Man, this thread turned to shit.

Welp, I think I've gotten about as much feedback as I'm going to get here. I'll run the feedback post by the boys over at r/tf2 now. If I come back here with an announcement post, it will probably look something like this:

Entry Fee and Prize Money

• Entry fee - $5 USD per person. Depending on amount of entrants, money will go to covering baseline costs (my initial prize pool + increasing the size of the prize pool + server rentals + etc). I'd be interested in working with a third party to manage this end of things, since I'm no business owner and have no intent of profiting off of this tourney. The more people who enter, the bigger the prize pool will be- but at this rate, I would need roughly 10 people to enter to break even on the prize pool alone. If we get a lot of entrants or donations/sponsors, I can probably afford to lower the entry fee significantly.
  
• Prize money - I'll put down $50 to start. 50% of the prize pool will go to the first place winner, 30% will go to the second place winner, and 20% will go the third place winner. The more people who enter, the larger the prize pool will be.

Game Progression

• Round 1 - A coinflip starts the proceedings. Winning player chooses the class (ditto or free-choice) and the loser chooses the map. First to 10 kills wins.
  
• Round 2 - No coinflip. Loser of round 1 chooses the class (ditto or free-choice) and the winner chooses the map (has to be different from previous). First to 10 kills wins.
  
• Tiebreaker - Free-choice class. Random map. First to 10 kills wins.

Rules/Restrictions

• Classes - Scout, Soldier, Demoman and Sniper are allowed in dittos and free-choice rounds. Pyro is allowed, but only in free-choice rounds, to prevent slow/awkward ditto games.
  
• Maps - Maps are a forced change between rounds. You will have to pick a different map for every round. This is to encourage variety for viewers and players alike.
  
• Timer - Round 1 and 2 are allowed to run for 5 minutes, while round 3 will run for 3. Whoever has more kills at the end of the round wins if the time limit is reached. This is intended to discourage hiding or camping.
  
• Weapon Bans - Darwin's Danger Shield, status effect weapons (Mad Milk, Fan of War, Boston Basher) and any other weapons determined to encourage camping/prolong the game/negatively impact balance will also be banned. This is a 1v1 tournament, not a cheese fest.

You insinuated because I main Spy that I don't care about the mechanical depth and DM capabilities of other classes in this game, which simply isn't true. You jumped to hella assumptions based on only surface-level knowledge, which yeah I'm gonna take offense to.

Hell, Demo is probably my second-favorite class, just because of how awesome it feels to hit pipes. I'm not particularly good at Demoman yet (not comp-ready, at any rate), but I still play it a lot.

idk that's like half the comments in this thread lol

I mean, most people I know prefer dittos in MGE for a straightforward measure of who has the better raw aim as that particular class. Adding counter-picking and stuff is meant to add a bit more depth and strategy than just solly v solly on spire for 20 minutes.

maybe

I'll wait for some more people to sound off here on TF.TV, then I'll see what people on r/tf2 think about class restrictions and whatnot (remember: I'm trying to reach a wider audience than JUST the pre-existing 6s scene here.).

I might just concede to only Solly/Demo/Scout, but I'm still strongly considering Pyro (at LEAST in free-choice games) so we have at least sort of half the classes in on the action. I want to appeal to as many people as possible and allow potential for unexpected upsets.

I might lower the entry fee, but the fees would go like this:

First $50 (10 entrants at $5/each): covering my initial investment of $50 into the prize pot.
This tourney won't be run for profit, at least not on my end, so the rest of the cash would go to getting the servers up for this and hiring folks (if necessary) to cast the finals brackets, as well as increasing the prize pool to be spread among the top 3 winners. Unless it gets truly massive I can do all writing/organizing myself.

If enough people show interest in actually signing up, I'll look around for sponsors/trusted third parties to manage the entry fees/money end of things, since I don't want that kind of stuff hanging over my head.

Then don't get personal. See how that works?

I'm not trying to force anything, I just want to leave the option open in case people want to do that for some reason.

My base idea for the format is really just short rounds, forced map switch between rounds, and people counter-picking maps/classes to make MGE more interesting than what it currently is. That is still doable if I decide to lock it down to Scout, Soldier and Demoman (though imo allowing Pyro, esp with the upcoming Pyro update, would still be a smart move, if only to have proper counters for the projectile classes available).

