this isnt late i swear shhhhhhhhhh

Just wanted to say that we are already running the S30 Newbie Mix team drive, and will be posting an announcement about it as well as how you can get involved shortly!

lmao imagine if it just didn't have tf2

my fault, finals suck

There is also a sale for premium this season to celebrate ESEA's 10 year anniversary

I promise you won't draw our ire.

hey fellas can we have the map system back where its 1 map for a week and it cycles through the rotation please

This and remove cardinal (or replace it with propaganda which was by far the best of the new maps), the second point is so bad on cardinal it has potential but really needs to be updated. The only reason it was allowed to be added randomly in the first place was because of the map veto system, but it's got some pretty big flaws and I'm pretty sure nearly everyone agrees that it's not good enough to replace a proper map in the pool (b4nny seems to be the only person who wants this and is at a bit of a conflict of interest given he made it with phi lol, it was pretty much universally banned this season cause everyone realizes it's not good)

I posted about this in another thread but I very much don't think we should be forced to play cardinal in the regular season and it should just be removed, it's not even getting updates anymore what is the point? I see zero reason honestly. I suppose if someone else decided to update it maybe then we could entertain the possibility of playing it, but it needs a lot of work first. Aside from the second being a disaster, the last is way too hard to push and there are some pretty broken sniper sightlines that make it aids to push out of last cause the main lane to walk up to point puts you directly in the skghine of a sniper in mid who walked out of forward (imagine badlands choke didn't have a spire to block medics walking out trash and side spire)

youre kinda putting words in b4nnys mouth here. He is a supporter of the map yes but he has never said the map is in a good state and has even suggested huge changes to second (like you are referencing) and this map is actually still being worked on behind the scenes despite Phi's departure from the comp community, she has stated she will see this map through.

the map is universally disliked for the same reason all new maps are universally disliked; people are uncomfortable playing new maps and don't play the map enough to really learn it and have a meta for the map develop. There is problems, of course, that is what development for. But to say that cardinal doesn't fit the current flow of the game more than say granary or badlands I feel isn't an accurate statement. The map is made by an incredible good and competent map designer who has made extremely good competitive maps before and despite what a majority thinks, there are more people out there than you might know that actually think this map is playable and has potential, it just doesn't see play because of the bandwagon mentality.

give the map more than a season to develop, let changes come and let a meta develop and you will see the map improve. This is the exact same scenario all the current staple maps have gone through. Every. Single. One.

Hardly accurate to put all of the valid criticisms that have been raised down to ‘bandwagoning’, also the creator of the map says she doesnt want to be involved with the community anymore, are we meant to know telepathically that it actually is being worked on behind the scenes?

it is definitely accurate to put the negative feedback of this map in the bandwagon mentality because there hasn't been enough playtests from a majority of players to prove otherwise. If players don't want to be put into this category then they need to show a willingness to develop a map instead of shit on it from a couple playtests before they even know the meta of the map (which is very true here, don't bother saying its not)

She literally stated in her departure statement and her Statement on TF2 maps that she would develop this map because of its inclusion she just isn't partaking in the competitive forums anymore.

Quote from TF2maps statement from Phi

"the map is universally disliked for the same reason all new maps are universally disliked"
Propaganda was liked by pretty much everyone that played it as much as people do generally like to bandwagon the fact is the map has legitimate problems and people are right to think it's not ready to be played at the current state
That's good to hear she is updating it but that may still leave it with major problems so it definitely should be re evaluated before being put in certainly as a weekly map. I think people can be fine with it as a pick ban map in the rotation cause you can just ban it though

Propaganda is just a legitimately good, intuitive map that plays well already. I think you need to consider the possibility that there's an in between of people bandwagoning against it baselessly and people actually realizing it's a bad map. No invite player who did the cup is "afraid" of playing propaganda it was good and universally liked afaik. Logjam and the others though had some big issues and did not flow well at all.

