Lately I
What makes a good 5cp map?
posted in
TF2 General Discussion
Please, for the love of humanity, make the map ACTUALLY symmetrical.
Please, for the love of humanity, make the map ACTUALLY symmetrical.
Long (maybe rambling, who knows) post ahead. Be warned.
What MAKES a good 5cp map? Gameplay, layout, and various design changes effect a map - but there's something underrated that is arguably the most useful tool of all. Testing. Lots and lots of testing - in the right and wrong environments. Map designs are something abstract - there are generally only a few consistencies that could be carried between various map designs, like the general sense of "flow" and the amount/distance of routes between the points.
With testing, a map's flaws are found easily and the map will gradually get more streamlined and work better overall - do NOT go straight to making a beta map without testing an undetailed alpha; it will NEVER flow or work as well as one that has been tested consistently since alpha (Process is a wonderful example of how the testing process has shaped a map).
However, the ability to test competitively has dwindled near to nothing - with top-level players preoccupied in their competition and lower-level players generally either not interested or unable to test against teams/on proper servers, a new map put out in the competitive community generally will have little chance to see the light of day. That's coming from experience. I've made numerous maps that might have become better if they had just been tested more, and so many others that have just fallen off into disrepair/forgotten lands. Edifice was (and is) my most noticed map so far, but it's pretty much died out from what I've seen because people just seem to hate, not have time for, or just don't like testing new maps.
TESTING ISSUES ASIDE, generally maps should go through stages from alpha to beta to final(s). Gameplay is a big thing, and like I said before, you won't really be able to get a good map out without proper testing. Something should probably be done but I don't see enough interest in it to actually do something as of now.
Quotes and tips from long-forgotten threads on tf2maps.net that I've saved over the months:
I have seen a rule of thumb on this forum before, that a map should have 2 1/2 (2 main, and 1 side) routes from one area to the next. This rule works, but doesn't always hold true and you would have to bend it sometimes in order to fit it everywhere on the successful competitive maps. Additionaly, routes change in viability for certain situations.
Long (narrow) tunnels or just long isolated routes should mostly be avoided.
Something important to think about is the distance between certain entrances and routes from both sides. This mainly comes into play when comparing the distance the attackers have to travel to switch from one entrance or route to another versus the distance the defenders have to travel.
An important thing is the viability of a route, which relies on a couple of factors:
-Chokepoints on the route. Basically, the harder it is to get through the route when the enemies hold it or just spam it, the less viable a route is.
-travel distances and proximity to the control points.
-distance to/visibility of/overview over the other routes.
-availability of healthpacks on the route
Mapmaking is time consuming, relatively complicated if you're headed towards a well-detailed and polished end result, and can be frustrating when trying to test new versions of maps. Release early alpha versions on various forums and see what people think. If anyone's planning to make a map or start some project feel free to add me on steam for tips/help/layout critiquing and other general stuff. I'm not the absolute best at it but I could say I'm consistent. Good luck with whatever mapping escapades you embark on.
Long (maybe rambling, who knows) post ahead. Be warned.
What MAKES a good 5cp map? Gameplay, layout, and various design changes effect a map - but there's something underrated that is arguably the most useful tool of all. Testing. Lots and lots of testing - in the right and wrong environments. Map designs are something abstract - there are generally only a few consistencies that could be carried between various map designs, like the general sense of "flow" and the amount/distance of routes between the points.
With testing, a map's flaws are found easily and the map will gradually get more streamlined and work better overall - do NOT go straight to making a beta map without testing an undetailed alpha; it will NEVER flow or work as well as one that has been tested consistently since alpha (Process is a wonderful example of how the testing process has shaped a map).
However, the ability to test competitively has dwindled near to nothing - with top-level players preoccupied in their competition and lower-level players generally either not interested or unable to test against teams/on proper servers, a new map put out in the competitive community generally will have little chance to see the light of day. That's coming from experience. I've made numerous maps that might have become better if they had just been tested more, and so many others that have just fallen off into disrepair/forgotten lands. Edifice was (and is) my most noticed map so far, but it's pretty much died out from what I've seen because people just seem to hate, not have time for, or just don't like testing new maps.
TESTING ISSUES ASIDE, generally maps should go through stages from alpha to beta to final(s). Gameplay is a big thing, and like I said before, you won't really be able to get a good map out without proper testing. Something should probably be done but I don't see enough interest in it to actually do something as of now.
