no way advocating we unban shit that's blatantly broken)
also i challenge u to find a casual scout main who's actually like "oh wow bonk is unbanned now in competitive now i'm going to try it because that one weapon ban was the only thing that was holding me back !!"
also i challenge u to find a casual scout main who's actually like "oh wow bonk is unbanned now in competitive now i'm going to try it because that one weapon ban was the only thing that was holding me back !!"
Its hard to make a case for the dragon's fury needing a ban when normal flamethrowers are so much more busted. I don't understand why comp players are scared of this weapon. It does have situations where it can be very good, and it can feel a bit meme-y but at least the weapon requires some form of aim. It kills a a decent bit faster with a bit more range, but it heavily punishes missing and it gimps airblast into leaving you vulnerable for 1.5 seconds which is HUGE considering how insane new airblasts are. Everything June has been saying about it is completely correct, I legitimately have no clue why people are so scared of it.
Imo with how the game currently stands, the only weapons that deserve bans are the wrangler, short circuit, quick fix, vaccinator, mad milk, jarate, bonk, and whip. Most of these weapons were discussed in depth last year, and have not had significant changes that would fix their issues.
Its hard to make a case for the dragon's fury needing a ban when normal flamethrowers are so much more busted. I don't understand why comp players are scared of this weapon. It does have situations where it can be very good, and it can feel a bit meme-y but at least the weapon requires some form of aim. It kills a a decent bit faster with a bit more range, but it heavily punishes missing and it gimps airblast into leaving you vulnerable for 1.5 seconds which is HUGE considering how insane new airblasts are. Everything June has been saying about it is completely correct, I legitimately have no clue why people are so scared of it.
Imo with how the game currently stands, the only weapons that deserve bans are the wrangler, short circuit, quick fix, vaccinator, mad milk, jarate, bonk, and whip. Most of these weapons were discussed in depth last year, and have not had significant changes that would fix their issues.
Imo with how the game currently stands, the only weapons that deserve bans are the wrangler, short circuit, quick fix, vaccinator, mad milk, jarate, bonk, and whip. Most of these weapons were discussed in depth last year, and have not had significant changes that would fix their issues.
ArguedOysterNobody has delusions that unbanning a few unlocks will bring in a massive influx of new players. The idea is that the more inclusive and open we seem, the lower the barrier of entry goes.
??
The biggest whitelist unbanning event brought in how many new players exactly? Barrier of entry seems the same as ever to me.
Not to mention that most remaining banned weapons aren't really unlocks that create an entirely new playstyle for the class (sydney sleeper/soda popper/quick fix/vaccinator/dragon's fury are the only one's I would count as something entirely different from stock gameplay). I seriously seriously doubt that players don't join competitive because the secondary or melee they want to use the most is banned.
[quote=ArguedOyster]
Nobody has delusions that unbanning a few unlocks will bring in a massive influx of new players. The idea is that the more inclusive and open we seem, the lower the barrier of entry goes. [/quote]
??
The biggest whitelist unbanning event brought in [url=https://imgur.com/EP0gYj5]how many[/url] [url=https://imgur.com/JGoTAPB]new players[/url] exactly? Barrier of entry seems the same as ever to me.
Not to mention that most remaining banned weapons aren't really unlocks that create an entirely new playstyle for the class (sydney sleeper/soda popper/quick fix/vaccinator/dragon's fury are the only one's I would count as something entirely different from stock gameplay). I seriously seriously doubt that players don't join competitive because the secondary or melee they want to use the most is banned.
Nobody has delusions that unbanning a few unlocks will bring in a massive influx of new players. The idea is that the more inclusive and open we seem, the lower the barrier of entry goes. [/quote]
??
The biggest whitelist unbanning event brought in [url=https://imgur.com/EP0gYj5]how many[/url] [url=https://imgur.com/JGoTAPB]new players[/url] exactly? Barrier of entry seems the same as ever to me.
Not to mention that most remaining banned weapons aren't really unlocks that create an entirely new playstyle for the class (sydney sleeper/soda popper/quick fix/vaccinator/dragon's fury are the only one's I would count as something entirely different from stock gameplay). I seriously seriously doubt that players don't join competitive because the secondary or melee they want to use the most is banned.
KredibleUse a weapon pick/ban phase
The white list will be the bare minimum a white list could be, only banning weapons that are universally agreed to be outright game breaking. If there's any questioning around a weapon being on the white list, keep it unbanned.
With this white list in place, have players or captains quickly decide in the match page or in the server before the game what weapons to ban (Maybe this would give casters something to talk about before matches).
This would allow for flexibility and new play styles to arise while still centering around a loose meta.
It could possibly follow a ban/pick phase such as:or something along those lines.
- Global Whitelist
- Team A Bans 1
- Team B Bans 2
- Team A Bans 1
- Team A Saves 1
- Team B Saves 1
You forgot the part where you add 1 player to each team.
[quote=Kredible][u][b]Use a weapon pick/ban phase[/b][/u]
The white list will be the bare minimum a white list could be, only banning weapons that are universally agreed to be outright game breaking. If there's any questioning around a weapon being on the white list, keep it unbanned.
With this white list in place, have players or captains quickly decide in the match page or in the server before the game what weapons to ban (Maybe this would give casters something to talk about before matches).
This would allow for flexibility and new play styles to arise while still centering around a loose meta.
It could possibly follow a ban/pick phase such as:
[list]
[*] Global Whitelist
[*] Team A Bans 1
[*] Team B Bans 2
[*] Team A Bans 1
[*] Team A Saves 1
[*] Team B Saves 1
[/list]
or something along those lines.[/quote]
You forgot the part where you add 1 player to each team.
The white list will be the bare minimum a white list could be, only banning weapons that are universally agreed to be outright game breaking. If there's any questioning around a weapon being on the white list, keep it unbanned.
With this white list in place, have players or captains quickly decide in the match page or in the server before the game what weapons to ban (Maybe this would give casters something to talk about before matches).
