I wonder how many servers valve will provide to keep matchmaking wait times low

Will there be some sort of stats system implemented into the servers? Like sizzlingstats?

Wouldn't using 6v6 with highlander format accomplish the unlock testing? Limit of 1 of each class, you would have 2 offclassers. Spy/eng/heavy/sniper/pyro would have a lot of play time and banning/picking unlocks would still be relevant.

I get that we need the pub -> competitive transition to be seamless, but lets not pretend that match making all pick is anywhere near the same game as captains mode with competitive teams in DotA 2.

I feel like we could figure out some way to make unlocks and all 9 classes relevant in 6v6 and that would provide strategic variety, stats for picks/bans that would allow valve to tweak unlocks, familiarity for pub players, and it would still be 6v6 aka a feasible LAN esport.

This hypothetical 6v6 highlander format doesn't actually exist at the moment. If it did, perhaps Valve would have considered it but I don't think Valve wants to invent a new competitive format for their lobby system and thus pass up on the experience the community has regarding existing formats. It is an interesting idea, if it had been done years ago - it's a bit too late to start reinventing / modifying 6v6 for this particular Valve initiative though.

Sorry for the negativity but I don't understand why valve chose to go this way. Even a game like Magic the gathering restricts cards from competition because they are too powerful or game breaking. And the game-makers are the same who organize tournaments, so because they understand their own game they can ban their own weapons.

The TF2 devs need to do their homework.

#483 Enigma asked that question to me and I relayed it to Robin yesterday. Robin agrees that 6v6 can work for the same purpose as long as some game-by-game item balancing system is in place.

I remember the two times I made loops play 4v4 CTF.
When we banned engie it was a lot of fun.
When we didn't ban engie it wasn't a lot of fun.

#485:
The difference is, magic cards have what they do physically written on them and they're shipped out.
TF2 items are a bunch of data.

Also..

DotA2 is a completely different genre that attracts a different audience. I'm all for taking the best parts of successful esport games and applying it to TF2, but I really don't think the game could match dota2's ever changing meta even if we used 9v9 HL.

I wanna buy you an apple pie at lan

Bear in mind Robin Walker thinks the game is balanced by letting heavies have random crits.

Has anyone ever considered 7v7?
All the niceties of 6v6 but with some extra room for the offclasses.

i've always wondered if using more maps like gravelpit instead of 5cp would see more offclasses

why is everybody so tied down to having 6 players on a team? 9 players on a team with each player locked into a single unique class seems optimal, especially to start for pubs to get used to competition.

and yes, Dota 2 is a different game. And yes, right now unlocks aren't balanced right. The unlock issue will be fixed with this system, as it grows and develops. and just because DOTA2 is a different game doesn't mean TF2 can't be as good or dynamic.

yes. see also: 8v8

There is many reasons this didn't become the main format to begin with. Not the least of which is highlander being a slow boring shitfest.

I do however agree 6v6 leaves no room for offclasses and thus alienates us from the pub community. 7v7 would keep the 6v6 pace mostly intact while leaving room for the oddballs. It would also still be a hell of allot easier then getting a highlander team to lan.

Of course tf2 can be as good and dynamic, but the solution isn't to force unrealistic expectations by comparing the ever changing meta of dota2 to tf2. TF2 is an fps game and while there is more to the game than just hitting shots and coordinated plays (team fights and mids) thats the most entertaining aspect of the game and it should be the focus.

We are trying to bridge the gap for pubbers and comp players right? It's not like there is some ever changing meta in pubs that we just don't have in competitive play. Dota2's meta just seems so irrelevant to me when it comes to TF2/FPS games.

Hopefully this ends up making pubs more like comp rather than the other way around.

In PUBs, the game is constantly changing because people join and leave and then the other team gets a great spy and you have to go pyro to keep your team safe. There's so many things going on at one time, it can get insane. When the phlog first came out, I remember several really good flank pyros trying it out on our server and it took a lot to figure out what to do to counter it. The landscape of a PUB is far more dynamic than Highlander. Especially when you get 3 snipers on your team. In my opinion, the TF2 HL meta is stagnating because all of the new weapons that COULD have an impact on competitive play get BANNED because they WOULD have an impact on competitive play, see vitasaw, phlog, pomson.

The only reason DOTA 2 keeps coming up in these discussions is because it clearly has a model that causes the competitive scene to mix with the public scene, which means bigger tournaments. It's not the MOBA aspect, it's the fact that PUBs are in the same format as the competitive players, and it works well for all. Also, there's no "behind the curtain" decisions made for the competitive community to completely exclude certain strategies/items/heroes.

>see vitasaw, phlog, pomson.
Wait, exactly what could the vitasaw and pomson contribute to meta aside from fucking with the only non-spatial advantage system in the game?

Fucking with the only non-spatial advantage system in the game. geez, these posts write themselves!

#500: I assume he means that their presence could make previously less viable strats into more viable strats. So, for example, if Blu soldier knows Red medic is using vitasaw, Blu soldier might choose to use the direct hit because of it's ability to do a point blank 140 damage shot.

Even so, you're asking an unfair question: the whole point of "changes in meta" is that you can't predict for sure what they are--they're "emergent gameplay" and their unpredictability is part of their appeal.

For the most part the weapons that are banned in Highlander are banned because they would have an impact yes.

A very negative one.

Really the only thing on the UGC list that imo shouldn't be banned is the Huo-Long Heater. (and the Bazaar Bargin, hurry up and fix the bug Valve ffs) It's kind of shitty.

