Discussion thread for Season 16 of RGL Intermediate, Amateur, and Newcomer
Congrats to last season's winners, Zugjug, Florida Jits, and Root Runners!
You can view last season's Intermediate, Amateur, and Newcomer discussion thread here.
RGL S16 IM/AM/NEW Happenings/Discussion
posted in
TF2 General Discussion
Discussion thread for Season 16 of RGL Intermediate, Amateur, and Newcomer
Congrats to last season's winners, Zugjug, Florida Jits, and Root Runners!
You can view last season's Intermediate, Amateur, and Newcomer discussion thread [url=https://www.teamfortress.tv/64440]here[/url].
Congrats to last season's winners, Zugjug, Florida Jits, and Root Runners!
You can view last season's Intermediate, Amateur, and Newcomer discussion thread [url=https://www.teamfortress.tv/64440]here[/url].
class restricted off engi is insane levels of hating
class restricted off engi is insane levels of hating [img]https://imgur.com/SaivrLO.png[/img]
GrapeJuiceIIIclass restricted off engi is insane levels of hating https://imgur.com/SaivrLO.png
Any invite hl player gets restricted off their class in IM or below (minus med), but it is funny lmao. Also a good idea tbh.
[quote=GrapeJuiceIII]class restricted off engi is insane levels of hating [img]https://imgur.com/SaivrLO.png[/img][/quote]
Any invite hl player gets restricted off their class in IM or below (minus med), but it is funny lmao. Also a good idea tbh.
Any invite hl player gets restricted off their class in IM or below (minus med), but it is funny lmao. Also a good idea tbh.
same happened to my friend zee last season (3rd place adv HL), much more annoying than you think for your flank scout sub to not be able to offclass on last
same happened to my friend zee last season (3rd place adv HL), much more annoying than you think for your flank scout sub to not be able to offclass on last
Would anyone actually object to not restricting heavy/pyro/engi/spy?
Would anyone actually object to not restricting heavy/pyro/engi/spy?
eddiieeWould anyone actually object to not restricting heavy/pyro/engi/spy?
IIRC the reason is so players in lower 6s divs actually have the opportunity to learn how the format is supposed to be played as opposed to just playing against perma offclass teams, which at least to me makes sense. Perma spy seems super dogshit though tbh but perma heavy/pyro probably requires specific counterplay.
The side effect of course is that it kills offclassing on last which is not optimal (and also hurts the ability of the HL players to learn the format) which in theory could be rectified via some complex "no offclassing except on last" ban but that seems kinda nightmarish administratively.
[quote=eddiiee]Would anyone actually object to not restricting heavy/pyro/engi/spy?[/quote]
IIRC the reason is so players in lower 6s divs actually have the opportunity to learn how the format is supposed to be played as opposed to just playing against perma offclass teams, which at least to me makes sense. Perma spy seems super dogshit though tbh but perma heavy/pyro probably requires specific counterplay.
The side effect of course is that it kills offclassing on last which is not optimal (and also hurts the ability of the HL players to learn the format) which in theory could be rectified via some complex "no offclassing except on last" ban but that seems kinda nightmarish administratively.
IIRC the reason is so players in lower 6s divs actually have the opportunity to learn how the format is supposed to be played as opposed to just playing against perma offclass teams, which at least to me makes sense. Perma spy seems super dogshit though tbh but perma heavy/pyro probably requires specific counterplay.
The side effect of course is that it kills offclassing on last which is not optimal (and also hurts the ability of the HL players to learn the format) which in theory could be rectified via some complex "no offclassing except on last" ban but that seems kinda nightmarish administratively.
apparently kho is the medic so like in theory who cares but if it were a scout player it could be VERY consequential on a mid wipe-> last hold scenario where you want the gun up as soon as possible. if your engi-banned scout player is up like a whole respawn wave before the other scout then you’re way slower to have a gun up on last, making losing the round much more likely. (also if your medic player is on engi then u just like… dont have a medic..? or you have a non-medic player on medic to cover the spot which just sounds like a disaster if you want to swap back.)
restricting sniper players off of sniper (see: yosh in adv i believe) is fine because there are objectively much better defensive classes (engi, heavy) that should typically be prioritized first, and in an offensive position it is much easier to set up for a non-sniper-restricted player to be the one offclassing. a disproportionately good sniper player can rip an IM team to shreds and ruin the game for them. a disproportionately good engineer player in a 6s context is a scout player who recognizes that they need to be on engineer instead of scout. one of these things is not at all like the other.
the same logic applies for pyro/heavy. there are objectively powerful and standard usecases for these classes (holding last) where banning a player cuz theyre good at them in highlander is potentially round (and therefore match) losing for a team. this is not a healthy environment for learning the game if that’s the reason for restricting them. these classes are not game breaking 6s classes. teams playing these classes full-time will not benefit from having a good HL player on their team on these classes.
spy players should never be restricted.