This would allow for flexibility and new play styles to arise while still centering around a loose meta.
It could possibly follow a ban/pick phase such as:
[list]
[*] Global Whitelist
[*] Team A Bans 1
[*] Team B Bans 2
[*] Team A Bans 1
[*] Team A Saves 1
[*] Team B Saves 1
[/list]
or something along those lines.[/quote]
You forgot the part where you add 1 player to each team.
This here is just my opinion, but:
Weapons that should be/stay banned-> Bonk, CaC, Mad Milk, PBPP, Sandman, Disciplinary action, Rescue ranger, Wrangler, Short circuit, Quick fix, Vacc, Solemn vow, Sydney sleeper, Jarate and reserve shooter. Mostly because these are either op, break the game or make it more boring.
Now, weapons that i think should be tested to see if they should be allowed-> all new/changed jungle update weps (imo most of them are fine, nothing overpowered or broken), Soda popper, Natasha (i do believe this one is ban worthy), Guillotine, atomizer, mantreads, GRU, fists of steel and vita saw.
And then my personal opinion that the Xbow is brutally broken but i believe its so meta that removing it is literally impossible
This here is just my opinion, but:
Weapons that should be/stay banned-> Bonk, CaC, Mad Milk, PBPP, Sandman, Disciplinary action, Rescue ranger, Wrangler, Short circuit, Quick fix, Vacc, Solemn vow, Sydney sleeper, Jarate and reserve shooter. Mostly because these are either op, break the game or make it more boring.
Now, weapons that i think should be tested to see if they should be allowed-> all new/changed jungle update weps (imo most of them are fine, nothing overpowered or broken), Soda popper, Natasha (i do believe this one is ban worthy), Guillotine, atomizer, mantreads, GRU, fists of steel and vita saw.
And then my personal opinion that the Xbow is brutally broken but i believe its so meta that removing it is literally impossible
Weapons that should be/stay banned-> Bonk, CaC, Mad Milk, PBPP, Sandman, Disciplinary action, Rescue ranger, Wrangler, Short circuit, Quick fix, Vacc, Solemn vow, Sydney sleeper, Jarate and reserve shooter. Mostly because these are either op, break the game or make it more boring.
Now, weapons that i think should be tested to see if they should be allowed-> all new/changed jungle update weps (imo most of them are fine, nothing overpowered or broken), Soda popper, Natasha (i do believe this one is ban worthy), Guillotine, atomizer, mantreads, GRU, fists of steel and vita saw.
And then my personal opinion that the Xbow is brutally broken but i believe its so meta that removing it is literally impossible
The last thing we need is a long and drag out pick phase for something that doesn't have a that much of an impact.
The last thing we need is a long and drag out pick phase for something that doesn't have a that much of an impact.
I know the natascha is getting banned but the flying guillotine used to have a bug where it would crit people who are under other affects such as being slowed by natascha or airblasted because these count as a stun. I don't know if this is still a thing but might be important as its probably not something many people know and is pretty broken.
imo this and vacc are the most egregious offenders from stuff people are suggesting additionally be unbanned.
I know the natascha is getting banned but the flying guillotine used to have a bug where it would crit people who are under other affects such as being slowed by natascha or airblasted because these count as a stun. I don't know if this is still a thing but might be important as its probably not something many people know and is pretty broken.
imo this and vacc are the most egregious offenders from stuff people are suggesting additionally be unbanned.
imo this and vacc are the most egregious offenders from stuff people are suggesting additionally be unbanned.
KredibleUse a weapon pick/ban phase
The white list will be the bare minimum a white list could be, only banning weapons that are universally agreed to be outright game breaking. If there's any questioning around a weapon being on the white list, keep it unbanned.
With this white list in place, have players or captains quickly decide in the match page or in the server before the game what weapons to ban (Maybe this would give casters something to talk about before matches).
This would allow for flexibility and new play styles to arise while still centering around a loose meta.
It could possibly follow a ban/pick phase such as:or something along those lines.
- Global Whitelist
- Team A Bans 1
- Team B Bans 2
- Team A Bans 1
- Team A Saves 1
- Team B Saves 1
Doesn't work.
If you look at the pick/ban system in Sigafoo cup, they don't touch any broken shit for the core classes, they only ban unlocks based on who has a better Pyro / Engineer. This isn't DOTA where every team is playing a different comp - everyone is running Scout, Soldier, Demo, Medic, and Sniper, and Stock Heavy / Spy are pretty much top tier loadouts so banning is pointless - the only bans that matter are Short Circuit, Wrangler, Gunslinger, Powerjack, Degreaser, Dragon's Fury because they actually cripple the effectiveness of those classes. Pick / ban will not solve the fact that there is no incentive to ban broken shit on core classes because it won't give you an advantage over the other team since it gimps both teams.
springrollsi absolutely guarantee you if you asked most casual players what's the biggest barrier to entry within competitive tf2, there answer would be either "I can't play my main class full time" or "I don't want to play 5cp all the time" (ignore viaduct), not that their specific unlock is banned.
...
also i challenge u to find a casual scout main who's actually like "oh wow bonk is unbanned now in competitive now i'm going to try it because that one weapon ban was the only thing that was holding me back !!"
[/quote]
This is a good point. I think that a big reason that 5CP is so offputting to casual players is that it discourages running non-standard classes due to how fast it is.
Dragon's Fury is strong enough that it'd give Pyros full-time viability, at least at lower levels, without being actually bullshit strong like other unlocks that give a enough of a boost in viability to justify running them (Sydney Sleeper, Jarate, Short Circuit). I know dozens of Pyros who never got into 6s because Pyro was too weak for 6s, Highlander is a terrible, boring gamemode, and Highlander Pyro is the most terrible, boring class in that gamemode. If you assume that every class has a roughly equal number of players, and change the amount of viable full-time classes from four to five, that's a 25% increase in players. That's a sizable difference.
