Please don't. That's worse than testing maps in pugs.

They really acted like that when they had TFC? No wonder it died out sooner than CS 1.6.

And people still support them.

I thought UGC was originally a TFC league, but I may be wrong.

Thread I made a few days ago to get people to scrim Edifice: http://teamfortress.tv/forum/thread/6887-need-teams-to-seriously-test-new-maps/

It's really important that any new map gets extensively tested in scrims in addition to pugs. Ashville was tested in pugs but I don't believe anyone ever scrimmed it prior to voting it in. What we really need are players with lots of influence (bl4nk, djc, anyone in the top half of invite) to scrim new maps, as they will influence the vote heavily (which is what happened with Ashville).

Right now, I'd keep the same maplist this season, with the appropriate updates being made (Metalworks to rc4 when scorpio finishes that, Process to rc3?)

About a pro version of Granary or at least one with fixed spawns: it probably shouldn't happen and probably will not be done by most mappers. It is just a pain to rework, according to them. Decompiling the map results in lost data and the SDK version is out of date. The SDK version is missing quite a few things, like the props at mid just out of choke and the third garage door. These could be fixed, but first we'd need a list of changes from the SDK version to the current version. Here's the update history: http://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Granary_(Control_Point)#Update_history

We can ignore the latest update as it added a useless prop to the skybox. This means we're at least behind 1 update, but I assume the SDK version hasn't been updated since prior to the August 13, 2009 patch; I'm assuming that's when said props at mid were added.

Alternatively, we could just make a new map to replace it, structured similarly.

Edit: Forgot to mention that even though there is already a pro version of Granary, it was bad even without playing it. Also, there is a version with fixed spawns, but I don't know how many differences that one has from the official version.

bumping

please

scrim

So they're both fake?

play medic

Except almost everyone else is saying the opposite.

I've only been here since S10 LAN, and I haven't payed too much attention to Gpit. Now that I think about it, Edifice might be the one that requires good teamwork. Of course, we won't truly know until it's scrimmed.

Yes, but it seems like he stopped.

Yeah, I made a thread about scheduling scrims on Edifice. Problem is, everyone would much rather scrim Badlands (especially during the offseason when they don't need to focus on specific maps). For the record I don't think many new maps have been extensively tested prior to inclusion in ESEA. Don't quote me on that because I'm probably very wrong.

And I hope you either meant to imply koth_ashville or you meant to type "hasn't." Although even koth_ashville isn't the best choice in my opinion (maybe better than Viaduct though).

As for the rest of the maps:

Badlands: It's a classic. You just have to have it.
Granary: Has its issues (asymmetry, bad spawns on Red), but it's not that big of a deal right now.
Process: It's amazing, probably some minor flaws that I've missed though. Scorpio, just make it so that when I'm playing scout, I don't get caught on the 2nd point spawn door.
Metalworks: It's pretty new, and really isn't that bad. I'd place it up there with Snake and Gully. Not necessarily good maps, but not bad maps either. It's also being worked on, which is always a good thing.
Snakewater: Personally, I find it fun. It's somewhat awkward, but not too bad. I don't know how to explain its awkwardness though.
Goooolywawsh Gullywash: Might be one of the worst 5CP maps in the rotation right now. Not saying it's bad, but this map is somewhat more awkward than the others in the rotation. For example, water. A route under the point is a little weird, don't you think? Of course, if this was to be removed, then the point would pretty much be uncappable most of the time due to the layout of the rest of last. This could be fixed with a major overhaul of last. 2nd is less awkward as being able to cap the point on two levels is weird, but that doesn't matter much. Mid is pretty similar to Badlands in some respects. It might need some work, but I'm not sure what does; maybe nothing does. Someone better at TF2 than I am (so, most comp players) would be able to comment on this better. Removing Gully would mean that we won't hear cbear say "Gooolywawsh" anymore; just think about that.
Gravel Pit: Not exactly the most fun map to play, but it's really good for spectators. This map really does separate the teams that get by with good DM from the teams that really know how to play TF2 well. It would kinda be a shame to lose it. Never mind I'm stupid. Go ahead and vote it out then, I guess. Although it might truly be best to keep the same rotation.

Of course, my opinions don't really have that much value as I don't have much experience.

We've been playing quite a few new maps in the New Map Pugs group and we have determined that the only new map that should be considered is Edifice. Edifice is Gpit-style map that is really fun to play in pugs. It has issues, but I would say it's just as ESEA-ready as Process was. Just fix the heavy problems and put it in the rotation. This map really allows for more dynamic gameplay. Instead of the points being capped in the order of A->B->C like Gpit (caused by not-so-great designing), either A or B can be capped in either order. The defending team could defend A, B, or both (the map is small enough to defend both). It's basically just an extremely well-designed map, and we're very lucky to have it.

As for the other possible new map candidates:
Wetcoal: Still has many problems, such as mid being the size of about 5 football fields (not really, but it's large). This map cannot have its problems fixed AND be textured by the time the map vote rolls around.
Vanguard: Probably not ready. B3 had this awkward backcap area, and B4 removed one of the doors in that area, keeping one (the higher one); that door should probably be more angled towards the door. B4 wasn't tested as it was unplayable. B4a still needs to be tested.
Harbour: Not happening, still in alpha. Won't be done in time, even if it had all of its problems fixed.
Quay: I don't really remember it. I would need to play it again, but I do remember it being awkward to play.
Granary Pr- no. It's worse than the original from just looking at it.
Torx: I'd say this would be better than Viaduct, but it's an older map that never got out of Alpha. We'd either need the original mapmaker to finish it or get the map file from him and have someone else finish it.

I'd remove Viaduct and vote in Edifice. Viaduct isn't really that great of a map, there's just nothing better and it seems like it's only in because it's a KoTH map and the best one we have. I feel like we would be better off without it, and wait until a good KoTH map is made. If I'm honest, Ashville is better than Viaduct from a medic standpoint (at least for me), but from what I've heard from others it's not really great for anyone else. In addition, we've tested Arctic in some pugs and it wasn't that great. Not any worse than Viaduct, in my opinion, except that it's large (to be fair it was made for Highlander); it's not really worth it to vote in. So I'd just make this coming season CP just to be safe.

Continued in the next post

You shouldn't even hope.

I'm pretty sure that the Newbie Pugs are meant for people that know enough to get by, while the Mixes are obviously for teaching the basics.

If people who don't know what they're doing play in the Pugs, then there's a problem. Although I don't know if it can really be solved, as people will add themselves to the Pug channels thinking they're good enough.

Actually, we already did test it. We thought it had potential IIRC, but it has problems (like the lasts having different cap times).

Edit: Here's the VOD from Mangachu's stream: http://www.twitch.tv/mangachu_/b/384110539?t=21m33s