Real talk - I get where you're coming from and I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I need to introduce you to my main man Robert "This isn't making me money" Kotick and how the words he and the advertising crew at Activision used key words that turned Call of Duty (looking back at even the early games now without rose-tinted lenses, a really boring game in terms of gameplay) into the cash cow that has made him one of the most powerful forces in video games.

Words matter when appealing to crowds, and regular game players nowadays associate esports with "HIGH LEVEL PLAY THAT TAKES YEARS TO EVEN ATTEMPT" that isn't really high level or impossible to learn in a respectable amount of time - see anything labeled by even the developers as an esport today. I personally associate it with idiots who want to catch a money train that's already left the station.

except this community is not a bunch of ceo's and founders that are looking for money. we simply want the competitive scene to thrive

Everyone will theory craft the effects of certain unlocks forever and ever, and it's actually a great discussion to have... if they are a part of the game.

If the comp rules ever did change to cater for all unlocks, with some pick ban system, then I could see there being a huge unlock discussion community, with different strategies and ideas being posted all over the Internet (or at least in its own forum).

But it's all theory. The problem that we have had over the years, is we take the easy option and ban something. Almost the only way to actually test to see if something is overpowered, too strong etc... is to impose no restrictions on it and let it be used.

It might be overpowered one game, or even for a month, but then someone comes up with an effective counter, or people get used to playing against it. Take the gunboats in Europe as a prime example. When they were allowed, jumping soldiers immediately gained (brb pulling a random percentage out my ass) a 54% increase in effectiveness. That degraded overtime as people got used to seeing soldiers arrive to mid as fast as a demoman, or double jumping off walls directly onto your medic. Let's say now the increase in effectiveness is maybe, 15%, but you lose 15%'s worth of utility because of the lack of shotgun. It's a trade off that suits a particular play style.

The same will occur with a number of other unlocks. You allow them, you let them get exploited to shit and eventually their true 'power value' will come out. They could be useless or they could be almost essential. It does mean the game becomes weird at first, with everything being 'lame' or slowing the game down, overpowered etc. Players will get shouted at for running something outside the current meta, but just imagine it as a new game, where you do not get the option to ban an unlock. You have to find a way to play with or against it.

Pretty much the only way I could see any sort of transition working (or just being tested), would be to try a league in North America (us Euros are way too close minded for this as has been proven in the past :P). A league that is on the side to the regular ESEA. Get all of the big teams to join up in the interest of TF2. Play games seriously, but simply don't ban unlocks (I mean literally nothing, use and abuse everything you can think of), attempt new stuff. Get it casted and see what happens. I was trying to do this with pugs calling it 'Alternative TF2' but I'm simply too lazy and don't command enough respect for anyone to listen.

If it is really THAT awful, it will become apparent after a season or two and at least we show Valve that we are willing to work with them.

Have we actually gone over actual reasons as to why every banned weapon is actually banned? I understand some are obvious, but there are weapons that get banned then later we're like, "oh wait, this weapon is actually viable in enough ways to allow it."

Soda Popper - banned

Let's look at the important stats of this weapon. It shoots 10 pellets each time you shoot, which is only twice before you're forced to reload. Point blank this can do up to 105 damage. Medium range can do up to 67 damage, and long range up to 11. Without mini crits, it's still a two shot weapon in the same situations as the Scattergun. With mini crits, it does up to 14.2 a pellet, or 142 maximum damage total. This is with a 100% meat shot while you have mini crits. Lowest damage with mini crits you can achieve while hitting every pellet is 81 damage (8.1 damage per mini crit pellet).

The weapons reload speed is 25% quicker than the FaN's, sitting at 1.23s. The Scattergun reloads one shot @ .76s seconds, or 3.56s for all 6 (first shot reloads slower, or otherwise it would be 3.36s).

Those are the more important number value stats. Going solely off that, without mini crits, it works the same as the Scattergun except with less shots loaded, meaning potentially a bigger risk for missing. It reloads both of it's shots quicker than the Scattergun can reload all 6, however. Going solely off of numbers, the "bigger risk" for missing isn't really all that big, but then you need to put into consideration how well the players can aim. NUMBERS THOUGH.

What can the Soda Popper do? Running for ~13 seconds constantly will completely fill your Hype Meter, allowing mini crits on all of your weapons for a pretty short time.

pros: Mini crits albeit short amount of time. Time between shots compared to Scattergun is slightly quicker. If your shots are dead on, you can typically do more vanilla damage (no mini crits, kritz/crits, etc).

cons: Reloads slower than Scattergun unless Scattergun is reloading all 6 shots, though reload time becomes quicker than the Scattergun's once the Scattergun starts reloading a third consecutive shot. Soda Popper only has 2 shots loaded at once.