As for the other unlocks, I don't think it's that cut and dry. I think a lenient whitelist makes competitive TF2 less of a leap from pubs. We shouldn't bother with obviously-bullshit stuff like Bonk, but I think that it'd be dangerous to return to a strict medlocks + Gunboats whitelist because it'd make competitive seem intimidating.
Pushing for a more open whitelist at the expense of competitive players enjoyment of the game doesn't make any sense because in the end you'll still end up banning shit that is absolutely game-breaking but theoretically may make more classes viable full time like the disciplinary action or wrangler, and this class/map barrier to entry will still exist for newcomers. (note: I am in no way advocating we unban shit that's blatantly broken)
I agree with this, but I'd like to make a note that competitive players instinctively dislike all change. Look at how long ETF2L players refused to unban Gunboats, for instance, or how even to this day nobody equips Battalion's Backup even though it's blatantly overpowered. We need to make sure that we're banning things because they're actually overpowered, and actively try to fight that bias against new things so we can make sure that the metagame we have is as good as possible.
[quote=Kredible][u][b]Use a weapon pick/ban phase[/b][/u]
The white list will be the bare minimum a white list could be, only banning weapons that are universally agreed to be outright game breaking. If there's any questioning around a weapon being on the white list, keep it unbanned.
With this white list in place, have players or captains quickly decide in the match page or in the server before the game what weapons to ban (Maybe this would give casters something to talk about before matches).
This would allow for flexibility and new play styles to arise while still centering around a loose meta.
It could possibly follow a ban/pick phase such as:
[list]
[*] Global Whitelist
[*] Team A Bans 1
[*] Team B Bans 2
[*] Team A Bans 1
[*] Team A Saves 1
[*] Team B Saves 1
[/list]
or something along those lines.[/quote]
Doesn't work.
If you look at the pick/ban system in Sigafoo cup, they don't touch any broken shit for the core classes, they only ban unlocks based on who has a better Pyro / Engineer. This isn't DOTA where every team is playing a different comp - everyone is running Scout, Soldier, Demo, Medic, and Sniper, and Stock Heavy / Spy are pretty much top tier loadouts so banning is pointless - the only bans that matter are Short Circuit, Wrangler, Gunslinger, Powerjack, Degreaser, Dragon's Fury because they actually cripple the effectiveness of those classes. Pick / ban will not solve the fact that there is no incentive to ban broken shit on core classes because it won't give you an advantage over the other team since it gimps both teams.
[quote=springrolls]i absolutely guarantee you if you asked most casual players what's the biggest barrier to entry within competitive tf2, there answer would be either "I can't play my main class full time" or "I don't want to play 5cp all the time" (ignore viaduct), not that their specific unlock is banned.
...
also i challenge u to find a casual scout main who's actually like "oh wow bonk is unbanned now in competitive now i'm going to try it because that one weapon ban was the only thing that was holding me back !!"[/quote]
[/quote]
This is a good point. I think that a big reason that 5CP is so offputting to casual players is that it discourages running non-standard classes due to how fast it is.
Dragon's Fury is strong enough that it'd give Pyros full-time viability, at least at lower levels, without being actually bullshit strong like other unlocks that give a enough of a boost in viability to justify running them (Sydney Sleeper, Jarate, Short Circuit). I know dozens of Pyros who never got into 6s because Pyro was too weak for 6s, Highlander is a terrible, boring gamemode, and Highlander Pyro is the most terrible, boring class in that gamemode. If you assume that every class has a roughly equal number of players, and change the amount of viable full-time classes from four to five, that's a 25% increase in players. That's a sizable difference.
As for the other unlocks, I don't think it's that cut and dry. I think a lenient whitelist makes competitive TF2 less of a leap from pubs. We shouldn't bother with obviously-bullshit stuff like Bonk, but I think that it'd be dangerous to return to a strict medlocks + Gunboats whitelist because it'd make competitive seem intimidating.
[quote]Pushing for a more open whitelist at the expense of competitive players enjoyment of the game doesn't make any sense because in the end you'll still end up banning shit that is absolutely game-breaking but [i]theoretically[/i] may make more classes viable full time like the disciplinary action or wrangler, and this class/map barrier to entry will still exist for newcomers. (note: I am in no way advocating we unban shit that's blatantly broken)[/quote]
I agree with this, but I'd like to make a note that competitive players instinctively dislike all change. Look at how long ETF2L players refused to unban Gunboats, for instance, or how even to this day nobody equips Battalion's Backup even though it's blatantly overpowered. We need to make sure that we're banning things because they're actually overpowered, and actively try to fight that bias against new things so we can make sure that the metagame we have is as good as possible.
The white list will be the bare minimum a white list could be, only banning weapons that are universally agreed to be outright game breaking. If there's any questioning around a weapon being on the white list, keep it unbanned.
With this white list in place, have players or captains quickly decide in the match page or in the server before the game what weapons to ban (Maybe this would give casters something to talk about before matches).
This would allow for flexibility and new play styles to arise while still centering around a loose meta.
It could possibly follow a ban/pick phase such as:
[list]
[*] Global Whitelist
[*] Team A Bans 1
[*] Team B Bans 2
[*] Team A Bans 1
[*] Team A Saves 1
[*] Team B Saves 1
[/list]
or something along those lines.[/quote]
Doesn't work.
If you look at the pick/ban system in Sigafoo cup, they don't touch any broken shit for the core classes, they only ban unlocks based on who has a better Pyro / Engineer. This isn't DOTA where every team is playing a different comp - everyone is running Scout, Soldier, Demo, Medic, and Sniper, and Stock Heavy / Spy are pretty much top tier loadouts so banning is pointless - the only bans that matter are Short Circuit, Wrangler, Gunslinger, Powerjack, Degreaser, Dragon's Fury because they actually cripple the effectiveness of those classes. Pick / ban will not solve the fact that there is no incentive to ban broken shit on core classes because it won't give you an advantage over the other team since it gimps both teams.
[quote=springrolls]i absolutely guarantee you if you asked most casual players what's the biggest barrier to entry within competitive tf2, there answer would be either "I can't play my main class full time" or "I don't want to play 5cp all the time" (ignore viaduct), not that their specific unlock is banned.
