That's not at all what I'm saying. I'm saying if there are enough work-related reasons to not be playing on the weekends, then you should be playing on the weekends? Because playing TF2 playoffs on a weekend as the grand culmination of an entire season of invite TF2 isn't that much of an ask. I actually specifically said work-permitting more than once. I played TF2 for a very long time, trust me, I understand that the game has no money in it and you don't have the luxury of starting scrims at noon on the weekdays so you can play for 8 hours a day. I'm simply saying - if there are players who can play on the weekends (a lot of them will just be playing pugs or other games on the weekends anyway instead of TF2), then you should play on the weekends to be accommodating to spectators.

In fact your post just implied I insulted players by depriving them of a potential social event on a Saturday or something. I think it's more likely you're misrepresenting what I'm saying, as it was clear your very first quoted response to mine didn't even know I was talking about the playoffs. I don't really have any closing arguments, dunno how this even became a contentious topic. I didn't realize how annoyed you were about some players across the Atlantic possibly losing out on a social event for some weekend playoffs series. I think if players discussed it and eliminated any work-related issues, weekend playoffs would be way better for the health of the scene. I guess I don't really care about that though, because I left to make money in other games.

You still don't see the difference between suggesting something, and suggesting something that is nice when it works, being aware of the problems, then immediately appending "if you can't make this work you don't care about the game enough".

I mean, yes? It's nice when it works, so if it does, do it? There is absolutely a chance it does not work, but I think resources should be put into running these events on the weekends. You could even play the matches at the exact same time you do on the weekday (like thursday) to eliminate work-related issues during the day. Because watching a playoff match at 8 CST or 9 CST on a weekend is much more achievable than doing so on a weekday usually. In fact if you just translated all the matches that are currently played at 10CST onto a weekend at the exact same time during playoffs, that would still be better.

Much of the way we play TF2 nowadays is based on how we've played in the past. RGL seemed to kept halves because most NA players were comfortable with bringing the ESEA format forward. Same with the 1 map advantage, which I believe also came from ESEA. You see a similar principle with ETF2L and their approach. Its the mentality of "why change it if it works?". Realistically we could all play the same way in like 2 weeks, but that requires one or all of the regions to compromise and its hard to convince people thats the right approach.

Also I don't see how its controversial that players should try to play on weekends, typically when most people are available? The only (non-work) argument I can see really holding any water is that if someone's only free time is evenings and weekends, they may not want to commit one of their 2 free days to something they consider a pastime. But if you are in playoffs, especially one offering prize money, I would think that making yourself available is pretty expected. If you want to win, you've got to put in the effort no?

I agree!!! I think a fix to the gamemode itself might as well come before a standardized ruleset. There are problems with either format, because there are just simply problems with 5CP. ESEA had set advantage, not map. That's definitely too much and only really works in fighting games. But I think an entire revamping to the game mode is more important than whichever region uses whichever ruleset. The difference is often negligible IMO.

As far as your second point, completely disagree. It's insulting to assume that players who have dedicated an entire season in the premier league to win the championship would ever choose a playoffs series over their social lives, especially after scrimming the entire week beforehand. And if you suggest this and it doesn't work, the scene crumbles.

Fair, if teams are regularly scrimming you cannot expect them to commit more than what they deem necessary. My argument is that many teams will elect to avoid weekends entirely for league matches, which for me doesn't make a tremendous amount of sense outside of just not wanting to. Which at the level TF2 exists is completely understandable.

EDIT: I do want to quickly add because I forgot, but ETF2L doesn't allow matches to be run on weekends unless absolutely needed in order to have time to verify results. If the league doesn't allow it then obviously you can't play then, but I'm not certain if there is leniency at a playoffs level. This may be a similar situation in RGL so feel free to correct me. I'm just coming at this angle from a player's perspective.

E2: Didn't read earlier posts. I may be dumb.

This forum is a trip, man.

Concerning a five-minute(or even three-minute) round timer, I've always looked at it like this: when a team wins mid, they have earnt the right to push second or last, depending on how strongly they won the mid. However, if they keep banging their heads against the wall for five minutes(that's at least five opportunities to probe the point with über), you can give them one last "free" push that favours the attackers because they don't have to worry about getting run back, and then the round timer will reset. You could even make it so that as long as there's time on the point, there is overtime even if the round timer has hit zero already. If they really can't cap at that point, they've had a fair shot and they'll have to prove again that they really are the better team and play a new mid. Why should winning a single mid give you the power to stalemate for a third of the game clock? It's just one of the three different points on a 5CP map.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that a good chunk of competitive TF2 players do it out of interest and passion and that for them, playing 6's IS a big part of their social life. Not to mention a lot of the non-Invite players are between the ages of teens to mid-20's, where these people would be playing video games with friends to have fun for seven hours a day regardless if it was competitive. I can only assume it's why there are Main and IM teams out there who will scrim five days a week for the chance of winning $30.