Looking at this weapon for what it is out of a player's hands compared to the most used Scout primary in 6v6s, the Scattergun, it's kind of even. Mini crits, more damage and faster reloading compared to SC only if SC reloads more than 2 rounds. On the flipside, it only has two rounds loaded, reloads slower for a short period of time compared to the SC and players don't have a choice when it comes to activating the mini crits.

Now when in a player's hands, the number values and such still play a factor obviously, but it completely depends on who the players are exactly. Can both players aim as well as each other, or nearly as well? Can the SC player aim better or can the SP player aim better? Can the SP player position himself well enough to make actual use of the mini crits, or is it an off and on situation completely depending on what's going on in the game?

In the end it really only requires actual play testing and not just a couple pugs and it be over with. When you look at the numbers and the additional SP effect, the SP sounds like it could potentially be a lot better, but ultimately it pretty much just depends on who's using it and how good the players against them are.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is that the Soda Popper is a quick example of a banned weapon that could very well find a place in the norm but was banned pretty quickly after release (yes, I understand weapons released mid season get auto banned). And no, I'm not really a fan of the Soda Popper, I just picked the first weapon I saw that I wasn't exactly sure as to why it's banned.

ps I'm sorry if this all sounds like a lot of mumbo jumbo, but I really need to hit the hay. I should not try to think so hard when I'm barely awake s:

There's something really irritating in this thread - The amount of people who are saying "Oh, CS doesn't have sick new strats every month".

It's all very well comparing TF2 to Counter-Strike, but Valve already has a game exactly like that. It's called Counter-Strike.

TF2 needs to find a niche to be played competitively. Having a pick/ban system might just be the niche it needs to get things going. Also, we might finally see the fucking pomson nerfed.

#394

That's barely mumbo jumbo, that's a good amount of info.

I've used the soda popper before, and it does lead you to a bad position. It's the same as the FaN, a weapon that should mainly be used for Hit-and-Runs. I feel that the SC's reload time compared to the FaN means nothing, as it still leaves you vulnerable if you try to attack head on. The crits do make up for it, but you wouldn't have the time just moving around in one spot, unless the opposing team are readying themselves while your are capping the point.

#394:

http://i.imgur.com/LIEDG6Q.png

I needed an excuse to actually make this image.

I would be happy if they increased the reload or refiring time by a fraction of a second, one or the other, to make the overall DPS lower /before/ the sixth shot. Right now in an aimbot's (just making an example, not telephoning evidence) hands it's a practical upgrade because there's only a couple points where its breakpoint DPS is lower than the scattergun, and you have the minicrits that you can use with the pistol or popper either one if you want. There are some other changes I would make as well to make the minicrits more complex and less "I hold it till I need it". Don't forget they're not just a damage boost but negate falloff as well, so comparing point blank DPS is pointless.

#24 I think not only trolls would ban a such useful items, that'd even be the point in my opinion, and that's why I think this pick system is good.
The overused items would be banned by some players that are player strategicly, Dead Ringer for example is used by many Spies, and it changes a lot the way to play, so banning it would make your own team able to play differently, and to follow a strat.

The thing you're forgetting to mention is that every scout player would go for the max dmg meatshot if they could absolutely get it. I was using an extreme situational example when comparing maximum damage output. I understand your point though. All in all, what I was saying is that the Soda Popper could very well end up being a useful weapon and not just a weapon that was one of the following: 1) auto banned due to release being during mid season and never actually looked at, 2) played with in a serious manner only a couple of times then discarded and/or 3) a weapon that was never fully reviewed (includes but not limited to only play testing).

I forgot to mention a banned item that should honestly be banned. I'll use Bonk! for this considering it was allowed for the longest time and used widely and often. What's the disadvantage? It gave you and other scout players no back up damage, or in other words, no secondary item that can deal damage. A lot of people who play this game competitively typically seem to care about how much damage they can dish out in the shortest amount of time. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, and by me saying that, it's kind of like I'm implying it was a good thing Bonk! was allowed. Well, that's not what I'm saying.