...
also i challenge u to find a casual scout main who's actually like "oh wow bonk is unbanned now in competitive now i'm going to try it because that one weapon ban was the only thing that was holding me back !!"[/quote]
[/quote]
This is a good point. I think that a big reason that 5CP is so offputting to casual players is that it discourages running non-standard classes due to how fast it is.
Dragon's Fury is strong enough that it'd give Pyros full-time viability, at least at lower levels, without being actually bullshit strong like other unlocks that give a enough of a boost in viability to justify running them (Sydney Sleeper, Jarate, Short Circuit). I know dozens of Pyros who never got into 6s because Pyro was too weak for 6s, Highlander is a terrible, boring gamemode, and Highlander Pyro is the most terrible, boring class in that gamemode. If you assume that every class has a roughly equal number of players, and change the amount of viable full-time classes from four to five, that's a 25% increase in players. That's a sizable difference.
As for the other unlocks, I don't think it's that cut and dry. I think a lenient whitelist makes competitive TF2 less of a leap from pubs. We shouldn't bother with obviously-bullshit stuff like Bonk, but I think that it'd be dangerous to return to a strict medlocks + Gunboats whitelist because it'd make competitive seem intimidating.
[quote]Pushing for a more open whitelist at the expense of competitive players enjoyment of the game doesn't make any sense because in the end you'll still end up banning shit that is absolutely game-breaking but [i]theoretically[/i] may make more classes viable full time like the disciplinary action or wrangler, and this class/map barrier to entry will still exist for newcomers. (note: I am in no way advocating we unban shit that's blatantly broken)[/quote]
I agree with this, but I'd like to make a note that competitive players instinctively dislike all change. Look at how long ETF2L players refused to unban Gunboats, for instance, or how even to this day nobody equips Battalion's Backup even though it's blatantly overpowered. We need to make sure that we're banning things because they're actually overpowered, and actively try to fight that bias against new things so we can make sure that the metagame we have is as good as possible.
springrollsi absolutely guarantee you if you asked most casual players what's the biggest barrier to entry within competitive tf2, there answer would be either "I can't play my main class full time" or "I don't want to play 5cp all the time"
If that were the real reason there would be a hell of a lot more HL players. Not saying that changing what unlocks are allowed will directly impact the barrier to entry, but we shouldn't give up on making the 6v6 gamemode something that casual players can comprehend and potentially enjoy playing for themselves.
[quote=springrolls]i absolutely guarantee you if you asked most casual players what's the biggest barrier to entry within competitive tf2, there answer would be either "I can't play my main class full time" or "I don't want to play 5cp all the time"
[/quote]
If that were the real reason there would be a hell of a lot more HL players. Not saying that changing what unlocks are allowed will directly impact the barrier to entry, but we shouldn't give up on making the 6v6 gamemode something that casual players can comprehend and potentially enjoy playing for themselves.
[/quote]
If that were the real reason there would be a hell of a lot more HL players. Not saying that changing what unlocks are allowed will directly impact the barrier to entry, but we shouldn't give up on making the 6v6 gamemode something that casual players can comprehend and potentially enjoy playing for themselves.
AszneeMechaCan we only allow Gunboats, Kritzkrieg, and Ubersaw please? It would improve the quality of game play immensely.
haha yes FRICK the people who like to use the winger, the original, the iron bomber and the crossbow. and also frick rollouts with escape plan too
Obviously you could use the original.
The winger is pretty fucking shitty tbh. Even if it has a pretty big drawback, and might be balanced, missing a shot on a scout because he just pulled out the pistol and his trajectory changed is bs. And it also lowers scout's movement skill ceiling a lot.
The iron bomber is also quite shitty as i die to its shitty rollers as much as the directs.
Yes frick the xbow, it heals too much.
Escape plan is cool though, i'm with you on that one.
[quote=Asznee][quote=Mecha]Can we only allow Gunboats, Kritzkrieg, and Ubersaw please? It would improve the quality of game play immensely.[/quote]
haha yes FRICK the people who like to use the winger, the original, the iron bomber and the crossbow. and also frick rollouts with escape plan too[/quote]
Obviously you could use the original.
The winger is pretty fucking shitty tbh. Even if it has a pretty big drawback, and might be balanced, missing a shot on a scout because he just pulled out the pistol and his trajectory changed is bs. And it also lowers scout's movement skill ceiling a lot.
The iron bomber is also quite shitty as i die to its shitty rollers as much as the directs.
Yes frick the xbow, it heals too much.
Escape plan is cool though, i'm with you on that one.
haha yes FRICK the people who like to use the winger, the original, the iron bomber and the crossbow. and also frick rollouts with escape plan too[/quote]
Obviously you could use the original.
The winger is pretty fucking shitty tbh. Even if it has a pretty big drawback, and might be balanced, missing a shot on a scout because he just pulled out the pistol and his trajectory changed is bs. And it also lowers scout's movement skill ceiling a lot.
The iron bomber is also quite shitty as i die to its shitty rollers as much as the directs.
Yes frick the xbow, it heals too much.
Escape plan is cool though, i'm with you on that one.
I honestly don't know where ETF2L found this "72% of people" that want to keep the Dragon's Fury banned, since not only it was banned from basically everything comp-related since its release, but from what I can see here, nobody really knows what to make of it as a whole -- and it makes sense: how could any of us even know what to make of it if the only "competitive" experience we can get out of it is through MGE 1v1s?
Much like many others here, I could make paragraphs worth of theorycrafting about the DF and how it together with the Thruster and the Powerjack could make the Pyro almost exactly as good of a Roamer as a Soldier, if not an even better Roamer, but as it currently stands in here, the debate for/against it is just too controversial for the DF to stay banned without even so much as a sliver of actual comp experience to back it up.
I honestly don't know where ETF2L found this "72% of people" that want to keep the Dragon's Fury banned, since not only it was banned from basically everything comp-related since its release, but from what I can see here, nobody really knows what to make of it as a whole -- and it makes sense: how could any of us even know what to make of it if the only "competitive" experience we can get out of it is through MGE 1v1s?