However, despite my repeated insistencies, nobody is actually talking about the core and whether or not it'd be good for a tourney/better for spectating, which I believe it would be. I am willing to back down on allowed classes, but making a quicker, more viewable MGE is the core of the idea here.

I play Spy because its stealth mechanics interest me greatly, but I spend a lot more time recently playing Soldier or Demoman, since Spy can't carry for shit and I actually do enjoy the DM, rocketjumping and positioning side of things.

Why the fuck else would I have any interest in running an MGE tournament? Do you think I go to MGE/DM servers playing my fucking main?

Of course, a look at my (reset multiple times) hourcount will tell you all you need to know about me as a player, from my skill, to what classes I enjoy, to what I want out of the scene (6s is objectively the best format for spectating! I want the TF Team to embrace it just as much as you do!). Ad hom and surface-level observations absolutely give you enough information to speak as if you've actually played with me, which you haven't. :')

but that game is garbage and not at all what I'm proposing with a slightly-more-strategic version of MGE

sick ad hom, dude

also, I've reset my stats like twice. but whatever.

what does it matter if you still win?

also, you didn't respond to this:

I've played this game a lot, too. I don't have the crazy hour count as some of you do, but I do have enough passion in the scene and the game to try and host a tourney that tries to make MGE watchable and palatable to the wider TF2 audience, not just us.

Honestly, I still fail to see the harm in refusing to play a tourney on the off chance you may be forced to play Pyro for a single round, after which you can thrash them anyways if you're actually the better player. Add that plus a prize pool, and depending on how many people sign up, you'lll deal with a gimmick or two in exchange for a cash prize. Is that really the worst idea? Is TFTV really this against stepping out of their comfort zone?

First of all,

So Heavy v Heavy wouldn't happen, and neither would any sentry-bullshit with Engineers.

Engie minus sentries is slow Scout, granted, so I could see the merit behind removing that as well. Medic's sryinge gun actually has quite high DPS potential in the hands of people who know how to use it, though I don't see many people forcing a Medic ditto unless they have mind-blowing skills with the wrong Medic primary.

That just leaves Pyro and Spy. Pyro's skillset involves doing airblast-combos and reflecting, which can lead to either a slightly-silly ditto or, in the right hands, a sharp response to Soldiers and Demomen as a counterpick.

I feel like it'd be smart to ban the Spy watches in general, but Spy revolver duels aren't bad, especially when choosing between using Ambassador or Revolver for the engagement. Interesting things happen with knives, too.

Obviously a Scout duel is faster, but the Revolvers require a bit more precision to be useful, and many Spy duels are done in a matter of seconds, since neither can double-jump shit around the engagement or get chip damage. Either you were accurate enough to hit the shot, or you get nothing.

Well, for the sake of arguing, say I agree with you about restricting all non-6s classes. What the short rounds and map/class counter-picking? Is the entire format a problem, or just allowing room for class selection gimmicks?

I would appreciate an actual argument with my points.

posting a reaction gif doesn't contribute to the discussion or actually counter anything I've said.

like, if my idea is shit, by all means, argue. make me understand your point of view, show me where past experimentation like this has failed, explain to me why stock MGE is a superior solution for spectating and competing than this is. make your goddamn case.

That isn't what I'm proposing. Class picks would be left up to the players. Hell, the only forced change between rounds would be maps- class selection, or lack therof, would be up to the winner of the coinflip (in the first round) or loser of the first round (in the second round).

What I'm doing is leaving open the opportunity for a disadvantaged player to force a ditto that would allow them a fighting chance, not pushing Prolander or some shit, which I think is a disaster. If they think Pyro can give them that advantage, I say let them do it- if they don't, I don't care.

See, this is why people don't like us. There's plenty of skilled Pyro mains outside of the niche that 6v6 forces them into. There's so much more that goes into being skilled at TF2 than using less than half of its classes.

These scenarios do sound silly, I'll give you that much, but for what reason should the opportunity for them be taken away? These 1v1s may be slower or flow differently, but they're still 1v1s. Also, no Pyro would approach a 1v1 without using airblast/flame particle damage to their advantage at some point in the proceedings- for instance, to juggle the enemy into shotgun/flare combos.

