ram me daddy, fill me with your hot jam

Final
I'm calling it quits, but not without a proper sendoff to the longest running KOTH map in tf2 history.
This is mostly a cleanup of leftover things. A couple meaningful changes, but mostly polishing up small details, as well as some cool new innovations.

Download: https://tf2maps.net/downloads/product.1063/download?version=30965
Workshop: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=454272353

Changelog:
- adjusted cap zone to better match visual indications
- fixed asymmetries related to mid
- fixed undefined spawn times before first capture
- changed spawnpoint order to prevent penalizing loadout changes
- fixed pickups being blockable by teleports
- fixed clipped nook on japan
- redesigned connector with equivalent geometry that prevents splash issues
- improved rock collision models
- improved roof clipping around secondary spawn exit
- improved clipping around triple windows
- other minor clipping improvements
- improved bot behavior
- improved soundscapes ~chirp, chirp~
- improved lighting
- adjusted prop fade distances

More than meets the eye!
For this final version, a lot of effort has been made to help players visualize the various invisible secrets the map holds. I've developed a fair amount of new mapping tech to be able to see the map like never before. On this release, you'll find familiar console commands that now have new functionality, and new commands driven by map logic. Product has always been a defining map in terms of competitive map making best practices and continues to innovate to this day.

r_drawclipbrushes 2
Displays clip brushes, now also displays blockbullet brushes as well as grate materials that allows splash (clip: fuschia, blockbullet: purple, grate: red).

https://i.imgur.com/N7TirD8.jpg

map_showspawnpoints
Displays the location of spawnpoints, now using the height of the spawnpoints to indicate the spawn order (lowest to highest).

https://i.imgur.com/rWwfG5O.jpg

showtriggers_toggle
Displays various trigger volumes, now with different textures for the various types of triggers (trigger_capture_area, func_nobuild, func_nogrenades, etc...).

https://i.imgur.com/Dg35gWv.jpg

ent_fire vis_disp toggle
Displays displacements with a tint to represent their solidity (blue: not solid to players and projectiles).

https://i.imgur.com/hiRgGGu.jpg

vcollide_wireframe 1
Displays the collision model for props (unchanged).

ent_fire func_illusionary kill
Removes various non-solid geometry from the world for disambiguation (unchanged).

Arnold -> gullywash, croissant, bazillion
Scorpio -> process, metalworks, standin

But yes, Valve historically does not fix maps if they are not broken, even more so with community maps. However, the original creators are free to be as proactive as they want and submit any changes. (they'd be included in some future patch when it's convenient to Valve, unless it's urgent).

Viaduct, is copyrighted by Valve, I cannot sublicense it and I forfeit all rights. As for the assets themselves, again, most assets are derivative of Valve assets and I cannot sublicense them. The few original assets are from creators who have not provided a license with their assets. That said I wouldn't worry too much, you're pretty much in the clear.

Hey! here's a new version:
https://tf2maps.net/downloads/product.1063/download?version=18447

Here are the changes:
- prevent players from changing class from the enemy spawn
- fixed smoothing groups on the rock models

These are the last changes I'll be making on koth_Product!
Here are the source files for the map:
https://github.com/maxdup/koth_product
Godspeed!

The Proper Announcement:
All of our efforts have been directed at polishing and maintaining the map for the best gameplay possible while of course, always preserving balance and performance, but most importantly, staying true to the original and making it one of the most robust maps of all. With the help of the community, we've pushed this map as far as we could. We're confident that the map is as good as it can be and we feel we've essentially ran out of space for significant changes to be made. We gave the map a direction and took it to the end of it. We feel that to keep going forward, we'd have to go in an other direction, one that probably wouldn't be Product. So we're stopping development; the "Product" canon has ended.

Going Forward:
Product is dead, long live Product! We're making the map open source so you're free to experiement with it and do whatever you want! There's already multiple initiatives in the works and we're excited to see where the community takes the map next. But! To avoid any confusion, we ask that you don't call your map any variation of "koth_product_rc*", "koth_product_final*" and definitely not "koth_product". There will no longer be a "mainline" Product, and the name of your release should reflect that.

The mainline can be resuscitated if and when the community feels the need but it is not my place to determine how that will take place or under who's authority. Until then, If you feel you've made worthwhile changes that you think fall under Product's philosophy, feel free to submit them to the Github project as a "pull request". The changes will be reviewed. I'm willing to act as a curator of future modifications and publish new versions when appropriate but I will not be implementing changes myself anymore.

