Former Valve employee Chet Faliszek (writer for HL2, Portal1/2, L4D, a bit of TF2, etc) made a video about the state of TF2's casual system. Figured some here would find it worthwhile, I know I did.
Former Valve writer Chet Faliszek - "I miss TF2"
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TF2 General Discussion
Former Valve employee Chet Faliszek (writer for HL2, Portal1/2, L4D, a bit of TF2, etc) made a video about the state of TF2's casual system. Figured some here would find it worthwhile, I know I did.
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWwdidiSAEU
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[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWwdidiSAEU
[/youtube]
tf2 is a strong indictment of valves "go wherever you want" structure because its still clinging to semi-relevancy despite being nearly unplayable unless you know where to go but a shitty codebase, annoying community, and age just doesnt give it the clout of more cutting edge stuff
im not sure what other companies could have made tf2 but i definitely know which one would suspend it in a shitty limbo half-death because they dont want to just assign devs to their massively successful ip
tf2 is a strong indictment of valves "go wherever you want" structure because its still clinging to semi-relevancy [i]despite[/i] being nearly unplayable unless you know where to go but a shitty codebase, annoying community, and age just doesnt give it the clout of more cutting edge stuff
im not sure what other companies could have made tf2 but i definitely know which one would suspend it in a shitty limbo half-death because they dont want to just assign devs to their massively successful ip
im not sure what other companies could have made tf2 but i definitely know which one would suspend it in a shitty limbo half-death because they dont want to just assign devs to their massively successful ip
this dev seems soy as hell, hes crying about comp tf2 bad just like pubbies
this dev seems soy as hell, hes crying about comp tf2 bad just like pubbies
dgaf about casual mode system besides it being infested by bots. tf2's social aspect is still intact if you just bother to go to a community server and hang out enough
dgaf about casual mode system besides it being infested by bots. tf2's social aspect is still intact if you just bother to go to a community server and hang out enough
TL;DR Casual Mode sucks, Quickplay sucked a bit less, Valve dropped the ball.
I agree with him that Casual mode kind of ruined the sense of community where people could hop in and out. But I do think he's looking back with rose-tinted glasses a little bit. Quickplay wasn't exactly newbie-friendly and its 'wild west' nature meant that your experiences could vary wildly. Can you imagine the current day bots with access to sprays? Although at least with quickplay, you weren't stuck if the server wasn't your thing; you could just leave.
Casuals not great, but Quickplay wasn't either - people just point at everything in and around MYM as the reason TF2 as they remember it died, when that wasn't the case. Valve's failure came with not developing Casual further and making finding alternative ways of playing easier (Community Servers). The server browser is ancient and really needs a rework.
In my view Casual was supposed to bring a 'standard experience'. "You playing the game for the first time? Here's the basic way to play TF2". From there, people wanting something different could look towards community servers. The intent is fine, but the execution was bad and no attempts at fixing the issues it created were made.
No one thing from an update 'killed' this game, its just that MYM was a turning point where it was clear that Valve as a whole (not the TF Team) stopped giving a shit.
[b]TL;DR Casual Mode sucks, Quickplay sucked a bit less, Valve dropped the ball.[/b]
I agree with him that Casual mode kind of ruined the sense of community where people could hop in and out. But I do think he's looking back with rose-tinted glasses a little bit. Quickplay wasn't exactly newbie-friendly and its 'wild west' nature meant that your experiences could vary wildly. Can you imagine the current day bots with access to sprays? Although at least with quickplay, you weren't stuck if the server wasn't your thing; you could just leave.
Casuals not great, but Quickplay wasn't either - people just point at everything in and around MYM as the reason TF2 as they remember it died, when that wasn't the case. Valve's failure came with not developing Casual further and making finding alternative ways of playing easier (Community Servers). The server browser is ancient and really needs a rework.
In my view Casual was supposed to bring a 'standard experience'. "You playing the game for the first time? Here's the basic way to play TF2". From there, people wanting something different could look towards community servers. The intent is fine, but the execution was bad and no attempts at fixing the issues it created were made.
No one thing from an update 'killed' this game, its just that MYM was a turning point where it was clear that Valve as a whole (not the TF Team) stopped giving a shit.
I agree with him that Casual mode kind of ruined the sense of community where people could hop in and out. But I do think he's looking back with rose-tinted glasses a little bit. Quickplay wasn't exactly newbie-friendly and its 'wild west' nature meant that your experiences could vary wildly. Can you imagine the current day bots with access to sprays? Although at least with quickplay, you weren't stuck if the server wasn't your thing; you could just leave.