Much like many others here, I could make paragraphs worth of theorycrafting about the DF and how it together with the Thruster and the Powerjack could make the Pyro almost exactly as good of a Roamer as a Soldier, if not an even better Roamer, but as it currently stands in here, the debate for/against it is just too controversial for the DF to stay banned without even so much as a sliver of actual comp experience to back it up.
Much like many others here, I could make paragraphs worth of theorycrafting about the DF and how it together with the Thruster and the Powerjack could make the Pyro almost exactly as good of a Roamer as a Soldier, if not an even better Roamer, but as it currently stands in here, the debate for/against it is just too controversial for the DF to stay banned without even so much as a sliver of actual comp experience to back it up.
ymRaisinIf that were the real reason there would be a hell of a lot more HL players.
There are. (EDIT: BAD GRAPH, LOOK BELOW FOR BETTER GRAPH)
This is team count, not player count, so make the Highlander graph 50% higher.
Highlander isn't a terrible gamemode just because it allows every class. It's a terrible gamemode because it forces you to play your class even when your class is fucking shit (Spy, Pyro, Heavy, Engineer), too many players means that most classes cannot create advantages large enough to push on (which makes the game slow as fuck), the Wrangler (which is utter bullshit) is unbanned because 1/9 of the playerbase would be completely useless without it (which makes the game slower), and full-time Sniper discourages pushing because it fucking kills everything at every range, especially because a Highlander team comp is better at protecting a Sniper than pressuring one. Also, Jarate and Mad Milk are unbanned for some reason I cannot fathom, they are easy to use, you get them for free, and they can completely stuff pushes by themselves while disproportionately punishing the aggressive team (since you have to cluster to walk through the choke).
Also, pushing the cart is boring as fuck.
Allowing class switching, bringing the player count from 18 to 12, not playing Payload, and banning fucking Milk and Jarate because they're blatantly overpowered fixes all of these issues.
[quote=ymRaisin]If that were the real reason there would be a hell of a lot more HL players.[/quote]
There are. (EDIT: BAD GRAPH, LOOK BELOW FOR BETTER GRAPH)
[img]https://cdn-enterprise.discourse.org/waypoint/uploads/default/original/2X/5/5b0bb2ef30904410c2d1a928182e46ef5c27a191.png[/img]
This is team count, not player count, so make the Highlander graph 50% higher.
Highlander isn't a terrible gamemode just because it allows every class. It's a terrible gamemode because it forces you to play your class even when your class is fucking shit (Spy, Pyro, Heavy, Engineer), too many players means that most classes cannot create advantages large enough to push on (which makes the game slow as fuck), the Wrangler (which is utter bullshit) is unbanned because 1/9 of the playerbase would be completely useless without it (which makes the game slower), and full-time Sniper discourages pushing because it fucking kills everything at every range, especially because a Highlander team comp is better at protecting a Sniper than pressuring one. Also, Jarate and Mad Milk are unbanned for some reason I cannot fathom, they are easy to use, you get them for free, and they can completely stuff pushes by themselves while disproportionately punishing the aggressive team (since you have to cluster to walk through the choke).
Also, pushing the cart is boring as fuck.
Allowing class switching, bringing the player count from 18 to 12, not playing Payload, and banning fucking Milk and Jarate because they're blatantly overpowered fixes all of these issues.
There are. (EDIT: BAD GRAPH, LOOK BELOW FOR BETTER GRAPH)
[img]https://cdn-enterprise.discourse.org/waypoint/uploads/default/original/2X/5/5b0bb2ef30904410c2d1a928182e46ef5c27a191.png[/img]
This is team count, not player count, so make the Highlander graph 50% higher.
Highlander isn't a terrible gamemode just because it allows every class. It's a terrible gamemode because it forces you to play your class even when your class is fucking shit (Spy, Pyro, Heavy, Engineer), too many players means that most classes cannot create advantages large enough to push on (which makes the game slow as fuck), the Wrangler (which is utter bullshit) is unbanned because 1/9 of the playerbase would be completely useless without it (which makes the game slower), and full-time Sniper discourages pushing because it fucking kills everything at every range, especially because a Highlander team comp is better at protecting a Sniper than pressuring one. Also, Jarate and Mad Milk are unbanned for some reason I cannot fathom, they are easy to use, you get them for free, and they can completely stuff pushes by themselves while disproportionately punishing the aggressive team (since you have to cluster to walk through the choke).
Also, pushing the cart is boring as fuck.
Allowing class switching, bringing the player count from 18 to 12, not playing Payload, and banning fucking Milk and Jarate because they're blatantly overpowered fixes all of these issues.
4812622
I agree with you that HL is an inferior gamemode, although unfortunately the average casual player doesn't know that. I should say that that graph is extremely misleading since you're comparing the number of teams in a free league that encompasses practically all of NAHL with the number of teams in a pay-to-enter league that does not encompass all of NA 6s (there are plenty of teams that play UGC 6s or other free leagues but not ESEA). There is not really a big difference between the number of 6s players and the number of HL players in tf2.
[quote=4812622][/quote]
I agree with you that HL is an inferior gamemode, although unfortunately the average casual player doesn't know that. I should say that that graph is extremely misleading since you're comparing the number of teams in a free league that encompasses practically all of NAHL with the number of teams in a pay-to-enter league that does not encompass all of NA 6s (there are plenty of teams that play UGC 6s or other free leagues but not ESEA). There is not really a big difference between the number of 6s players and the number of HL players in tf2.