TLDR: on principle banning HL players from playing pyro heavy engi spy is objectively stupid because these classes have very little impact on 6s gameplay in the way that the standard 4 classes do. having a “good” vs “bad” heavy/pyro/engi player has very little bearing on the success of that class being used, what actually matters is understanding the context in which these classes are powerful. banning sniper is fine as that class can actually break the game if the player is too good
apparently kho is the medic so like in theory who cares but if it were a scout player it could be VERY consequential on a mid wipe-> last hold scenario where you want the gun up as soon as possible. if your engi-banned scout player is up like a whole respawn wave before the other scout then you’re way slower to have a gun up on last, making losing the round much more likely. (also if your medic player is on engi then u just like… dont have a medic..? or you have a non-medic player on medic to cover the spot which just sounds like a disaster if you want to swap back.)
restricting sniper players off of sniper (see: yosh in adv i believe) is fine because there are objectively much better defensive classes (engi, heavy) that should typically be prioritized first, and in an offensive position it is much easier to set up for a non-sniper-restricted player to be the one offclassing. a disproportionately good sniper player can rip an IM team to shreds and ruin the game for them. a disproportionately good engineer player in a 6s context is a scout player who recognizes that they need to be on engineer instead of scout. one of these things is not at all like the other.
the same logic applies for pyro/heavy. there are objectively powerful and standard usecases for these classes (holding last) where banning a player cuz theyre good at them in highlander is potentially round (and therefore match) losing for a team. this is not a healthy environment for learning the game if that’s the reason for restricting them. these classes are not game breaking 6s classes. teams playing these classes full-time will not benefit from having a good HL player on their team on these classes.
spy players should never be restricted.
TLDR: on principle banning HL players from playing pyro heavy engi spy is objectively stupid because these classes have very little impact on 6s gameplay in the way that the standard 4 classes do. having a “good” vs “bad” heavy/pyro/engi player has very little bearing on the success of that class being used, what actually matters is understanding the context in which these classes are powerful. banning sniper is fine as that class can actually break the game if the player is too good
restricting sniper players off of sniper (see: yosh in adv i believe) is fine because there are objectively much better defensive classes (engi, heavy) that should typically be prioritized first, and in an offensive position it is much easier to set up for a non-sniper-restricted player to be the one offclassing. a disproportionately good sniper player can rip an IM team to shreds and ruin the game for them. a disproportionately good engineer player in a 6s context is a scout player who recognizes that they need to be on engineer instead of scout. one of these things is not at all like the other.
the same logic applies for pyro/heavy. there are objectively powerful and standard usecases for these classes (holding last) where banning a player cuz theyre good at them in highlander is potentially round (and therefore match) losing for a team. this is not a healthy environment for learning the game if that’s the reason for restricting them. these classes are not game breaking 6s classes. teams playing these classes full-time will not benefit from having a good HL player on their team on these classes.
spy players should never be restricted.
TLDR: on principle banning HL players from playing pyro heavy engi spy is objectively stupid because these classes have very little impact on 6s gameplay in the way that the standard 4 classes do. having a “good” vs “bad” heavy/pyro/engi player has very little bearing on the success of that class being used, what actually matters is understanding the context in which these classes are powerful. banning sniper is fine as that class can actually break the game if the player is too good
I don't think that perma offclass teams are a real threat tbh. It's not worth banning people from holding last properly so that you maybe prevent one team a season from going 4-4 in AM running a fulltime pootis
also there is no universe in which someone is too much of a threat on engi but still fine to play scout lmao
edit: i agree with everything grape juice said, and what he mentioned is basically why i only said "engi/pyro/heavy/spy". feel free to punish sniper players more :D
I don't think that perma offclass teams are a real threat tbh. It's not worth banning people from holding last properly so that you maybe prevent one team a season from going 4-4 in AM running a fulltime pootis
also there is no universe in which someone is too much of a threat on engi but still fine to play scout lmao
edit: i agree with everything grape juice said, and what he mentioned is basically why i only said "engi/pyro/heavy/spy". feel free to punish sniper players more :D
also there is no universe in which someone is too much of a threat on engi but still fine to play scout lmao
edit: i agree with everything grape juice said, and what he mentioned is basically why i only said "engi/pyro/heavy/spy". feel free to punish sniper players more :D
Agree on the engineer part and on the points made saying that it can be pretty consequential to not be able to offclass. Engineer is definitely the biggest offender and honestly just making it so you can't be restricted off engie/spy probably solves most issues.