(and technically I would argue the Enforcer since there's no way that gun is more broken than the Wrangler but whateverrrrrrr)

The reason that stuff was banned is because having the game change just because isn't desirable. The rules are designed on how players want the game to be, and the strategic variety in TF2 doesn't come from chuckin a whole bunch of weapon choices in (at the moment).

This is why it seems weird (as dummy said) to apply Dota stuff. At the moment, there are few weapon choices because limiting some factors increases the importance of others, such as aim, dodging, team coordination etc.

I think they should keep it to Highlander only for now. This is to see the popularity of it within the pub community and if it is worth making a 6's version of it where people can make their own decision on if they want to play the standard 6's or a different version of it.

Also I propose a few systems that are very similar to each other. Really the only difference is the pick/ban process for each. Here is what will be the same for all of these game types or systems, whichever you prefer.

1. You pick your class and will wait in a queue until your game is ready. In the meantime you can just simply pug or do other things while waiting. Once your game is ready it will alert you.

2. You can report players that rage or do not show up, in that case that they do not show up a replacement will be found before the pick/ban process. During that time you can either stay in the server or join a pub until the replacement comes and you will be given a notification.

3. Once a game is over everyone will receive a drop item. Those items are limited to unlocks/hats/crates/misc items/paints. Strange and unusual hats will not be dropped.

4. All weapons including vanilla weapons can be banned. There is no safe weapon/utility.

5. Players are given access to all weapons regardless of their backpack and hats when in this game mode type. Feel free to bring some style to your backstabs or airshots.

System #1

Highlander six class ban:

The nature of the Highlander six class ban is that the captains of the game will ban three items for only six of the nine classes in highlander. That means if you know the other team has a good pyro, demo, scout, heavy, sniper, and soldier you can limit there weapons specifically. That means three classes will not have any bans on weapons or limitations and have the ability to do as they please and in this case would be the engineer, medic, and spy. The process will be faster than having to ban weapons for every class, and allows for a huge meta game. I believe there is need for further example in this to clarify.

Captain Kirk picks pyro and selects 2 bans Captain Tempest selects one item to be banned from pyro, Captain Kirk picks another ban, and Captain Tempest selects the last two bans for that class.

Next Captain Tempest selects engineer and selects 2 bans, Captain Kirk bans one item for that class, Captain Tempest bans another item, and Captain Kirk picks the last two bans for that class.

Continues on going back and forth until there are six classes picked and have had bans/allows.

System #2

Highlander numbered item ban:

This will give both captains the ability to ban whatever item they want within whatever class they want. This is purely example but lets say each captain has 36 bans. They will go back and forth banning three items at a time and after each has banned three, it will switch the order on who gets the first bans.

You can put as many bans on a single class as you like. The class will be able to use whatever items it wants besides the banned items.

Bans by one captain do not effect both teams, only the opposing team. Meaning if I ban the wrangler from the opposing team, it is not banned from my team.

System #3

Highlander simple ban:

In this game mode every class has three bans on unlocks. Therefore there are 27 bans. The Captains alternate on who gets two bans and who gets one per class. These bans are for both teams.

I do not have selections for weapons because the more I thought about it the less practical I thought of it. If you make a selection for a weapon does that mean that class can only use that weapon? that means there would have to be at least 6 selection picks which would take far to long. Banning items instead of making selections seemed like the logical choice because now there is so much more fun for changes within the game. Also what happens if during the selection process the captain does not pick a primary weapon?

i want to compare this to halo

Why is Robin implementing features he wants and not what the community wants. Neglecting 6s and introducing various unlocks is dumb if you ask me. Has this guy ever even played a game competitively? It's not about gimmicks it's about strategy and skill. Hell I don't even play comp but this still feels dumb.

You guys need to remember that there are 9 classes in TF2 not 4. He's just trying to get ALL of the pubbers involved and eventually with enough exposure they'll hopefully follow the 6s path but if not they can have a great time in HL.

If there are weapons that are banned at the highest level of play then valve should definitely HIGHLIGHT those unlocks and have a talk with the best players in TF2 to get an understanding of why they are banned. Valve needs to also look at the unbanned weapons that aren't being used at the highest level of play.

If anything I think valve should make a balance mod for both HL & 6s if they have to and test all inferior or banned weapons repeatedly until they are deemed balanced.

I think 8v8 would also work better for their lobby system with 6s class limits as it resembles the player count vanilla TF2 originated as IIRC

It good to see that valve cares about competitive TF2 and are actually trying to balance out this game.

Two things I don't think were mentioned here:

1) weapon reskins. It wouldn't be fair for a captain to ban the Homewrecker and then see the Maul being used because he didn't know that the Maul was a reskin, or for a captain to have to ban each reskin and thus not have bans for more diverse items. As a corollary, if the no-stock-ban rule is enforced (which it should be), stock reskins shouldn't be allowed to be banned either. Keep in mind that any consideration of reskins also has to come with a determination on what's a reskin and what's not (Original -?> RL, Holy Mackerel -?> Bat, etc.).
2) bans as compared to the pool of weapons. One of the issues that might come up with enforcing a set number of bans per captain per class is that some classes have drastically more unlocks than others. What happens when the medic gets all of his medigun and melee (or primary) unlocks banned because he doesn't have very many of them? Granted, stock medic is pretty good without unlocks, but the point is you're not going to be able to see the same level of dynamism if one class is unable to have much choice in what he can equip. The same point can be generalized to class weapon slots with not many unique unlocks.

I'm not saying these are problems, but definitely considerations in the design of a lobby system.

sounds like this is really going somewhere, awesome work sal