balance problems :
flamethrower does way too much damage for how much you aim (you literally don't have to)
gaying a pyro on scout even with 2 often takes way too long and more often than not you just have to be able to hit him with 90% acc which top invite players can which is why the class isn't permanently ran there
also you can "counter" pyro by shooting rockets at him, just be far enough away that you can dodge and have 2 people shoots rockets at him but that doesn't mean you're gonna do it
dragon's fury is trash and irrelevant
detonator is actually amazing, it doesn't put a lot of damage onto 1 person, no, but you can repeatedly light 6 people on fire from range basically deleting buffs over the course of a spam fight. with detonator and airblast you can actually run pyro on maps like sunshine and granary and the class is actually just better than soldier at spamming on viaduct. The item may actually be op, but it's subtle at this point
root of the problem:
the class is not fun to play against
hitpunch on flame is awful and should be removed also except when zoomed on sniper
afterburn damage should be capped so when you've been lit you can reasonably predict how much damage you're gonna take instead of seemingly randomly burning for some ridiculous amount of time
you can't see a pyro when they're shooting at you usually, tf2 is really good at visibility except when it comes to pyro
I don't think people actually have a problem with a class being "viable" but the problem is that the class doesn't fit with the rest of the design of the game and is insanely frustrating and not fun to play against so that issue needs to be fixed more urgently then "balance" honestly
nerfing pyro just also fixes that issue tho
balance problems :
flamethrower does way too much damage for how much you aim (you literally don't have to)
gaying a pyro on scout even with 2 often takes way too long and more often than not you just have to be able to hit him with 90% acc which top invite players can which is why the class isn't permanently ran there
also you can "counter" pyro by shooting rockets at him, just be far enough away that you can dodge and have 2 people shoots rockets at him but that doesn't mean you're gonna do it
dragon's fury is trash and irrelevant
detonator is actually amazing, it doesn't put a lot of damage onto 1 person, no, but you can repeatedly light 6 people on fire from range basically deleting buffs over the course of a spam fight. with detonator and airblast you can actually run pyro on maps like sunshine and granary and the class is actually just better than soldier at spamming on viaduct. The item may actually be op, but it's subtle at this point
root of the problem:
the class is not fun to play against
hitpunch on flame is awful and should be removed also except when zoomed on sniper
afterburn damage should be capped so when you've been lit you can reasonably predict how much damage you're gonna take instead of seemingly randomly burning for some ridiculous amount of time
you can't see a pyro when they're shooting at you usually, tf2 is really good at visibility except when it comes to pyro
I don't think people actually have a problem with a class being "viable" but the problem is that the class doesn't fit with the rest of the design of the game and is insanely frustrating and not fun to play against so that issue needs to be fixed more urgently then "balance" honestly
nerfing pyro just also fixes that issue tho
botmodeMacIf only we had some sort of whitelist to ban broken/annoying unlocks like the detonator or the scorch shot.
if the class can melt every class in the game in under 2 seconds while not aiming there probably isn't just something wrong with 2 unlocks
I don't disagree, but at the same time giving pyro the ability to spam on top of that is just silly. We can at least nerf him somewhat ourselves by removing unlocks, instead of just hoping valve does something about it within a reasonable timeframe which is never going to happen.
[quote=botmode][quote=Mac]If only we had some sort of whitelist to ban broken/annoying unlocks like the detonator or the scorch shot.[/quote]
if the class can melt every class in the game in under 2 seconds while not aiming there probably isn't just something wrong with 2 unlocks[/quote]
I don't disagree, but at the same time giving pyro the ability to spam on top of that is just silly. We can at least nerf him somewhat ourselves by removing unlocks, instead of just hoping valve does something about it within a reasonable timeframe which is never going to happen.
just remove pyro in general
movement restriction has no place in a game like tf2
just remove pyro in general
movement restriction has no place in a game like tf2
Make Flamethrower act more like the lightning gun from quake- actually requires you to aim it, and in compensation has longer range (though still counts as a short-ranged weapon)
also give pyro an airblast jump and nerf the powerjack, there, class is fixed permanently
Make Flamethrower act more like the lightning gun from quake- actually requires you to aim it, and in compensation has longer range (though still counts as a short-ranged weapon)
also give pyro an airblast jump and nerf the powerjack, there, class is fixed permanently
Can people fuck off with the give pyro an LG thing already, honest to god the single most retarded idea I've seen come out of this community like christ get yourselves back to reddit.
Can people fuck off with the give pyro an LG thing already, honest to god the single most retarded idea I've seen come out of this community like christ get yourselves back to reddit.
On product this class really shouldn't be a problem.There is so many ways and opportunities to work around an enemy pyro on product I honestly can't believe this is used as an example to spark a discussion about the class again.
I do agree that the pyro is slightly overpowered though. I could go into detail why the class is broken on 5CP, however it is enough to point out that the only thing making this class unbalanced in 6s is the heal beam. Look at Olghas heal stats. This class wouldn't work in the way he plays it, if it wasn't for the beam constantly on him.