GJ3TLDR: on principle banning HL players from playing pyro heavy engi spy is objectively stupid because these classes have very little impact on 6s gameplay in the way that the standard 4 classes do. having a “good” vs “bad” heavy/pyro/engi player has very little bearing on the success of that class being used, what actually matters is understanding the context in which these classes are powerful.
Possible I'm misunderstanding your point here, but I agree with this sentiment if people were trying to play "optimal 6's" in which case yeah putting an invite pyro main to airblast on gully last barely matters. But if you are already resigned to playing perma heavy/pyro and understand that a lot of the time they are objectively the wrong choice surely having an invite hl main on those classes is better than random combat player from x div if the div is low.
Regardless, I agree with your point that no matter what banning offclasses does make it more difficult to learn the format for the HL players in this instance. On the other hand though playing against the pyro/heavy team is surely not conducive to other teams in the div learning the format as well.
eddiieeI don't think that perma offclass teams are a real threat tbh. It's not worth banning people from holding last properly so that you maybe prevent one team a season from going 4-4 in AM running a fulltime pootis
That one RGL admin who was like an IM 6's player made amateur playoffs on engineer (i don't even think they were a scout player, they were banned off soldier) and that class blows, I feel like a top heavy player could place in IM or something that class is not even that bad.
Agree on the engineer part and on the points made saying that it can be pretty consequential to not be able to offclass. Engineer is definitely the biggest offender and honestly just making it so you can't be restricted off engie/spy probably solves most issues.
[quote=GJ3]TLDR: on principle banning HL players from playing pyro heavy engi spy is objectively stupid because these classes have very little impact on 6s gameplay in the way that the standard 4 classes do. having a “good” vs “bad” heavy/pyro/engi player has very little bearing on the success of that class being used, what actually matters is understanding the context in which these classes are powerful.[/quote]
Possible I'm misunderstanding your point here, but I agree with this sentiment if people were trying to play "optimal 6's" in which case yeah putting an invite pyro main to airblast on gully last barely matters. But if you are already resigned to playing perma heavy/pyro and understand that a lot of the time they are objectively the wrong choice surely having an invite hl main on those classes is better than random combat player from x div if the div is low.
Regardless, I agree with your point that no matter what banning offclasses does make it more difficult to learn the format for the HL players in this instance. On the other hand though playing against the pyro/heavy team is surely not conducive to other teams in the div learning the format as well.
[quote=eddiiee]I don't think that perma offclass teams are a real threat tbh. It's not worth banning people from holding last properly so that you maybe prevent one team a season from going 4-4 in AM running a fulltime pootis
[/quote]
That one RGL admin who was like an IM 6's player made amateur playoffs on engineer (i don't even think they were a scout player, they were banned off soldier) and that class blows, I feel like a top heavy player could place in IM or something that class is not even that bad.
[quote=GJ3]TLDR: on principle banning HL players from playing pyro heavy engi spy is objectively stupid because these classes have very little impact on 6s gameplay in the way that the standard 4 classes do. having a “good” vs “bad” heavy/pyro/engi player has very little bearing on the success of that class being used, what actually matters is understanding the context in which these classes are powerful.[/quote]
Possible I'm misunderstanding your point here, but I agree with this sentiment if people were trying to play "optimal 6's" in which case yeah putting an invite pyro main to airblast on gully last barely matters. But if you are already resigned to playing perma heavy/pyro and understand that a lot of the time they are objectively the wrong choice surely having an invite hl main on those classes is better than random combat player from x div if the div is low.
Regardless, I agree with your point that no matter what banning offclasses does make it more difficult to learn the format for the HL players in this instance. On the other hand though playing against the pyro/heavy team is surely not conducive to other teams in the div learning the format as well.
[quote=eddiiee]I don't think that perma offclass teams are a real threat tbh. It's not worth banning people from holding last properly so that you maybe prevent one team a season from going 4-4 in AM running a fulltime pootis
[/quote]
That one RGL admin who was like an IM 6's player made amateur playoffs on engineer (i don't even think they were a scout player, they were banned off soldier) and that class blows, I feel like a top heavy player could place in IM or something that class is not even that bad.
springrollsGJ3TLDR: on principle banning HL players from playing pyro heavy engi spy is objectively stupid because these classes have very little impact on 6s gameplay in the way that the standard 4 classes do. having a “good” vs “bad” heavy/pyro/engi player has very little bearing on the success of that class being used, what actually matters is understanding the context in which these classes are powerful.