I don't think a smart person would do something like that with money on the line. If they do, it's their right, but the whole point of the system is to give people a fighting chance, stop spectators from watching the exact same 1v1 on the exact same map for 20 minutes, and to keep things fast-paced and interesting while still requiring some strategy around counter-picking classes and maps depending on the skill of the other player.

Understand, the idea of this tournament isn't just to appeal to TFTV, the seasoned 6s players. It needs to appeal to the TF2 audience at large, and spectating first-to-20, Scout/Soldier-only MGE accomplishes neither my goal to appeal to that audience or my goal to show people just how much of a spectacle TF2's 1-on-1s are capable of being.

Lax class bans and the class-picking system mean people who main non-generalist classes can still have their chance against people who only play one or two of the generalist classes.

Shorter rounds and forced arena changes between rounds means that nobody's going to be stuck watching a foregone conclusion MGE, or one that drags on for too long without a change of scenery or strategy.

With this system, yes, there's room for silly gimmicks, but TF2 itself is a game that encourages those gimmicks. Counterplay is the name of the game.

Round 1's a Scout ditto that you can't win because that's not your best class? Great, force a Demoman ditto for Round 2 or go ahead and make classes free-choice if you're confident in that. It gives a chance to even the odds, a chance to make a comeback. Ultimately, the better, more-rounded player will still win, but isn't it way more interesting if the game's outcome isn't transparent from the moment one of the players crosses the threshold of ten kills?

Raw, stock MGE, which is what most of you want to stick to, is not fun to watch. It never will be. To be frank, it's dull and repetitive. The only value MGE has at the moment is to practice raw aim to improve your individual skill as a player, but as far as entertainment value goes, or developing strategy or game sense, it falls dreadfully short.

The fact is, having shorter rounds maintains the fast pace people expect from an eSport. Having counter-picking classes and maps adds in the complexity and strategy that people expect from an eSport, and which is currently absent from the vast majority of the MGE scene.

Open your mind a little. Can you really not see the potential of an MGE tournament that requires more skill and strategy than just raw aim? The better player will still win in the end. In fact, chances are the winners will ultimately be Scout/Soldier mains, who have both raw DM potential and know how to strategize around counterplay and counterpicking.

I'm not proposing something that rips out the soul of MGE, or spits in the face of 6s. I'm proposing something that makes MGE worth watching, that adds variety to the playing and viewing experience, and encourages more well-rounded players beyond runny-shootman and rocketdude. Is that really not something you'd be willing to play for a chance at some extra money?

Yes, it's CSGO and Dota 2's voice codec.

Once the TF Team is sure it works properly in community servers, Casual and Competitive will have sweet-sounding, low-latency voicechat at last. : D

For a single round. If you're truly better at the game, you'll either:
A, overcome the challenge and beat the Pyro main at their own game
B, demolish them in Tiebreaker, since there's no class picking to speak of and you can counter whatever gimmick they try to pull off.

I don't see how my proposed system prevents the better player from winning. It only hurts you if you have a limited knowledge of counterplay in this game which, yes, is a huge part of what dictates "skill". It's not just raw aim.

Being forced to adapt is much more challenging than a straightforward Ammomod MGE testing raw aim and nothing else. It's also much more interesting to watch than that, because there's room for upsets and exciting things to happen. Would you watch a cast of pure stock MGE? I know I wouldn't. We've both already seen all that has to offer.

There's more skill involved in TF2 than just aim. Positioning, knowing the map, counterpicking, etc, are all key parts of the game. MGE as a practice mode for raw aim is fine, but for it to be worth spectating changes to stock MGE need to be made that enable other forms of skill to be presented.

Again, skill in TF2 isn't limited solely to Scout and Soldier. That's extremely narrow-minded, and if we aren't willing to experiment I don't see the scene growing in any significant way.

I want to showcase the variety and excitement that exists in 1v1s in TF2. The stock MGE ruleset leaves a lot of that out, so shortening rounds, switching maps and adding a class/map-pick system enables the other forms of skill in TF2 to shine.

MGE is nothing like the rest of this game, period. Thrashing in MGE won't mean you'll thrash in the main game, because there's classes, there's strategy, there's positioning that can counter you. Adding even just a little bit of that significantly spices up the standard MGE formula, at least in my opinion, and that's why I'm pushing this tourney so hard.

I appreciate the sentiment. Thanks for being constructive, if nothing else.

