Cyanicso no then?
Firstly, wether or not I play 6s is irrelevant to my arguments, secondly you could find this out with less than 20 clicks/button presses. I'll show you how:
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And here is my response to jarateking:
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JarateKingCollaidestuff about skill
You're saying it like they either get skill from playing against unlocks, or never get better at anything. People will improve whether things are banned or unbanned. You don't need to play against unlocks to get better or learn to adapt, you learn that just fine by playing normally.
I don't actually know where you got this impression from, since you don't include the actual quote.
JarateKingI'm speaking all anecdotally
Which is a problem for people in this thread, who are so sure they're right, they don't listen to arguments from the other side.
JarateKingI think it's safe to say that it didn't work (whether or not it helped cause the decline, it certainly didn't stop it).
Maybe it stopped the flow out of some players? Maybe it accelerated the death of tf2? We don't know. Conclusive statements like these are only supported anecdotally. I think it's more likely that other games like Overwatch & Paladins releasing in recent seasons is a larger factor than whitelist change, but what I think doens't matter, because we actually don't know for certain.
JarateKingAnd while low signup numbers could be / are from a lot of things, if there's a decent chance that changing the whitelist could help, we should try it. Worst case scenario, we just give the majority of current players what they want (as we've seen from the polls, where 80% of people wanted a much stricter whitelist).
Well, we don't actually know this, and correct me if I'm wrong, but the polls are usually conducted on tftv where 90% of people are sweaty tryhard americans?
JarateKingalso how the fuck are you asking for a citation for the statement "if they deserved to win or lose is an opinion"?
Accidentally split one quote into two. Was gonna remove the first one.
JarateKingThat specific example
Sounds pretty sad, but it also sounds like the players who scored the most points won.
JarateKingIt will always happen to some degree. It just depends how much. There always was a separation between skill levels, but it wasn't as big or as different as it is now. And while I do feel that this separation being a lot bigger than it needs to be is a big reason people quit (as I've said many times before), this just goes back to the citations argument where the only thing we have to go off of is anecdotes and the team signup decline.
I don't think people quitting is the (most important) issue, I think it's that the influx of new players is too low, because the game is not similar enough to the normal games (pubs) and that's why tf2 esports will never take off.
JarateKingAnd they still do. They still say "the only reason pyro isn't viable in competitive is because all his stuff is banned" or "I'd play competitive if I could actually use a loadout that isn't stock" or "even highlander is better, they dont ban as much." Even after the whitelist has been opened so much that they're all flat out wrong. What they really mean is that they don't care about competitive and want a reason to hate it, and we'll never be able to convince them to join.
Fair point. That's probably true for a chunk of them. They might also not be updated with the scene and be aware of the changes.
JarateKingWe shouldn't focus our efforts on appealing to them, because we can't really do anything more for them (the whitelist is as open as it's gonna get without rebalances) and we haven't seen any results from compromising for them (as the signup numbers say). The only crowd we need to appeal to is the people who like the idea of competitive, but aren't currently playing for one reason or another.
Signup numbers went down before this whitelist too. So at the very least it had a neutral impact. We don't actually know what impact it had; we simply don't have the data.
JarateKingBut the meta didn't suddenly become this fresh, new, unstale and exciting thing when we moved to the open whitelist.
Meta won't be super fresh new and unstale in tf2 ever, unless drastic changes happen. (I'm not advocating drastic changes) What I meant was more that it removes different kinds of flavour and fewer ways to potentially do thinigs: variety.
JarateKingI'd say the meta now is more stale than it was before we started unbanning everything, easily. How stale the meta is doesn't depend on how many weapons are available, it depends on how many strats are viable, and unlocks often actually limit those.
But unlocks can unlock different ways of doing a strat, or make new strats (eg. soldier backpacks)
JarateKingDoes that mean it's somehow wrong? Hell, the whole point of the whitelist at the end of the day is to make sure the game is more fun / remove things that aren't as fun, so if the overall community's opinion is "we should ban things", doesn't that mean we should ban things?
1. Not necessarily, because the majority might not realise what benefits the game as whole the most. Theoretically, they could just not be concerned about this at all, but that's their choice. I for one, would not like the community to shrink faster than it already is.
2. Appeal to popularity, look it up.
3. The point of this thread is to have a discussion, no? If everyone has the same opinion maybe they should construct arguments instead of using anecdotal evidence (the majority of posts on this thread).
EDIT: I love how people dislike the post before it's possible to have read it all.