I know there's gonna be a discussion with tri some time about the map list and stuff (tonight? won't be on unfortunately), but I am VERY hesitant to accept this notion of "modern"-ness and the flow of the map being objectively better than granary and badlands. Yes badlands last is super small and chokey and stalemates a lot but I've also played games like a golden cap vs evl where it went back and forth one last to the other like four different times, there is definitely interesting flow to the map and it's such a staple that to say we should remove it simply because it doesn't play like process seems VERY hasty to me. Most newer players don't like badlands because they don't know how to play it and just jump on the bandwagon of hating it. If anything we should be more skeptical of this sudden bandwagon to purge maps rather than "bandwagons" against adding in new unfinished maps that inherently must be met with criticism because they have to be proven ready to be put in.

Granary as well is very slow and can be stalematey which okay that's unfortunate for spectators but I've had some granary matches that were incredibly back and forth and interesting as well. Slow and methodical team play is rewarded on that map as well as having proper strategy to take left yard and wrap and stuff like that. The main criticism is stalemates but plenty of other maps like snakewater can have huge stalemates mid to second and on last, as well as process second. Like literally every map can lead to stalemates if the team wants to (i.e., 7) yes some are more inherently hard to break than others like gran second but my team found no trouble just two man sacking and baiting the push. Sitting on a sniper is bad on both that and the badlands mid to second stalemate cause there's not too many good angles but that's not to say you can't overload flank and send people behind and stuff like that.
Another thing is that soldier is really strong and impactful on gran and badlands whereas every other map scout class is the king maybe having maps that allow soldiers to actually carry versus the giant open maps like process and sunshine where scouts just rule is a good balance change? Combo scouts on gran and badlands can do tons of work as well though obviously just look at b4nny he still puts out a ton of damage and stuff it's just not always as easy and as simple as sitting on the high ground and props like most maps. Flank scout on granary is usually pretty boring and hard to play and people say it's impossible to have impact or do anything, which is true to an extent but doesn't have to be the case. If you jump on the bandwagon that it's awful and u can't do anything yeah you probably won't, but for example on my team in the lower bracket finals this season reimu went in for aggressive flank plays and double sacks and did a ton of work despite the map making it difficult, I believe she even top fragged.

Fuck that's a lot of words
Anyways tldr there needs to be more thought put into it and backing up statements like maps being "modern" and fitting the flow of the game as if there is some given way that the game "should" be played on any given map. Not everything has to be a clone of snake/process.

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I'm getting vivid ScorpioUprising flashbacks from this post. How does a reasonable post such as:

Show 'bandwagon mentality'? Are you saying that ALL negative feedback should just be discarded because of some secret hate for new maps? That doesn't seem like a good way to improve the map and you're only going to encourage people to hate the map more by discarding their opinion immediately.

Also people are not criticising a map based off of 'a couple playtests' they are basing it off of a season of matches and scrims on the map. I agree that many people will just blindly hate a map because it's new but I think if a map is actually good and has potential then that will shine through. Change isn't automatically bad, but it isn't automatically good either.

He isn't. He's saying that you can't just play a map once or twice and decide it's bad; a map needs constant feedback, adjustments to it from that feedback, and then retesting when that feedback is implemented.

Also, just saying "map bad" isn't good feedback. You know what is good feedback? "This Second is way too easy to hold. Try moving around the high ground." "Hey, there's a broken sniper sightline over here." "This choke needs to be widened to be pushed out of." This is negative feedback, but it's constructive and isn't just circlejerking.

I and others have given constructive feedback, many others have simply said it is bad. Saying it is bad is feedback that it is indeed not a good map. Both are valuable to know, if everyone who has played it thinks the map is bad, that should definitely say something.

a challenger!? GIMME 3 MONTHS WORTH AND EVERYONE WILL DIE!

I got some advice for you: take a few months off from posting, then don't come back.

grown ass man insults highschooler with EPIC results