@SpaceCadet and GentlemanJon
for the sake of simplicity I'd just like to stick with a double-elimination bracket. standard is standard for a reason, in that case.

can you give me some examples?

The only class-picking options are picking a ditto (ie, both players play the same class for the duration of the round: Soldier) or allowing free-choice (players can switch at any time over the duration of the round). The one who chooses class isn't going to do something like assign Shotgun Engie to their enemy and Scout to themselves, it doesn't work like that.

In the case of a ditto being selected, the winner will obviously be the one who's better at the class, and (likely but not guaranteed) the one who selected the ditto. The loser will be allowed to choose a ditto of their own in the next round to counter, and them the last round will be a tiebreaker where both players will have to adapt as necessary to whatever the other chooses to play, since it's free-choice.

That wouldn't be very entertaining to watch. I could get the same thing out of spectating an MGE server.

The whole point of the class and map-picking system is to encourage flexibility and adaption. I don't want to see a first-to-20 Scout 1v1 on the same map every game.

Round 1 gives the advantage of class-picking to the winner of the coinflip, and the advantage of map-picking to the loser of the coinflip.

Round 2 gives the advantage of class-picking to the loser of the previous (meaning they can opt for a ditto they believe would give them a better chance or enable free-choice to counter anything the other throws out) and the advantage of map-picking to the winner of the previous (so if the other person chooses, say, Pyro, he can make sure the engagement is an open space where the other guy can't cheese him as hard).

That is what this thread is for. What maps in MGE do you feel are problematic for a tournament setting? Obviously Ammomod and BBall shouldn't be allowed, but what others come to mind? .

That's the point. I want it to be quick. Following rounds give enough opportunity for a comeback, but imo you can usually see where an MGE is going by the halfway point. Forcing a map and possibly a class change each round keeps things interesting to watch, without it falling into the dull, repetitive gameplay loop that MGE usually becomes after a few rounds.

MGE is a practice mode, not a spectator esport. Changes need to be made to add variety and intrigue to the experience for it to work in a setting like this.

I would want to reserve at least one or two over the duration of the tournament to ensure that players can play on the maps they want to play on and, if properly scheduled, there won't be any trouble with other players on the server.

Requiring demo recording is a no-brainer, but thank you for adding it.

FaceIt's tourney is a thing, my man. I don't have money for a prize-pool like that, and MGE with a twist is what I'm interested in running. You're welcome to sponsor your own tourney or donate to a prize-pool of one you agree with if an MGE tourney isn't something you're interested in.

Honestly, why did you even click this thread if you knew there wasn't anything here for you?

I mean, a tourney is a tourney regardless of who's running it.

And you're not giving me anything- at best, I'll break even for the money spent with enough signups, with all of the rest going toward casting/production/the prize pool. I have no desire to profit from this.

I prefer the current coinflip system so people can get a fighting chance. Your typical first-to-20 MGE is 5-10 minutes on the same map, on the same class, with very little variety involved. It's usually a foregone conclusion halfway through, too.

Nobody in this tourney would be granted an unfair advantage. Class-picking is mitigated by the other person map-picking, and even then class-picking isn't a guaranteed advantage.

For instance, let's say you're terrible at Soldier and Demoman but excellent with Scout and Pyro. Your opponent excels at the explosive classes, and he gets to pick class on the first coinflip.

Round 1, you lose the Soldier matchup.

Round 2, you get to pick class. You get to choose to do a Scout matchup. The other person gets to choose a map that ensures you won't cheese him too hard. You are still not guaranteed victory, because he may well have better aim and movement than you, but you are given a fighting chance. Assuming you win this round, it goes on to the tiebreaker.

Round 3, no restrictions, random map. Neither of you are at any advantage or disadvantage. At this point, it's about who can best counterplay the other: it's to see who is actually better at the game. You could pull out Pyro at this point to shut down his projectiles, for instance, or he could counter that strategy with a Scout pick. etc etc.

There are more classes in this game than just Scout and Soldier. Skill also involves counterpicking and adapting to what your opponent is doing, which I believe the rules of this tournament would encourage.

I kinda wanna so a single-prize pool tourney, both for simplicity reasons and organizational reasons. I'd only consider dividing the tournament into tiers if a lot of people sign up.

in-game and with first-person view while waiting to figtht, yes.

but third-person and casted? I think it has the potential to be entertaining, especially with shorter-rounds and counter class-and-map-picks