Now, if you really want to fix this problem without valve because of one dude playing this class permanently, you either adapt to it by actually trying to abuse the disadvantages of having a beam pyro or you enforce the usage of the backscratcher so a tanky, waddling space-maker can't happen in the first place.
On product this class really shouldn't be a problem.There is so many ways and opportunities to work around an enemy pyro on product I honestly can't believe this is used as an example to spark a discussion about the class again.
I do agree that the pyro is slightly overpowered though. I could go into detail why the class is broken on 5CP, however it is enough to point out that the only thing making this class unbalanced in 6s is the heal beam. Look at Olghas heal stats. This class wouldn't work in the way he plays it, if it wasn't for the beam constantly on him.
Now, if you really want to fix this problem without valve because of one dude playing this class permanently, you either adapt to it by actually trying to abuse the disadvantages of having a beam pyro or you enforce the usage of the backscratcher so a tanky, waddling space-maker can't happen in the first place.
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTSGcdoJcCg[/youtube]
fraglandsalso give pyro an airblast jump
This was a mod in some community servers years ago, was pretty fun
GrapeJuiceIIIyahooalso imo the new airblast is inconsistant af atm. its both aids to play against it and to use it because you never know whats gonna happen. the old one was better both for the pyro and the enemy.
^ let me airstrafe please
they even said in the patch notes that new airblast would let you keep aircontrol but it really doesnt
also flamethrower direct damage blocks healing about 80%, not 20% like it said in the patch notes (this is pre jungle inferno but still)
[quote=fraglands]also give pyro an airblast jump[/quote]
This was a mod in some community servers years ago, was pretty fun
[quote=GrapeJuiceIII][quote=yahoo]
also imo the new airblast is inconsistant af atm. its both aids to play against it and to use it because you never know whats gonna happen. the old one was better both for the pyro and the enemy.[/quote]
^ let me airstrafe please[/quote]
they even said in the patch notes that new airblast would let you keep aircontrol but it really doesnt
also flamethrower direct damage blocks healing about 80%, not 20% like it said in the patch notes (this is pre jungle inferno but still)
airblast is such an awful mechanic i wish they never added it in the first place
huge fucking cone & spammable with only a .75s delay and still doesn't let you airstrafe
and why does it even minicrit. just being able to reflect projetiles is already so good
airblast is such an awful mechanic i wish they never added it in the first place
huge fucking cone & spammable with only a .75s delay and still doesn't let you airstrafe
and why does it even minicrit. just being able to reflect projetiles is already so good
lightning gun will never happen, too much of a change for valve to consider.
People could use detonator or scorch before this update and pad their damage stats as much as they wanted. The reason why pyro is usable now and wasn't before is the primary, entirely. You used to have flamethrowers which did fairly inconsistent damage and shorter, variable range, so that you pretty much relied on having a degreaser and a quick burst from a flare or shotgun to get kills.
Post-update, flames have technically the same damage but they're literally unmissable, resulting in higher damage output overall (especially against crowds if you shake your mouse enough), they have better range, they linger on targets after you stop looking at them, slide off walls or the ground, it's a huge mess. Basically the flamethrower is super reliable at getting kills within its range now, and that means you pretty much don't need a secondary in close range... so you can use that slot to equip something that gives you reliable damage at longer range.
Fix the flames and pyro maybe won't be great, but it will be manageable I think. Problem is if it hasn't happened by now, I imagine it's because Valve are focusing their little TF2 resources into the matchmaking update so we could end up stuck with this pyro for a long time
lightning gun will never happen, too much of a change for valve to consider.
People could use detonator or scorch before this update and pad their damage stats as much as they wanted. The reason why pyro is usable now and wasn't before is the primary, entirely. You used to have flamethrowers which did fairly inconsistent damage and shorter, variable range, so that you pretty much relied on having a degreaser and a quick burst from a flare or shotgun to get kills.
Post-update, flames have technically the same damage but they're literally unmissable, resulting in higher damage output overall (especially against crowds if you shake your mouse enough), they have better range, they linger on targets after you stop looking at them, slide off walls or the ground, it's a huge mess. Basically the flamethrower is super reliable at getting kills within its range now, and that means you pretty much don't need a secondary in close range... so you can use that slot to equip something that gives you reliable damage at longer range.