I agree with you that HL is an inferior gamemode, although unfortunately the average casual player doesn't know that. I should say that that graph is extremely misleading since you're comparing the number of teams in a free league that encompasses practically all of NAHL with the number of teams in a pay-to-enter league that does not encompass all of NA 6s (there are plenty of teams that play UGC 6s or other free leagues but not ESEA). There is not really a big difference between the number of 6s players and the number of HL players in tf2.
aurahso you're saying the balance change blog was aimed at pubbers and was just for them all this time?
vipergive candy to the crying baby
[quote=aurah]so you're saying the balance change blog was aimed at pubbers and was just for them all this time?[/quote]
[quote=viper]give candy to the crying baby[/quote]
[quote=viper]give candy to the crying baby[/quote]
ymRaisin4812622I agree with you that HL is an inferior gamemode, although unfortunately the average casual player doesn't know that. I should say that that graph is extremely misleading since you're comparing the number of teams in a free league that encompasses practically all of NAHL with the number of teams in a pay-to-enter league that does not encompass all of NA 6s (there are plenty of teams that play UGC 6s or other free leagues but not ESEA). There is not really a big difference between the number of 6s players and the number of HL players in tf2.
You're right that the graph is fucked. My bad. I found the UGC 6s data and we'll see how it matches.
EDIT:
https://i.imgur.com/gggOvIN.jpg
This graph is players, not teams.
Keep in mind, this doesn't factor out ESEA + UGC duplicates, so the playercount for 6s should be slightly lower than it is.
[quote=ymRaisin][quote=4812622][/quote]
I agree with you that HL is an inferior gamemode, although unfortunately the average casual player doesn't know that. I should say that that graph is extremely misleading since you're comparing the number of teams in a free league that encompasses practically all of NAHL with the number of teams in a pay-to-enter league that does not encompass all of NA 6s (there are plenty of teams that play UGC 6s or other free leagues but not ESEA). There is not really a big difference between the number of 6s players and the number of HL players in tf2.[/quote]
You're right that the graph is fucked. My bad. I found the UGC 6s data and we'll see how it matches.
EDIT: [img]https://i.imgur.com/gggOvIN.jpg[/img]
This graph is players, not teams.
Keep in mind, this doesn't factor out ESEA + UGC duplicates, so the playercount for 6s should be slightly lower than it is.
I agree with you that HL is an inferior gamemode, although unfortunately the average casual player doesn't know that. I should say that that graph is extremely misleading since you're comparing the number of teams in a free league that encompasses practically all of NAHL with the number of teams in a pay-to-enter league that does not encompass all of NA 6s (there are plenty of teams that play UGC 6s or other free leagues but not ESEA). There is not really a big difference between the number of 6s players and the number of HL players in tf2.[/quote]
You're right that the graph is fucked. My bad. I found the UGC 6s data and we'll see how it matches.
EDIT: [img]https://i.imgur.com/gggOvIN.jpg[/img]
This graph is players, not teams.
Keep in mind, this doesn't factor out ESEA + UGC duplicates, so the playercount for 6s should be slightly lower than it is.
KredibleUse a weapon pick/ban phase
The white list will be the bare minimum a white list could be, only banning weapons that are universally agreed to be outright game breaking. If there's any questioning around a weapon being on the white list, keep it unbanned.
With this white list in place, have players or captains quickly decide in the match page or in the server before the game what weapons to ban (Maybe this would give casters something to talk about before matches).
This would allow for flexibility and new play styles to arise while still centering around a loose meta.
It could possibly follow a ban/pick phase such as:or something along those lines.
- Global Whitelist
- Team A Bans 1
- Team B Bans 2
- Team A Bans 1
- Team A Saves 1
- Team B Saves 1
this might be the worst thing in this thread
[quote=Kredible][u][b]Use a weapon pick/ban phase[/b][/u]
The white list will be the bare minimum a white list could be, only banning weapons that are universally agreed to be outright game breaking. If there's any questioning around a weapon being on the white list, keep it unbanned.
With this white list in place, have players or captains quickly decide in the match page or in the server before the game what weapons to ban (Maybe this would give casters something to talk about before matches).
This would allow for flexibility and new play styles to arise while still centering around a loose meta.
It could possibly follow a ban/pick phase such as:
[list]
[*] Global Whitelist
[*] Team A Bans 1
[*] Team B Bans 2
[*] Team A Bans 1
[*] Team A Saves 1
[*] Team B Saves 1
[/list]
or something along those lines.[/quote]
this might be the worst thing in this thread
The white list will be the bare minimum a white list could be, only banning weapons that are universally agreed to be outright game breaking. If there's any questioning around a weapon being on the white list, keep it unbanned.
With this white list in place, have players or captains quickly decide in the match page or in the server before the game what weapons to ban (Maybe this would give casters something to talk about before matches).
This would allow for flexibility and new play styles to arise while still centering around a loose meta.
It could possibly follow a ban/pick phase such as:
[list]
[*] Global Whitelist
[*] Team A Bans 1
[*] Team B Bans 2
[*] Team A Bans 1
[*] Team A Saves 1
[*] Team B Saves 1
[/list]
or something along those lines.[/quote]
this might be the worst thing in this thread
Maybe I'm misinterpreting, but the way the reasoning behind these decisions is worded to me gives off the impression that the only goal is to preserve the current metagame. For example, the Panic Attack is unbanned because "it still isn't a standout weapon" and "does worse than shotgun in most cases". Does that mean then that if it ended up being better than shotgun it'd be banned?
I hope I am misinterpreting, because it'd be a pretty conservative and inconsistent direction to go in, however I find it hard to believe that I am, given that this seems to be the logic used for banning The Dragon's Fury also. For consistency's sake, using this logic would mean you'd have to ban previously introduced weapons like The Escape Plan, for example.
b4nnyAt this point, only game breaking items should be banned
Define "game breaking".
-protosomeone needs to setup a site where players can vote for what should be banned and allowed. It’s the only way to make fair decisions on so many weapons/items. a few people should not be able to change the global whitelist overnight and THEN ask for feedback that they could easily just ignore.
I don't think there's really a robust way of giving direct democracy to all "players".
Maybe I'm misinterpreting, but the way the reasoning behind these decisions is worded to me gives off the impression that the only goal is to preserve the current metagame. For example, the Panic Attack is unbanned because "it still isn't a standout weapon" and "does worse than shotgun in most cases". Does that mean then that if it ended up being better than shotgun it'd be banned?