Viaduct Pro was started by Tyler, and carried on by Fubar and Bubblebobber with the help of countless players.
Thanks all, it's been a fun ride.

B2A is here!

B2A Changes:
-Removed lower area under lobby (dungeon)
-Reworked geometry for better movement, mostly around 2nd and mid

B2A Download
https://tf2maps.net/downloads/buff.7487/download?version=18133

What's cookin' puggers

I'll be taking over PaperPlayerX's cp_bluff for the time being due to personal issues (thankfully, nothing major).
The map has been temporarily renamed to cp_buff for convenience only.

So here's a new version I guess!

B2 Changes:

• Mid:
  - Reworked bridge
  - Added new indoor areas across from mid
  - Redone forward spawn
  - Reworked geometry
  
  
• 2nd:
  - Redone paths connecting to last
  - Removed shutter door above 2nd
  - Reworked geometry
  
  
• Last:
  - Completely redone lobby
  
  
• Misc:
  - Added specatator cameras
  - Added cubemaps
  - Lighting overhaul

B2's goal
We want to test the new lobby connecting last and 2nd, see how that works and how it affects the surrounding control points. There's ideas on changes we might want to bring on to the last point itself but those are being saved for later. We want to use this version to inform future decisions on how the last point should be adjusted. Few improvements have been brought to mid, we're fairly confident they will play well but do keep an eye out on those.

B2A Download
https://tf2maps.net/downloads/buff.7487/download?version=18133

B2 Screenshots
https://imgur.com/a/lu7YjZG

hey there, I wasn't supposed to keep mapping, but this map kinda just happened. It happened completely involuntarily, in a pure lapse of automatism. This map was not intended to be for competitive play because truly, there is no intention behind this map. As I look at it now, the map completely weirds me out and I don't know what to make of it. I do not fully understand it or know why it exists. Now I need to decide if it will live on.

As far as koth is concerned, this is a true curve ball and I can't even tell you how you're supposed to hold this point. Step forward? stay back? hold on the point? I was hoping you guys could help me figure some of that out. I'm curious to hear your takes on this map. Is it interesting? stupid? both? does it have any merits? who knows...

here's an album of screenshots
https://imgur.com/a/8infA

Download
http://tf2maps.net/downloads/apex.5787/download?version=13068

Hey there, small update for fairly large issues. Here's rc9

https://tf2maps.net/downloads/product.1063/download?version=12842

changelog:
-fixed pomson, bison and wrap assassin projectiles being blocked by the middle connector.
-prevents wallbugging above "concrete" houses for information
-other minor adjustments

Thanks for bringing that to my attention. If other people have requests/suggestions for rc9, now is a good time.
Make it count, next version could be the definitive one.

Thanks for the kind words
It's definitely a decent map in its own right but I always wonder what's the missing element to comp acclaim. I have this tendency to assume it's something inherently wrong with the map but I could never pinpoint what it is.

What happened?
So vanguard has been added to the game a year ago. The circumstances have been bizarre to say the least and I've been trying to recollect in my head the series of events that have lead to where we are today. When I see these kinds of posts happening, it kinda leaves me scratching my head. What else could I have done, where did things go wrong.

Vanguard dates way back, probably 2011-2012. From the start I've always tried to be inclusive of the the competitive community. We'd regularly test it in scorpio's good ol' pugs, I've always seeked to get as much competitive feedback as possible and get the discussions going. To be honest tho, I never really got anything substantial out of that. The various forms of nitpicking did get me a long way, those things add up, but at the end of the day, I could never really get straight answers regarding the fundamentals of the map. Maybe it was my fault for never insisting enough but I could feel that people were already getting slightly annoyed at me pushing my dumb map. Maybe it was that there were no answers for vanguard, it is a weird map after all. In the end tho, it's the feeling that I had not completely figured out the map yet that kept me going. My initial goal was to create a good 6s map that would be a little different and would challenge the dominant meta a little, maybe pushing the game forward (may have been the fatal flaw right there). It may have been overly ambitious, I don't know. Ultimately, Vanguard did not get the traction it needed to get and I wasn't sure how I was going to bridge the gap alone. It never stopped me from working on the map tho. To me it had this sense of potential that kept me coming back to it. I was able to keep pushing the map and make it better. That lasted a couple years. It didn't matter how slowly it moved, I knew it was slowly getting better and that kept me going. The goal of making a 6s map had faded away; that was apparently not meant to be. At that point, getting the cold shoulder from the competitive scene no longer mattered to me, if the map didn't resonate with the competitive audience then that's perfectly fine. Of course I remained receptive to what the competitive community had to offer, but it never really materialized and I can't really blame you guys, that's just how it went. It didn't bother me too much, as long as I was still able to keep working toward making a quality map I would do just that. That was enough to keep me happy.