I was just pointing out an understandable though somewhat not that understandable of a trend amongst a lot of players. So yeah, there's your disadvantage. You don't get to deal more damage with a secondary weapon. And for what? Invincibility for too long of a time to do what you please. See, if 90% of the people who used this item didn't use it to just get behind the other team and used it for actual help towards your team's decisions, it could potentially work out as an allowed item. I'm not saying freely getting behind them and pressuring the other team even when they're technically now at an advantage (if they're on the offensive) isn't helpful for your team or in general, but I'm sure you get what I'm saying.

So yeah, your only disadvantage is no secondary to deal more damage while you can freely get behind the other team or freely increase your team's chances of making a good decision with a push or possibly a hold where otherwise that wouldn't have been possible. Plus you can also use it as an incredibly easy escape mechanism. Let's not forget you're basically invincible for the entire game it seems like.

#399
I think the point of banning the soda popper is that it has too much utility. Its raw DPS is only lower for some fractions of a second before reloading, its minicrits massively amplify damage for it OR for the pistol at even medium range, and at the point of reloading it in the middle of a battle if you miss all your shots you literally have an advantage over stock. You don't need to play with it for a week to see that, it's a theoretical direct upgrade because its only downsides in perfect play occur in small windows of time in the first three seconds of a fight. Yes, there are psychological hiccups to using it, but those are actually *because* of the status quo (people aren't used to using it), and getting rid of the status quo would make it more powerful (because there's no tactically counterable downsides).

posting again to inform you that I added on to my post.

Also, I though I talked about it basically, I ended up forgetting about mini crits + medium range pistol. That alone would be incredibly annoying, but then again I don't see that as a sole reason to ban the weapon. Well, unless you're someone like kookye who doesn't fucking miss with that weapon somehow.

But yes, I understand that in terms of regular damage, it typically does more than the Scattergun, but that's why I also pointed out it depends on how well the player who's using it can aim. I hate to keep bringing this up, but this isn't a game where number values rule over everything else. There's so much to consider, such as DM ability, what exactly is going around you during that moment in the game, etc. Like, you can't just run into the combo + demo with mini crits and kill everything (unless against people noticeably worse than you).

That's alright, I'm just giving probable background for why it's particularly banned in competitive play right now (read: tournaments). It's the kind of unlock that doesn't serve the metagame whatsoever and alters how a player's mechanical skill works, and is extremely likely to disrupt class balance at top skill levels. It's not worth risking allowing for a tournament, since it could easily be disastrous and doesn't seem to have any point in allowing. In a matchmaking system, however, it shouldn't be automatically banned, and that's kind of the point of not using league configs for this kind of things, which is a good thing.

I still didn't see a reason to ban it here. Better than default is not a reason.

Though I wish people would actually play test the weapon, I can understand how it would be too good at a higher level. Imagine an invite player with not only incredible DM, but has enough smarts to almost perfectly use the mini crits 90% of the time. It doesn't sound pretty for anyone but that player and his team.

It's a back and forth thing depending on exactly how it's looked at. My main purpose for starting this discussion with whoever would reply was to just get the word out that even if we think there are obvious reasons to have an item banned (unless it's CLEARLY reasonable to have it banned), we need to actually find these reasons by play testing. We've banned a ton of weapons only to allow them seasons later. Why did it take so long? Because nobody really cared about seeing if they were any good at all until forever later. If the off season wasn't so damn short it would be incredibly easier to host "events", for a lack of a better word right now, to play test these weapons. But I don't see the off season purposely being longer for this reason, as sad as that is to say/know/hear. Teams/players are understandably too worried about practicing.

keep in mind that new items are designed with the pub player-base in mind. that means valve creates weapons that would be fun to use for players who have generally slow reaction times. except for the direct hit. and guess how many times i've seen pub players use the direct hit.

yep.

#405 (wow this is getting big fast)

If Valve does implement this, you would think that they would make at least some weapons designed for it. It's hard to say that there haven't been any updates that affect pubs that weren't targeted at MvM. Just look at the Heatmaker.

i guess what i'm saying is when valve released the soda popper they wanted the average pub player to have fun with it. having crits is fun. any item that would be balanced first around comp play would be extremely difficult to use for the average player. it would simply go unused. valve could give so little as a mouse fart as to how a weapon affects the comp scene. but as the line between pub play and 6s play begins to blur (more weapon variety, more offclassing) they may put more of an emphasis on how the comp scene plays with a weapon before the pubbers get their hands on it. who knows, maybe putting the mini sentry back in might bring a bunch of engineer lovers to comp. more viewers = more players = bigger leagues = more sponsorships = more money.