Possible I'm misunderstanding your point here, but I agree with this sentiment if people were trying to play "optimal 6's" in which case yeah putting an invite pyro main to airblast on gully last barely matters. But if you are already resigned to playing perma heavy/pyro and understand that a lot of the time they are objectively the wrong choice surely having an invite hl main on those classes is better than random combat player from x div if the div is low.
of course, i wont undersell the fact that each class in the game has a lot of potential to squeeze out, and than an invite HL pyro can make much more of the class in 6s than an IM scout offclassing to pyro can. the point i’m making (and that im sure you already understand, just reiterating for clarity) is that by nature of running pyro in non-standard scenarios being so much worse than having the standard composition, that “potential to squeeze” has far less impact on the game therefore letting the invite heavy run perma pootis isnt a big deal/not worth class restricting in the slightest.
[quote=springrolls]
[quote=GJ3]TLDR: on principle banning HL players from playing pyro heavy engi spy is objectively stupid because these classes have very little impact on 6s gameplay in the way that the standard 4 classes do. having a “good” vs “bad” heavy/pyro/engi player has very little bearing on the success of that class being used, what actually matters is understanding the context in which these classes are powerful.[/quote]
Possible I'm misunderstanding your point here, but I agree with this sentiment if people were trying to play "optimal 6's" in which case yeah putting an invite pyro main to airblast on gully last barely matters. But if you are already resigned to playing perma heavy/pyro and understand that a lot of the time they are objectively the wrong choice surely having an invite hl main on those classes is better than random combat player from x div if the div is low. [/quote]
of course, i wont undersell the fact that each class in the game has a lot of potential to squeeze out, and than an invite HL pyro can make much more of the class in 6s than an IM scout offclassing to pyro can. the point i’m making (and that im sure you already understand, just reiterating for clarity) is that by nature of running pyro in non-standard scenarios being so much worse than having the standard composition, that “potential to squeeze” has far less impact on the game therefore letting the invite heavy run perma pootis isnt a big deal/not worth class restricting in the slightest.
[quote=GJ3]TLDR: on principle banning HL players from playing pyro heavy engi spy is objectively stupid because these classes have very little impact on 6s gameplay in the way that the standard 4 classes do. having a “good” vs “bad” heavy/pyro/engi player has very little bearing on the success of that class being used, what actually matters is understanding the context in which these classes are powerful.[/quote]
Possible I'm misunderstanding your point here, but I agree with this sentiment if people were trying to play "optimal 6's" in which case yeah putting an invite pyro main to airblast on gully last barely matters. But if you are already resigned to playing perma heavy/pyro and understand that a lot of the time they are objectively the wrong choice surely having an invite hl main on those classes is better than random combat player from x div if the div is low. [/quote]
of course, i wont undersell the fact that each class in the game has a lot of potential to squeeze out, and than an invite HL pyro can make much more of the class in 6s than an IM scout offclassing to pyro can. the point i’m making (and that im sure you already understand, just reiterating for clarity) is that by nature of running pyro in non-standard scenarios being so much worse than having the standard composition, that “potential to squeeze” has far less impact on the game therefore letting the invite heavy run perma pootis isnt a big deal/not worth class restricting in the slightest.
kho engie be like :
https://media.tenor.com/images/e104b7b07ab196572a575e5809c0944c/tenor.gif
kho engie be like :
[img]https://media.tenor.com/images/e104b7b07ab196572a575e5809c0944c/tenor.gif[/img]
[img]https://media.tenor.com/images/e104b7b07ab196572a575e5809c0944c/tenor.gif[/img]
they should restrict engineer mains off every class
they should restrict engineer mains off every class
i am NOT an engie main, just shackled by my incompetence... (also SADLY my 3rd/4th szn playing medic bcuz there was a drought)
i remember back in s12 6s, i ended up scouting for Tax's team in AM, but it coincided with my first adv hl season, so i was consequentially restricted off of engi. that was genuinely like god awful in so many situations where i could only sniper/pyro instead.
i am NOT an engie main, just shackled by my incompetence... (also SADLY my 3rd/4th szn playing medic bcuz there was a drought)
i remember back in s12 6s, i ended up scouting for Tax's team in AM, but it coincided with my first adv hl season, so i was consequentially restricted off of engi. that was genuinely like god awful in so many situations where i could only sniper/pyro instead.
i remember back in s12 6s, i ended up scouting for Tax's team in AM, but it coincided with my first adv hl season, so i was consequentially restricted off of engi. that was genuinely like god awful in so many situations where i could only sniper/pyro instead.
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