Then everything went crazy.
UGC eventually started getting interested in Vanguard, which came as a surprise at first. Vanguard always felt like a weird fit for highlander because I had built the map around all these 6v6 combat scenarios that were happening in my head. Maybe highlander 5cp just doesn't feel right ever, but I think it was mostly my own preconceptions of the map (difficult to be objective for me on that). Regardless I just rolled with it. Their input has been useful at improving the map overall. after many tests and iterations we eventually placed Vanguard in an actual season, Vanguard development was now faster than it had been in years and I was feeling good, the map had reached a true level of polish of which I was happy.

Then everything went crazier.
The UGC season had just ended and here I was working on the next major changes for the map. Then it happened, Valve had sent an email my way and vanguard was to be part of the next major update. It's quite the rush when valve casually sends you an email to tell you your map needs to be ready in the next two weeks. I reverted a few changes I had not had the time to playtest and shipped the map. I was HAPPY.

Then I had to stop doing crazy.
The map still had some issues and a few bugs which forced me to update the map a couple time. I took the opportunity to implement some of the changes I had been toying with prior to launch. But it was different now, It used to be that I could just try new things and experiment with the map but I had larger responsibilities now, It really puts things in perspective when hundreds of thousands of people are playing your map. So I opted for a couple last minute solutions that I'm not entirely satisfied with. It's difficult for me to be objective about the later changes but I don't feel that they were particularly creative or interesting. I kept it safe for the most part. In the end I felt this pressure to finalize the layout for once and for all and move on to other things, which made me kind of unhappy.

Then the community went crazy
There was this wave of hate around Vanguard. On one front, there was the post-UGC seasonal complaints of 5cp in highlander (shocker), the UGC community still had a sour taste in their mouth and the map did not have the time to show improvements before going in. On the other front, the 6s community was quick to point at Vanguard as a questionable choice by Valve. The timing was definitely weird. Unfortunately, the community was too blind to realize that Sunshine was being saved for the matchmaking update. It was as if Vanguard had illegitimately taken Sunshine's spot in Tough Break and I feel as tho Vanguard got a lot of unwarranted hate for it. Tbh that was a really shitty spot for me to be in. I had a good run tho, that's something to be happy about.

So, I'm not sure where that leaves us, I was considering giving Vanguard an other go and polish it up for 6s play since, let's face it, the matchmaking map pool is all over the place and we could use more viable maps in there. But uh, I don't know if it's worth it? I'm utterly confused regarding the community's feelings toward the map. Could be that the map is just not all that great or that the circumstances have placed it in an unfortunate spot. Could be both, I have no clue. I know it's kind of a polarizing map and that's probably something I can't do anything about since it was kinda meant to be that way. Maybe The map could be fixed, maybe it can't. I have no idea what the community consensus is on that but I'm hopeful that a full year has been enough to digest all of this.

But yeah, I've been working on building a level design portfolio lately to possibly get a job. Revisiting the old maps has been kind of a weird introspective journey and I figured I'd share some of it with you guys. Either way, my days of TF2 are counted so if vanguard is going to be updated, it's going to have to be now or I'm putting it to rest forever. (also if you want a koth_product update that would have to be now too but that is very unlikely unless something substantial comes up (don't worry I'll properly hand that down when the time comes))

Note: you can be blunt in this topic if you want. Better late than never amiright?
also this was too long, I'm sorry

This ctf talk brings back memories from 2010. Tf2maps.net had a "make ctf for comp" contest and it was kind of a crapshow. https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Competitive_CTF_Contest That said, what about ctf_landfall?

All the information that we have about how ctf plays out competitively is super dated. One thing that comes to mind is the player outline valve has added to flag carriers, it's probably not a big deal but I do wonder if that now gives out too much information for the game mode to be compelling in a competitive setting. picking up the flag puts you at a fairly large disadvantage.

The other question that's always at the back of my mind is "would this map make for a good spectator sport?". I don't know that tf2 ctf can be that. Ctf is definitively one of the modes that can drag on and I'm not sure how to address that... not to mention that caper outlines probably make it harder to cap than in the early days of ctf_turbine.

3cp could be worth exploring but I'm afraid the community will not be receptive to it. The format has a pretty bad reputation atm. A decent map would likely be dismissed. (those are just my feelings tho, if there's a demand for 3cp that I'm unaware of I might it a shot)