I hope I am misinterpreting, because it'd be a pretty conservative and inconsistent direction to go in, however I find it hard to believe that I am, given that this seems to be the logic used for banning The Dragon's Fury also. For consistency's sake, using this logic would mean you'd have to ban previously introduced weapons like The Escape Plan, for example.
[quote=b4nny]At this point, only game breaking items should be banned[/quote]
Define "game breaking".
[quote=-proto]someone needs to setup a site where players can vote for what should be banned and allowed. It’s the only way to make fair decisions on so many weapons/items. a few people should not be able to change the global whitelist overnight and THEN ask for feedback that they could easily just ignore.[/quote]
I don't think there's really a robust way of giving direct democracy to all "players".
I hope I am misinterpreting, because it'd be a pretty conservative and inconsistent direction to go in, however I find it hard to believe that I am, given that this seems to be the logic used for banning The Dragon's Fury also. For consistency's sake, using this logic would mean you'd have to ban previously introduced weapons like The Escape Plan, for example.
[quote=b4nny]At this point, only game breaking items should be banned[/quote]
Define "game breaking".
[quote=-proto]someone needs to setup a site where players can vote for what should be banned and allowed. It’s the only way to make fair decisions on so many weapons/items. a few people should not be able to change the global whitelist overnight and THEN ask for feedback that they could easily just ignore.[/quote]
I don't think there's really a robust way of giving direct democracy to all "players".
Why must we make playing competitive more annoying just because some weapons aren't op, trying to suck Valve's dick or get nonexistent players that don't exist and won't join any of these leagues by these retarded whitelist changes? I can't wait for what Valve next has on their mind, probably they think scout is underpowered and needs 200% speed buff, and heavy needs a 420% overheal to compensate his obesity and fat-shaming.
Why must we make playing competitive more annoying just because some weapons aren't op, trying to suck Valve's dick or get nonexistent players that don't exist and won't join any of these leagues by these retarded whitelist changes? I can't wait for what Valve next has on their mind, probably they think scout is underpowered and needs 200% speed buff, and heavy needs a 420% overheal to compensate his obesity and fat-shaming.
This'll be unpopular but I say leave the general public out of the decision.
Have a testing period as you are, but then after this is over get a single representitive from the top 4 Invite teams and the top 4 prem teams from last season and give each team 1 vote per unlock. Up to you what happens in a tie, maybe a community vote, maybe a discussion followed by a revote, maybe default banned, maybe admin's call.
It just makes sense to me that the players who can play the game the best should be able to make the best decisions about the game, and I think by including the top 4 teams of each major region, you get a diverse enough pool of opinions to represent the whole of the community.
This'll be unpopular but I say leave the general public out of the decision.
Have a testing period as you are, but then after this is over get a single representitive from the top 4 Invite teams and the top 4 prem teams from last season and give each team 1 vote per unlock. Up to you what happens in a tie, maybe a community vote, maybe a discussion followed by a revote, maybe default banned, maybe admin's call.
It just makes sense to me that the players who can play the game the best should be able to make the best decisions about the game, and I think by including the top 4 teams of each major region, you get a diverse enough pool of opinions to represent the whole of the community.
Have a testing period as you are, but then after this is over get a single representitive from the top 4 Invite teams and the top 4 prem teams from last season and give each team 1 vote per unlock. Up to you what happens in a tie, maybe a community vote, maybe a discussion followed by a revote, maybe default banned, maybe admin's call.
It just makes sense to me that the players who can play the game the best should be able to make the best decisions about the game, and I think by including the top 4 teams of each major region, you get a diverse enough pool of opinions to represent the whole of the community.
springrollsi absolutely guarantee you if you asked most casual players what's the biggest barrier to entry within competitive tf2, there answer would be either "I can't play my main class full time" or "I don't want to play 5cp all the time" (ignore viaduct)
Agreed, although their first response might be "there are TF2 leagues?". Research into TF2 player activity has shown that the most popular maps that bear any resemblance to the "proper" game mode are ones like 2Fort. Bizarre gamemodes like low-grav cp_orange have far more players than any competitive format. This is without looking at how many people are just trading and don't even play the game. By contrast CS players play 99% defuse maps competitive game mode, directly relevant to the competitive game.
The casual community is so massively fractured across so many different maps and game modes it's impossible to adapt the competitive game into a relevant format without it becoming a total meme fest. Which week is vs Saxton Hale?
I really think the competitive community is best served by trying to stick to what is the most fun way to play and stop worrying about the public appeal of the format, there is no magic format that suddenly makes casual players care because they will never care. It's just the wrong game for it, not because it's not a high skill ceiling hard core shooter at heart, but because the development direction has been completely anti-competitive for 10 years and they are never going to reverse that trend.
[quote=springrolls]i absolutely guarantee you if you asked most casual players what's the biggest barrier to entry within competitive tf2, there answer would be either "I can't play my main class full time" or "I don't want to play 5cp all the time" (ignore viaduct)[/quote]
Agreed, although their first response might be "there are TF2 leagues?". Research into TF2 player activity has shown that the most popular maps that bear any resemblance to the "proper" game mode are ones like 2Fort. Bizarre gamemodes like low-grav cp_orange have far more players than any competitive format. This is without looking at how many people are just trading and don't even play the game. By contrast CS players play 99% defuse maps competitive game mode, directly relevant to the competitive game.
The casual community is so massively fractured across so many different maps and game modes it's impossible to adapt the competitive game into a relevant format without it becoming a total meme fest. Which week is vs Saxton Hale?
I really think the competitive community is best served by trying to stick to what is the most fun way to play and stop worrying about the public appeal of the format, there is no magic format that suddenly makes casual players care because they will never care. It's just the wrong game for it, not because it's not a high skill ceiling hard core shooter at heart, but because the development direction has been completely anti-competitive for 10 years and they are never going to reverse that trend.
