in his post he literally says

so you want to play more maps but you're mad you're playing the maps you are good at in a competitive league and have a better chance of winning on?

ya you guys fucking lost me on that one.

If you need more proof on how dumb this logic is, here is my team playing 7 maps in season 28 and 6 maps in season 29

https://imgur.com/a/qbWj8Km

you and your teammates and the teams you play only wanting to play a few maps is the problem with the system, not the system itself, please stop this bullshit whining lol

MANIFEST YOUR HATRED INTO GETTING GOOD AT OTHER MAPS
WEAPONIZE YOUR DISDAIN OR DIE FROM IT

And loose our Viaduct/Propaganda bans?
So we risk having to play literal aids that isn't even worth practicing (no other koth maps in the pool so it isn't worth learning) or a new map that nobody has played and is impossible to get decent scrims on?
NTY
And thus is the problem with pick ban.
The new maps will never get proper playtesting because you are not forced to play them. Teams that are bad at certain maps and gamemodes will just ban them to avoid playing them instead of wasting scrims that would be better spent on other maps that play to your team's strengths.
Keep in mind that this is a COMPETITIVE LEAGUE. You do not pick things based upon your personal likes and dislikes if you wish to win.

viaduct is definitely worth learning even though it’s the only koth map in the rotation

many of the maps in the current map pool have diverse enough playstyles associated with them that learning them all makes sense and keeps ur team well-rounded

bro you're actually so hypocritical it hurts my head I don't even know wtf you are arguing in favour of right now.

I'm not saying it isn't. Im saying that with the limited practice time we get after we know what map it is going to be it is illogical to try to get your team to learn an entirely new game mode that does not play to your strengths in the 3 scrims you get before your match. That would be basically throwing.

The return of weekly maps so we have time and reason to practice both the new maps and the ones we are bad at so we do not get stuck playing 6 weeks of process.

So now you want to be forced to play maps you explicitly said are bad, while also complaining that you are currently being forced to play the same maps you don't want to play over and over currently.

bruh

It is a combination of objectivity (my personal feelings on certain maps is irrelevant to the health of the scene) and playing to win (something you should be doing in a competitive league). Just because you are bad at some aspect of the game does not mean you should be able to simply ban it. As much as i HATE koth maps i do not think i should be able to avoid them. However if the league rules say i can ban them then i am not going to willingly put my team at a disadvantage (koth) or reduce the game to a coin toss (in the case of new maps) if i am not forced to whether or not i personally agree with it.

Another thing that proves my point is NOT A SINGLE IM TEAM HAS PLAYED OR IS SCHEDULED TO PLAY CP_PROPAGANDA. With the current system new maps will not get sufficient playtesting or adoption. It was the same case last season.

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screwb can u stop spamming my intermediate thread
ty

what are the reasons in favor of a match by match pick/ban system?

1. i don't want to play things i'm bad at :'(
   
2. it is sort of nice not having to play the same map all week

at a higher level it in theory allows teams to be a bit more dynamic and allow them to play to their strengths resulting in a more competitive top level of the game

kinda dumb to have it in invite and not all the other divisions though

I personally think it makes sense in playoffs (when it actually matters at the top level) but it cripples the growth of lower level and new teams during the main season. If you needed pick/ban to make playoffs you where probably not going to be top 4 anyways.

Screwball I think you need to go to a mumble or something and have this new system explained to you because you clearly are very lost. I would love to help your delusions

My personal likes and dislikes are irrelevant. Winning a lot of process games doesn't prove we are good at TF2. It proves we are good at process. I think teams should be well rounded and forced to play things that are not there best if they wish to be at the top.

Congrats on proving you are good at metalworks?

The system does not exist in a vacuum. What works on paper does not always work in reality. The fact of the matter is this system leads to less map variety and less team growth in the long run.

this is a great way to get grimed by someone when they don't move the match from the early date

screwb i normally agree with your point but you're making it very hard rn

if you suck at a map learn it instead of bitching out and banning it

that way if other teams suck at it and are retards (like 90% of tf2 teams) you can just stomp them on that map if they dont ban it

winning pick bans is just as important as winning a midfight in the long run

League rules say i can ban it. If my goal is to win then it would be completely illogical not to ban it. It is time that could be more productively spent refining our gameplay on maps that we are decent at.