Fix the flames and pyro maybe won't be great, but it will be manageable I think. Problem is if it hasn't happened by now, I imagine it's because Valve are focusing their little TF2 resources into the matchmaking update so we could end up stuck with this pyro for a long time
Just so everyone knows according to the wiki the flamethrower dps was doubled after the update, but this change was not in the patch notes as far as I know: https://i.imgur.com/ksATXBs.png
Just so everyone knows according to the wiki the flamethrower dps was doubled after the update, but this change was not in the patch notes as far as I know: https://i.imgur.com/ksATXBs.png
that ain't true. the damage per particle was increased but since they only count damage 12 times a second the overall DPS was kept more or less the same. Truth is pre-jungle inferno pyro was already capable of this sort of damage but because of mojo issues and requiring a bit of tracking you couldn't achieve it in the same way you do now
that ain't true. the damage per particle was increased but since they only count damage 12 times a second the overall DPS was kept more or less the same. Truth is pre-jungle inferno pyro was already capable of this sort of damage but because of mojo issues and requiring a bit of tracking you couldn't achieve it in the same way you do now
flame particles have significant current issues, one being that they have infinite penetration. fire at the far edge of the cone lingers and can hit multiple times on the same person. if you walk into invis lingering particles thats 80+ damage
flame particles have significant current issues, one being that they have infinite penetration. fire at the far edge of the cone lingers and can hit multiple times on the same person. if you walk into invis lingering particles thats 80+ damage
just make pyro that way it was in 2013
just make pyro that way it was in 2013
You know the sort of sad thing about the pyro changes is that it isn't as though they half assed them; an exorbitant amount of time and effort that went into creating the new flame particles and airblast hitboxes, but despite all that work the changes still fucking suck
You know the sort of sad thing about the pyro changes is that it isn't as though they half assed them; an exorbitant amount of time and effort that went into creating the new flame particles and airblast hitboxes, but despite all that work the changes still fucking suck
maybe valve made pyro even less fun to play against so that we will be happy when they revert it
im genus? Yah
maybe valve made pyro even less fun to play against so that we will be happy when they revert it
im genus? Yah
Makpyro should be class limit 0 until valve give the community some sort of dialogue.
[quote=Mak]pyro should be class limit 0 until valve give the community some sort of dialogue.[/quote]
4hplightning gun will never happen, too much of a change for valve to consider.
i could see it being added as a primary unlock
[quote=4hp]lightning gun will never happen, too much of a change for valve to consider. [/quote]
i could see it being added as a primary unlock
after that whole entire year valve spent crafting this masterpiece i could see them reworking that entire thing to the lightning gun during tf2's life span
after that whole entire year valve spent crafting this masterpiece i could see them reworking that entire thing to the lightning gun during tf2's life span
Class limit 0 indeed please. Honestly we might get rid of this unable to push last theory without pyro. And like thats not enough the class melts people on the healbeam in a second. It has soo much room to fail with and still get free kills. Doesnt matter if you cant aim as long as you can look in the general direction of people, hell even do sensitivity 50 and as soon as you see someone shake your mouse.
I agree with clockwork, this class has no place in competetive. It doesnt make sense. It's beyond me that barely anyone is abusing this yet.
/end of rant
Class limit 0 indeed please. Honestly we might get rid of this unable to push last theory without pyro. And like thats not enough the class melts people on the healbeam in a second. It has soo much room to fail with and still get free kills. Doesnt matter if you cant aim as long as you can look in the general direction of people, hell even do sensitivity 50 and as soon as you see someone shake your mouse.
I agree with clockwork, this class has no place in competetive. It doesnt make sense. It's beyond me that barely anyone is abusing this yet.
/end of rant
[quote=wtz]Give demo a glock[/quote]
[img]https://i.gyazo.com/3532f2879017dd5fdc58b8ed8ebbf078.png[/img]
DouganYou know the sort of sad thing about the pyro changes is that it isn't as though they half assed them; an exorbitant amount of time and effort that went into creating the new flame particles and airblast hitboxes, but despite all that work the changes still fucking suck
Most of the changes from the update were good ideas, but a few key implementation errors ruin everything to the point where it's worse than before.
[quote=Dougan]You know the sort of sad thing about the pyro changes is that it isn't as though they half assed them; an exorbitant amount of time and effort that went into creating the new flame particles and airblast hitboxes, but despite all that work the changes still fucking suck[/quote]
Most of the changes from the update were good ideas, but a few key implementation errors ruin everything to the point where it's worse than before.
i think y'all are just mad my boy pyro maniac can frag the shit out of you and u complain about it here i think he ROCKS
i think y'all are just mad my boy pyro maniac can frag the shit out of you and u complain about it here i think he ROCKS
letting me airstrafe after getting airblasted doesn't change the fact that it's impossible to shoot projectiles at the FUCKER
letting me airstrafe after getting airblasted doesn't change the fact that it's impossible to shoot projectiles at the FUCKER
yesterday i was playing harvest and a pyro killed me whilst i was standing in front of the health cabinent no crits just standard flames whilst i was constantly regen health back. it takes like 1 flame particle to get me from 125 to like 70
yesterday i was playing harvest and a pyro killed me whilst i was standing in front of the health cabinent no crits just standard flames whilst i was constantly regen health back. it takes like 1 flame particle to get me from 125 to like 70
4hplightning gun will never happen, too much of a change for valve to consider.
I mean, you could have said that about them changing Pyro into schizophrenic waggling mode as well, but they did it anyway.
I don't think it's too much to ask for a lightning-gun-like Flamethrower when most people agree it would solve the problem.
[quote=4hp]lightning gun will never happen, too much of a change for valve to consider.[/quote]
I mean, you could have said that about them changing Pyro into schizophrenic waggling mode as well, but they did it anyway.
I don't think it's too much to ask for a lightning-gun-like Flamethrower when most people agree it would solve the problem.