Quotes and tips from long-forgotten threads on tf2maps.net that I've saved over the months:
[quote]I have seen a rule of thumb on this forum before, that a map should have 2 1/2 (2 main, and 1 side) routes from one area to the next. This rule works, but doesn't always hold true and you would have to bend it sometimes in order to fit it everywhere on the successful competitive maps. Additionaly, routes change in viability for certain situations.[/quote]
[quote]Long (narrow) tunnels or just long isolated routes should mostly be avoided.[/quote]
[quote]Something important to think about is the distance between certain entrances and routes from both sides. This mainly comes into play when comparing the distance the attackers have to travel to switch from one entrance or route to another versus the distance the defenders have to travel.[/quote]
[quote]An important thing is the viability of a route, which relies on a couple of factors:
-Chokepoints on the route. Basically, the harder it is to get through the route when the enemies hold it or just spam it, the less viable a route is.
-travel distances and proximity to the control points.
-distance to/visibility of/overview over the other routes.
-availability of healthpacks on the route[/quote]
Mapmaking is time consuming, relatively complicated if you're headed towards a well-detailed and polished end result, and can be frustrating when trying to test new versions of maps. Release early alpha versions on various forums and see what people think. If anyone's planning to make a map or start some project feel free to add me on steam for tips/help/layout critiquing and other general stuff. I'm not the absolute best at it but I could say I'm consistent. Good luck with whatever mapping escapades you embark on.
What MAKES a good 5cp map? Gameplay, layout, and various design changes effect a map - but there's something underrated that is arguably the most useful tool of all. Testing. Lots and lots of testing - in the right and wrong environments. Map designs are something abstract - there are generally only a few consistencies that could be carried between various map designs, like the general sense of "flow" and the amount/distance of routes between the points.
With testing, a map's flaws are found easily and the map will gradually get more streamlined and work better overall - do NOT go straight to making a beta map without testing an undetailed alpha; it will NEVER flow or work as well as one that has been tested consistently since alpha (Process is a wonderful example of how the testing process has shaped a map).
However, the ability to test competitively has dwindled near to nothing - with top-level players preoccupied in their competition and lower-level players generally either not interested or unable to test against teams/on proper servers, a new map put out in the competitive community generally will have little chance to see the light of day. That's coming from experience. I've made numerous maps that might have become better if they had just been tested more, and so many others that have just fallen off into disrepair/forgotten lands. Edifice was (and is) my most noticed map so far, but it's pretty much died out from what I've seen because people just seem to hate, not have time for, or just don't like testing new maps.
TESTING ISSUES ASIDE, generally maps should go through stages from alpha to beta to final(s). Gameplay is a big thing, and like I said before, you won't really be able to get a good map out without proper testing. Something should probably be done but I don't see enough interest in it to actually do something as of now.
Quotes and tips from long-forgotten threads on tf2maps.net that I've saved over the months:
[quote]I have seen a rule of thumb on this forum before, that a map should have 2 1/2 (2 main, and 1 side) routes from one area to the next. This rule works, but doesn't always hold true and you would have to bend it sometimes in order to fit it everywhere on the successful competitive maps. Additionaly, routes change in viability for certain situations.[/quote]
[quote]Long (narrow) tunnels or just long isolated routes should mostly be avoided.[/quote]
[quote]Something important to think about is the distance between certain entrances and routes from both sides. This mainly comes into play when comparing the distance the attackers have to travel to switch from one entrance or route to another versus the distance the defenders have to travel.[/quote]
[quote]An important thing is the viability of a route, which relies on a couple of factors:
-Chokepoints on the route. Basically, the harder it is to get through the route when the enemies hold it or just spam it, the less viable a route is.
-travel distances and proximity to the control points.
-distance to/visibility of/overview over the other routes.
-availability of healthpacks on the route[/quote]
Mapmaking is time consuming, relatively complicated if you're headed towards a well-detailed and polished end result, and can be frustrating when trying to test new versions of maps. Release early alpha versions on various forums and see what people think. If anyone's planning to make a map or start some project feel free to add me on steam for tips/help/layout critiquing and other general stuff. I'm not the absolute best at it but I could say I'm consistent. Good luck with whatever mapping escapades you embark on.