However just because we are bad at it does mean i think that we should be able to ban it. However the rules are the rules and i am going to play to win within the bounds of the rules. I can not expect anyone else to choose otherwise.

Statistically i have been proven correct. There is FAR less map variety than ever before, fewer entertaining to watch upsets from teams being forced into new situations, and last but not least none of the new maps are even getting played. This is bad for the long term health of the game.

im not saying dont ban any maps that you suck at, i'm saying that if you have 3 or 4 maps that you are awful at it may be time to practice those maps instead of practicing gullywash again

I think you are misunderstanding my whole point. The current league structure benefits my team in the sense that we don't have to play anything we are bad at. The problem is that we don't have to play anything we are bad at and the same maps keep getting picked over and over again. This issue is bigger than any individual team's score at the end of the season. It is about the long term growth and quality of play we can expect to see from coddled teams that never need to play outside of their comfort zone in the seasons to come.

I don't know about you ScrewB, but I've found propaganda scrims and haven't banned it other than once. I also know of teams that are willing to play metalworks, granary, sunshine, product, etc. It seems to me like you just don't wanna improve on other maps cause you're team is better on the normal ones so you take the easy way out and go for the maps your team knows better, which in conclusion means that you're forcing yourself to play on the maps that you're complaining about always playing.

like i dont even know dude

you should be banning maps based on whether or not you're better than the other team at it. you say that you only play process because it's a map your team is good at, yet i can guarantee your team is worse at process than half the teams in IM this season; so it'd be to your benefit to ban process against those teams in favour of less played maps where you might be able to get an edge.

like, choosing not to ban to most popular maps against teams you are heavily unfavoured against is probably the most retarded thing you could do, unless your goal is to lose quickly. They will have way more experience on those maps than your team, so you'll be at a massive disadvantage. At least on new maps, you don't need to factor in years of practice. Literally just a couple weeks of scrims on propaganda would give you more experience on that map than most teams in IM right now. You said it yourself, practically nobody is scrimming propaganda--that's a huge opportunity.

choosing to play a map because you're "good" at it, even if you're a shitton worse than the other team at it, is probably the most coddled and comfortable thing you could do. If the odds are against you, you should take risks, and pick/bans give you the ability to take those risks.

like what the fuck

i agree with walrex, screwb. you said that koth (and i assume by extension, "bad maps") would "give you a disadvantage" but you fail to realize that basically your entire team is a bunch of open players who came to IM to save it. watching a 30 minute demo of an invite team playing propaganda instead of another episode of whichever anime you're watching right now will give you a greater edge against a team that may barely be better than you. the worst excuse you can make about losing to a team is that "this map is bad" when in reality the team you just lost to likely has much more experience on whichever map they just beat you on

in short, practice your bad maps and you could beat a team that beats you 5-4 on <popular map>

THE OTHER MAPS DON'T GET PLAYED YOU APE
THAT IS WHAT I AM COMPLAINING ABOUT
I AM LITERALLY COMPLAINING ABOUT NOT GETTING TO PLAY ALL THE MAPS

You are acting like we even get to ban more than 3 maps. The only maps we ban are Viaduct because it is an entirely different gamemode that requires excessive effort to learn and plays heavily against our strengths and propaganda because finding decent scrims on it seems to be impossible. We also ban snakewatter because we are fucking dreadful at it so why the hell not? We still scrim it but haven't gotten much out of it. Now other teams are probably going to ban gran and blands. That leaves only process, gully, metal, sunshine. Of these gully or metal are usually banned because scout mains are huge crybabys about any map they cant maintain a 2/1 KD on. So that leaves only process and sunshine being played for the rest of the fucking season.

FUN ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Show me this magical non existent invite team that has played or is scheduled to play propaganda so that we may download there demo and watch it. Im waiting.
https://play.esea.net/index.php?s=league&d=standings&division_id=3246
I have looked at every team in every div and NOT A SINGLE TEAM HAS PLAYED OR IS PLANNING TO PLAY PROPAGANDA!

ok at least be accurate in your roasts

spades is literally the opposite of an ape

call him lucky charms

Screwb ur team is the only IM team that has told me no when i asked for a map this season.

literally every other team has agreed to whatever i ask even via/gran/blands/metal

I've been told no by multiple teams when i asked about propaganda. The only map we have ever said no about was Via because we are literally a mid open team on that map and it isn't worth anyone's time to play us on it.

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