Agreed, although their first response might be "there are TF2 leagues?". Research into TF2 player activity has shown that the most popular maps that bear any resemblance to the "proper" game mode are ones like 2Fort. Bizarre gamemodes like low-grav cp_orange have far more players than any competitive format. This is without looking at how many people are just trading and don't even play the game. By contrast CS players play 99% defuse maps competitive game mode, directly relevant to the competitive game.
The casual community is so massively fractured across so many different maps and game modes it's impossible to adapt the competitive game into a relevant format without it becoming a total meme fest. Which week is vs Saxton Hale?
I really think the competitive community is best served by trying to stick to what is the most fun way to play and stop worrying about the public appeal of the format, there is no magic format that suddenly makes casual players care because they will never care. It's just the wrong game for it, not because it's not a high skill ceiling hard core shooter at heart, but because the development direction has been completely anti-competitive for 10 years and they are never going to reverse that trend.
the best thing we can do is raise awareness and promote 6s to the casual community so that we pick up likeminded people. the guys who enjoy playing friendly sandvich heavy on ctf_turbine will not play competitive even if we made spy viable fulltime.
we'll get a lot further by just making a fun gamemode for some people than trying to appeal to everyone.
the best thing we can do is raise awareness and promote 6s to the casual community so that we pick up likeminded people. the guys who enjoy playing friendly sandvich heavy on ctf_turbine will not play competitive even if we made spy viable fulltime.
we'll get a lot further by just making a fun gamemode for some people than trying to appeal to everyone.
we'll get a lot further by just making a fun gamemode for some people than trying to appeal to everyone.
In case of attracting more players, making other classes more viable is prob the best way, but this won't solve everything becausr
- Lots of casual players would still not be interested for more competitive gameplay, no matter how viable their specilialist main class is
- We are not able to unban weapons to make class viable alongside giving then stalling/annoying gimmick (I.E Engie's Rescue Ranger and Heavy's natascha)
The cause of this is because both of these classes are defensive and their unlocks enforce this, which is not ideal for fast paced and skillful gameplay. Luckily with Gunslinger Valve could rework it and make engie more of a support class instead of pure defensive.
In short, we cannot do much, it's on Valve's hand to change Engie and Heavy more viable in fast paced 6s, but considering it's valve I don't think there would be those changes :(
In case of attracting more players, making other classes more viable is prob the best way, but this won't solve everything becausr
[list]
[*]Lots of casual players would still not be interested for more competitive gameplay, no matter how viable their specilialist main class is
[*]We are not able to unban weapons to make class viable alongside giving then stalling/annoying gimmick (I.E Engie's Rescue Ranger and Heavy's natascha)
[/list]
The cause of this is because both of these classes are defensive and their unlocks enforce this, which is not ideal for fast paced and skillful gameplay. Luckily with Gunslinger Valve could rework it and make engie more of a support class instead of pure defensive.
In short, we cannot do much, it's on Valve's hand to change Engie and Heavy more viable in fast paced 6s, but considering it's valve I don't think there would be those changes :(
[list]
[*]Lots of casual players would still not be interested for more competitive gameplay, no matter how viable their specilialist main class is
[*]We are not able to unban weapons to make class viable alongside giving then stalling/annoying gimmick (I.E Engie's Rescue Ranger and Heavy's natascha)
[/list]
The cause of this is because both of these classes are defensive and their unlocks enforce this, which is not ideal for fast paced and skillful gameplay. Luckily with Gunslinger Valve could rework it and make engie more of a support class instead of pure defensive.
In short, we cannot do much, it's on Valve's hand to change Engie and Heavy more viable in fast paced 6s, but considering it's valve I don't think there would be those changes :(
So how many season has it been now since this idea of unbanning everything will encourage people to play comp tf2?
Numbers for leagues are still declining and fucking no one plays the actual matchmaking game mode. This whole if we unban the engie/pyro/heavy/spy will make the people who main those want to play 6s is just ridiculous. The game mode itself makes these classes pointless. Engie will get run over by everything, spy is easily counterable if u actually pay attention to the game, pyro will get run over by coordinated scouts. The argument for heavy might be there as there has been some success with muuki running it to mids but even then you can deal with it with some simple coordination.
People just dont wanna play competitive. How is this so hard to realise. Please just fucking give up with this bullshit as the numbers arent going to rise to where it actually means something. We are always going to be a small community. Tf2 is never ever ever going to be like dota/cs/lol/ow.
Can we just enjoy what we have and have a non aids whitelist?
So how many season has it been now since this idea of unbanning everything will encourage people to play comp tf2?
Numbers for leagues are still declining and fucking no one plays the actual matchmaking game mode. This whole if we unban the engie/pyro/heavy/spy will make the people who main those want to play 6s is just ridiculous. The game mode itself makes these classes pointless. Engie will get run over by everything, spy is easily counterable if u actually pay attention to the game, pyro will get run over by coordinated scouts. The argument for heavy might be there as there has been some success with muuki running it to mids but even then you can deal with it with some simple coordination.
People just dont wanna play competitive. How is this so hard to realise. Please just fucking give up with this bullshit as the numbers arent going to rise to where it actually means something. We are always going to be a small community. Tf2 is never ever ever going to be like dota/cs/lol/ow.
Can we just enjoy what we have and have a non aids whitelist?
Numbers for leagues are still declining and fucking no one plays the actual matchmaking game mode. This whole if we unban the engie/pyro/heavy/spy will make the people who main those want to play 6s is just ridiculous. The game mode itself makes these classes pointless. Engie will get run over by everything, spy is easily counterable if u actually pay attention to the game, pyro will get run over by coordinated scouts. The argument for heavy might be there as there has been some success with muuki running it to mids but even then you can deal with it with some simple coordination.
People just dont wanna play competitive. How is this so hard to realise. Please just fucking give up with this bullshit as the numbers arent going to rise to where it actually means something. We are always going to be a small community. Tf2 is never ever ever going to be like dota/cs/lol/ow.
Can we just enjoy what we have and have a non aids whitelist?
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