>at that range
you can't get to that range without getting shat on by the airblast. you are talking about close range, right? I can't tell. have fun getting to close range against a pyro and not being dead. ranged heckling is better, except with soldier.
demo is like the only 6s class that CAN reliably engage a pyro, I don't know what you're smoking.
>rocket jump out if you're a soldier
oh boy I love being unable to engage

See, this is the problem, you're getting shat on at that range. Most people don't have that problem unless they're flanked, in which case they could have died to any other class anyways in almost the same amount of time (although it might take more skill from a scout). Takes less skill to pull off and is easier, but I'll be damned if a close quarters class does that. What other niche does pyro have

EDIT: Also, how about an example place where pyros have utter denial? Take a screenshot of where and make sure that soldiers and demos wouldn't have been able to utterly deny that area too.

I'm not the person getting shat on, I'm the person doing the shitting. I play pyro. People can't engage me when I hold ground in a good position; it's worse than when I play heavy and engineer, and yes I'm talking about people who are significantly better than me at this game, because frankly I suck.

>they're flanked
by a pyro that's supposed to be holding ground?
wat
not relevant

EDIT: Okay, I'll bite, I'll get my favorite position

K, what's your main steam account, because I don't see anything in legit-proof/searching ESEA for wareya/Cassette. Trying to figure out who you've been shitting on.

I play in pugs. You're taking that the wrong way, it's not that serious.

http://i.imgur.com/Lfn2o.jpg

A demoman has no place in standing here. They have better things to be doing if you're forward holding, like spam. A soldier here won't be able to deny incoming damage if someone comes the upper route; someone coming the lower route will get a face full of flames and either a likely minicrit rocket to the face or a crit flare to the crotch. Soldier's good at dealing with people taking the lower route, too, but with spam engagements pyro is better because he can more easily force people to fall back with reflects or afterburn. This is a better place for other classes with combat rather than holding hard as pyro does. You're vulnerable from people coming through the other side of the battlements, but...

http://i.imgur.com/Kc5IT.jpg

In the safety behind another chokepoint you can reposition yourself if you know they're coming (given forward holds and comms, you should) so that you can keep them from going very far or getting much damage in - unless they're a demoman, in which case they probably have a better job to be doing, like spam. Soldier is really good in this position too, but it's a fallback from the other one, which a soldier can't hold as consistently as a pyro without taking a lot of heals or falling back/down for health, which gives up their position. If, as pyro, you have to chase someone from here, airblasting them into a wall and axtinguishing them is viable if you can pull it off, which shouldn't be so hard.

I "main" medic

theorycraft mains

isn't that all medic is?

See, the problem with those places are that you have to know where they're coming from or else they can run past or force you to engage. Going lower in the first image? Just go up stairs and ignore the person or go main. If you jump down as the pyro, you're going to die. If you're coming from battlements, you can spam the corner as soldier. As scout, you can twoshot a pyro so long as you don't run straight into them. Either way, you have to have someone covering your back because they will get past you or kill you easily.

The second spot, easy to run past, easy to get 2v1'd, easy to be blindspotted from the left, only a temporary spot to be in before backing up. Generally, holding upper lobby requires a team to be there, and isn't any more effective than running another class.

Both those places are for just stalling a few seconds at most before being double teamed or being spammed/shot where you can't reflect back. And a soldier/heavy/demo could do the job just as well. The 1v1's that happen in that area whenever they do is extremely vulnerable to flanks and usually won by them anyways. The situations still don't favor pyro IMO, and as scout I wouldn't have much trouble baiting a pyro at the left stairs or just going main stairs in less than 3 seconds to get a much better position.

Also, being OP is pugs doesn't mean much. I can go spy/pyro in pug.na and do well, doesn't mean the class is broken. Just incredibly annoying to people which I can sometimes understand.

if what you're saying is true then either I have sick luck or something is wrong with pyro's zoning at my skill level
I'm generally completely worse than the people I'm in pugs with and btw it's usually mumble pugs, not irc ones, just for the record in case it matters
idk I'm getting too tired for this
>getting baited as pyro when you're trying to do area denial
oppa 4chan style

Do you commonly play with high open or higher players or just pugs? Because I'm sure that a lobby pyro will do fine, but even a pug.na pyro will be much less successful.

the skill level is usually mid open or higher, I have varying success when I run pyro but if I'm gay enough it works better against better players until they're super duper good (IM+) because I don't play as dumb against them
with my flawed judgment of peoples' skill my pyro probably works best against high open and low IM the best
I only go pyro because I can't get anything done as roaming soldier anyway

Well, it's easier to be annoying as pyro than it is soldier. Being effective as pyro is much easier lower on, but soldiers do much better the higher level play where pyros can't even compared/be useful aside from stalling ubers. Also I guess being unexpected and nonstandard helps beat players because they're not used to it for a while.

I still consider something about pyro broken if I can consistently beat low-IM soldiers and high-open scouts (if they decide to engage me) in situations like the one I gave with it despite me being so bad (subopen)

Never played against allstar snipers that are subopen scouts, have you. It's only seems unbalanced until you fight better players, and the 6v6 playstyle game isn't balanced around low level played. Skill ramps are different, and pyro is better in the lower.

broken skill curve in situational play
huehuehuehuehue

MY GOD GUYS
IS EVERY DISCUSSION ABOUT PYRO GOING TO GO ON FOR 4+ PAGES

wrangler

good point

unlocks

most high open and low IM players are fucking mouthbreathing retards who wouldn't know the metagame if it pulled their pants down and sucked their dick

Is it OP? Situationally. But that's no different than quite a few classes. Sniper is OP if you can't get to it. Spy is OP if you're unaware and facing with your back toward it. Does this mean bad game design? No, because that's how these classes function. If you aren't aware of a sniper or spy, you die. The same can be said about pyro. Nobody complains about the >180 degree backstab area, nor do they complain about hit detection in the game being spotty; but if it has to do with a class meant to control close situations it's complaining territory.
Skill or No skill? If you play the class well, it's skill. Identifying areas that you will have a distinct advantage and enemies that are unaware of you and are predictable is a skill.
Is the Degreaser/Flaregun/Axtinguisher combo OP? Situationally it's a nigh-instakill. That's like saying a sniper with full charge is OP or a spy behind you is OP.

If you want to mention the one thing that actually frustrates players it's airblast, but that's probably a good design aspect. TF2 tends to be spam-heavy and pyro deters that.

this thread took a turn for the plebeian

that's actually an interesting concept in terms of game balance/design. But isn't demoman's "downside" the fact that in 1v1's and close range fights he is at a disadvantage?

And while 1v1's aren't the most important skill to have by any means they still can be completely game changing.

yes, that is the demo's downside

and yet, the demo is still universally agreed to be the best fragging class in tf2

the pyro is good in (some) (close-range) 1v1s. yet, he's still garbage

#119 I wasn't speaking strictly in terms of pyro i just thought it was an interesting concept. I do believe that a lot of this games balancing is done with team fights in mind, and 1v1's aren't what this game is balanced around. Yet even in 6's or HL, 1v1's can be completely game changing.

And is demo the best fragging class?(I'm actually curious about this.) he's most likely the most damaging class, but in terms of actual frags, and such scouts seem to get a lot of frags in both HL and 6's.

double post i'm retarded.

I meant demo is the best OF THE fragging classes

as in, not medic lol