I don't see a reason why TF2 players can't play on the weekends aside from the fact that Sat + Sun is usually when Highlander teams scrim, and 6's + HL players have made an invisible pact to not try to overlap each other as much as they can so a player is able to play on two teams.

So instead debating which is a valid excuse for not scheduling a grand final on the weekend, ranging from HL scrims to nothing short of work or death, does anyone have any possible solutions to the "grand finals take too long" problem apart from "just play it on the weekend 4head"?

TBF the original post didn't talk about the length of the grand final, nor did it talk about halftimes or weekend tournaments. Just that map advantage sucks and the UB winner should only get a map pick advantage in the pick ban process. This would make GFs longer on average actually, so this grand finals take too long isn't even really relevant.

Also GFs taking too long is only a problem for invite as everyone else just does a Bo3, so its not like this a huge problem and its only gonna affect 12 players max each season (who happen to be the most dedicated to playing this game).

And if you're gonna suggest that players can give up a weekend to play GF + all other playoff matches, then idk how you can't assume that they can stay up late (which they already do routinely to scrim) one night of the season (assuming they make it to GF's in the first place).

It would make the GFs longer and this one was already too long according to some, so I think it's relevant?
Can't remove map advantage if you don't have a plan to deal with the longer match.

This GF was scheduled on a thursday, despite scheduling it on the weekkend apparently being the easiest thing in the world and the best for everyone involved.

This thread is like a collection of "problems" that have been discussed to death for 14 years with no viable solutiotion to any of them that hasnt been brought up in the 200 threads prior to this one

as someone who works full time + school I would like to not stay up to 3am on a workday

I do try to take next day off usually, but managing projects sometimes fucks your vacation days over

RGL should do a poll. A poll from six seasons ago might not be up-to-date and things like map advantage and half-time being replaced by tac pauses should be discussed.

https://rgl.gg/Players/My/Survey.aspx?r=24&s=59
Poll

i really like the idea of a 3 minute round timer. midfights are the most exciting part of 5cp, and create the most opportunity for timely round wins. the main argument is that it trades away the strategy of sac/counter sac plays, but that dynamic is what causes stalemates in the first place. i think it's a sacrifice that's worth at least testing in the name of fixing 5cp's main flaws.

i think people need to understand that caring for competitive tf2 doesn't necessarily mean jumping into a competitive league. you can enjoy tf2, but if you join a scheduled league you need to abide by that league's schedule. it's your choice to commit your free time to whatever activities. i love tf2 and play it daily (probably more than a lot of people who actually participate in leagues), but i refrain from playing on a team because i know sometimes i just have to drop the game to focus on school or another hobby.

if you can't commit to weekly scrims/matches and then potentially participate in a playoffs weekend, then you need to find your 6s fix in a less strict format. 99% of people who play other esports titles just stick to ranked ladders, and i wouldn't consider them any less passionate for their games compared to us and tf2. i know it's kind of hard in tf2 without a matchmaker, but in house pugs still exist, and I'm hoping rgl pugs can (eventually) fill the void where that automated system should be.

so yes, i do think it's fair for leagues to expect players to mark off one weekend a season to do their playoffs (if we as a community decide that's a better way to run them). it's healthier for both the spectators and the players. if you can't make time to play the game you love for hundreds of viewers, then you shouldn't be committing that time in the first place. if that itch to compete in a league is so important to you, you need to make sacrifices and decide how you want your work/life balance to look like.

Nobody said the round timer had to be 3 or 5 or even 9 -- just shorter than 10. I think 5 or 6 minutes of stalemating a point could reasonably be reset to a midfight.

yeah any shorter timer is fine, i just mostly have experience with 3 minutes from a few pugs that ran it. honestly after watching watching wg vs froyo play koth for 3 maps i really just think that it's just more exciting when you force teams to go for more all-in plays to get the ball rolling. the idea of giving one team a free push with a really short round timer sounds interesting and i wanna see how the game feels with that.