Casuals not great, but Quickplay wasn't either - people just point at everything in and around MYM as the reason TF2 as they remember it died, when that wasn't the case. Valve's failure came with not developing Casual further and making finding alternative ways of playing easier (Community Servers). The server browser is ancient and really needs a rework.
In my view Casual was supposed to bring a 'standard experience'. "You playing the game for the first time? Here's the basic way to play TF2". From there, people wanting something different could look towards community servers. The intent is fine, but the execution was bad and no attempts at fixing the issues it created were made.
No one thing from an update 'killed' this game, its just that MYM was a turning point where it was clear that Valve as a whole (not the TF Team) stopped giving a shit.
DrHappinessI agree with him that Casual mode kind of ruined the sense of community where people could hop in and out. But I do think he's looking back with rose-tinted glasses a little bit. [...] Although at least with quickplay, you weren't stuck if the server wasn't your thing; you could just leave.
I've seen these arguments before when MYM dropped, and it's always felt like sentiment sans substance. But, there is some merit to it, not that Casual is different, but that it's just a worse Quickplay. This is just my opinion, but Quickplay was never the "community-oriented" server experience that people reminisce about.
There are good QoL additions that make Casual good, but there are still fundamental issues that make Casual worse than Quickplay.
1. There's too much friction in between matches. The assets for the game start and end look great, but are a waste of time.
2. The system is not designed well for the player density of TF2. Frequently I've seen Casual matches that simply just cannot stay full because the matchmaking can't keep up with disconnects.
3. Players seem to leave a lot at the end of matches. Purely anecdotal, but it feels like I have to requeue at the end of maps often, which is weird even when the same map is voted at the end of the match.
4. Why can you only vote for three maps? The built-in map vote supports up to 5 maps, so why is there this arbitrary reduction?
Of course, the main issue isn't that these issues exist, but that they've persisted because Valve fundamentally reworked the games official server-finding flow and never refined it.
[quote=DrHappiness]I agree with him that Casual mode kind of ruined the sense of community where people could hop in and out. But I do think he's looking back with rose-tinted glasses a little bit. [...] Although at least with quickplay, you weren't stuck if the server wasn't your thing; you could just leave.[/quote]
I've seen these arguments before when MYM dropped, and it's always felt like sentiment sans substance. But, there is some merit to it, not that Casual is different, but that it's just a worse Quickplay. This is just my opinion, but Quickplay was never the "community-oriented" server experience that people reminisce about.
There are good QoL additions that make Casual good, but there are still fundamental issues that make Casual worse than Quickplay.
1. There's too much friction in between matches. The assets for the game start and end look great, but are a waste of time.
2. The system is not designed well for the player density of TF2. Frequently I've seen Casual matches that simply just cannot stay full because the matchmaking can't keep up with disconnects.
3. Players seem to leave a lot at the end of matches. Purely anecdotal, but it feels like I have to requeue at the end of maps often, which is weird even when the same map is voted at the end of the match.
4. Why can you only vote for three maps? The built-in map vote supports up to 5 maps, so why is there this arbitrary reduction?
Of course, the main issue isn't that these issues exist, but that they've persisted because Valve fundamentally reworked the games official server-finding flow and never refined it.
I've seen these arguments before when MYM dropped, and it's always felt like sentiment sans substance. But, there is some merit to it, not that Casual is different, but that it's just a worse Quickplay. This is just my opinion, but Quickplay was never the "community-oriented" server experience that people reminisce about.
There are good QoL additions that make Casual good, but there are still fundamental issues that make Casual worse than Quickplay.
1. There's too much friction in between matches. The assets for the game start and end look great, but are a waste of time.
2. The system is not designed well for the player density of TF2. Frequently I've seen Casual matches that simply just cannot stay full because the matchmaking can't keep up with disconnects.
3. Players seem to leave a lot at the end of matches. Purely anecdotal, but it feels like I have to requeue at the end of maps often, which is weird even when the same map is voted at the end of the match.
4. Why can you only vote for three maps? The built-in map vote supports up to 5 maps, so why is there this arbitrary reduction?
Of course, the main issue isn't that these issues exist, but that they've persisted because Valve fundamentally reworked the games official server-finding flow and never refined it.
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