i highly doubt that we will get anything close to the changes WE would want for comp tf2. valve is trying to take this opportunity to turn the undesirable weapons through buffs or changes to desirable ones. that means making each weapon unique, powerful and fun for pub use. that means more weapons like the mini sentry, wrangler, soda popper (even though scout is unpopular in pub play, go figure), the huntsman, the market gardener and less weapons like the direct hit. it's our job to turn these unconventional pub weapons into creative, powerful, refined weapons of murder. that's what the difference between pub and comp players should be in their eyes it seems.

in essence, i'm not trying to argue the strength or weakness of a particular weapon. i'm advocating that we make a movement as a community towards change. towards more viewers and bridging the gap between pub/hl/6s play. if we want more attention from the higher ups we're going to have to show that we're willing to scratch their back if they scratch ours. how will we make valve more money? by doing things pubbers never dreamed of doing with their favorite weapons. by wearing super sweet hats or unusuals that people will want to wear imitations of.

In dota you can buy team banners of the top competitive team. Theres probably a way to implement something similar for tf2, further linking comp play.

#407 Well roared, lion. We shouldn't forget that valve DID make weapons like DH, flare gun, reserve shooter lochnload, bargain, etc. If they can be balanced out to work well in comp I believe they will be good in pubs to some extend, too.
I really see more flaregreasator than phlog pyros even in pubs and I think that "pub weapons" like the popper could work out well in comp given some rebalancing.

Question for Sal: Do you think if someone were to develop a tf2lobby.com style website involving all the criteria Robin is asking for, valve would be prepared to pay for the data gathered from this website or quite possibly buy the rights to the website and implement it with valve?

Is Robin expecting the community/someone to do this work and develop a platform like this so then he can waltz in look at the results see if it works or doesn't work and then go make a knock off of it that belongs to valve?.

Or would valve be willing to purchase a website that does this and shows good results?

also just a quick holy shit 411 posts and this thread isn't going anywhere any time soon

It's called a discussion. It's not supposed to "go somewhere".

Weapon balance is definitely not the biggest part of this. People can use sub-standard weapons and sidegrades all they want, and genuinely OP weapons are usually known by the community. If weapon balance truly determined the state of the game, whoever ran the most pomson, the most phlog the most liberty launcher etc, would determine who wins pubs. That's definitely not the case, and I fail to see the point in arguing about weapon balance. It's trivial to argue weapons when they'll determine only higher-level match balance, since ultimately, it will only affect higher level play (which most of you will do in leagues with more defined rules anyway.) So . . . that's a good 200 posts of dick-waving that didn't matter.
Getting matchmaking solidified is definitely the part that will differentiate if this is a success or a failure. This would definitely require a way to qualify skill in-match. That's what should really be discussed.

As of right now CS:GO has new strats every month because it is a new game. Currently there is a disagreement in the community if players should be able to rebuy smokes from spawn.

Ex 1. You are a terrorist on train and you can throw smokes over the roof to smoke out key areas outside and go back to spawn and re-buy the smoke during the buytime (15secs or something).

Ex 2. On CT side inferno you can throw a smoke from spawn to hit the bottom of banana and re-buy your smoke. If 2 players are playing B then you could have 3 smokes go off at the bottom of banana before terrorist can push.

Verygames and ESC have been doing this frequently (I assume they like it). NiP does not like it.

Or maybe you could think that if we post 200 posts about something, it does indeed matter and you are actually wrong.

It is not about who "wins most games with pomson" in pubs it is about the fact that it would be horrible to play with and/or against the pomson in competitive games which is what all this is about.

i really hope that there is a discussion on this weeks fully charged.

That's not my point at all. I referenced big Bobby because of the target audience that Activision's advertising division goes for when pushing their next product - big words that attract the ears of kids and 20somethings who have never played video games before like "hardcore", "elite", "ultimate gameplay experience", "highly competitive", and so on: things your average player will associate with "esport". My point is that in order to attract a pub crowd with a long-standing mentality of indifference, fear, and even dislike of competitive play in any way, shape, or form that is only beginning to change recently, you need to appeal to them with descriptions of the kind of experience that will attract them - "team play", "fun", "cooperative", "cool items", "hat prizes", etc.

Which would be picked out in a pick-ban system. I think most people can name 18 weapons they won't want to play against. I can think of 3 that will be picked fast and easy. Pomson, gunslinger, wrangler. But generally speaking, people other than engies aren't going to want those anyway giving 16 possible points that it will be banned. Somebody WILL inevitably pick these in bans, and eventually there will be just a universal faux pas to using them.

Would be cool if they did to tf2 voicechat what they did to dota 2 voicechat.

can't wait for this :')