Ok first of all if you're just starting - accept your first few maps are going to be terrible. It takes time to get used to scale and all the Hammer basics (it's a really outdated tool). It's not actually difficult or complicated, just not elegant or made to be intuitive so it takes a good while to understand. You may be able to get a playable alpha out in your first month but again, it's gonna be terrible. Making a good map on the other hand, yeah that'll take around at least half a year
With that out of the way here's a good (but oold) TF2Maps thread you may wanna check out:
http://forums.tf2maps.net/showthread.php?t=13129
Good maps require constant playtesting and feedback. Ultimately before doing any detailing you want to get an early alpha layout out for playtesting. Getting regular comp testing is unlikely (all past "new map testing" events have failed due to lack of interest) so you'll have to accept most of it will be pub testing you have to try and extrapolate from
Ok first of all if you're just starting - accept your first few maps are going to be terrible. It takes time to get used to scale and all the Hammer basics (it's a really outdated tool). It's not actually difficult or complicated, just not elegant or made to be intuitive so it takes a good while to understand. You may be able to get a playable alpha out in your first month but again, it's gonna be terrible. Making a good map on the other hand, yeah that'll take around at least half a year
With that out of the way here's a good (but oold) TF2Maps thread you may wanna check out:
http://forums.tf2maps.net/showthread.php?t=13129
Good maps require constant playtesting and feedback. Ultimately before doing any detailing you want to get an early alpha layout out for playtesting. Getting regular comp testing is unlikely (all past "new map testing" events have failed due to lack of interest) so you'll have to accept most of it will be pub testing you have to try and extrapolate from
With that out of the way here's a good (but oold) TF2Maps thread you may wanna check out:
http://forums.tf2maps.net/showthread.php?t=13129
Good maps require constant playtesting and feedback. Ultimately before doing any detailing you want to get an early alpha layout out for playtesting. Getting regular comp testing is unlikely (all past "new map testing" events have failed due to lack of interest) so you'll have to accept most of it will be pub testing you have to try and extrapolate from
If only we could teach the AI to rocket and sticky jump...
If only we could teach the AI to rocket and sticky jump...
The main things about process and blands that are different imo is that there is no point where a demo/combo can watch all the entrances effectively, and the roll-outs are the best. The combo can only spam a couple places at a time, and can't necessarily see everything, much less put heals on those defending the other entrance right away. What this means is that the flanks become more vulnerable, leading to more frequent picks, and health/positional advantages through bullying. Both blands, and process are fairly open, as in NOT INDOORS until around last point. Sure, there are buildings, but you can bomb through chokes or approach through areas without such clear sightlines. Metalworks has a skybox high flank that you can bomb from. Granary, and gully have small spammy doors of death as the only options.
Roll-outs that involve some modicum of skill, ramp slides, skip jumps, etc. seem to be the most enjoyable, and memorable. Traversing more than just flat terrain, basically.
Areas that you can bomb around in, or have some fun with scout movement are great. blands mid/2nd (tons of ledges, and platforms for scouts), process mid/2nd, granary middle (for soldiers in particular).
The main things about process and blands that are different imo is that there is no point where a demo/combo can watch all the entrances effectively, and the roll-outs are the best. The combo can only spam a couple places at a time, and can't necessarily see everything, much less put heals on those defending the other entrance right away. What this means is that the flanks become more vulnerable, leading to more frequent picks, and health/positional advantages through bullying. Both blands, and process are fairly open, as in NOT INDOORS until around last point. Sure, there are buildings, but you can bomb through chokes or approach through areas without such clear sightlines. Metalworks has a skybox high flank that you can bomb from. Granary, and gully have small spammy doors of death as the only options.
Roll-outs that involve some modicum of skill, ramp slides, skip jumps, etc. seem to be the most enjoyable, and memorable. Traversing more than just flat terrain, basically.
Areas that you can bomb around in, or have some fun with scout movement are great. blands mid/2nd (tons of ledges, and platforms for scouts), process mid/2nd, granary middle (for soldiers in particular).
Roll-outs that involve some modicum of skill, ramp slides, skip jumps, etc. seem to be the most enjoyable, and memorable. Traversing more than just flat terrain, basically.
Areas that you can bomb around in, or have some fun with scout movement are great. blands mid/2nd (tons of ledges, and platforms for scouts), process mid/2nd, granary middle (for soldiers in particular).
OH FOR FUCK SAKE
hasn't this been a thread a billion times in the past 6 months???
OH FOR FUCK SAKE
hasn't this been a thread a billion times in the past 6 months???
hasn't this been a thread a billion times in the past 6 months???
when people want to make maps, kirby... pls encourage.
when people want to make maps, kirby... pls encourage.
kirbyOH FOR FUCK SAKE
hasn't this been a thread a billion times in the past 6 months???
well gee if you guys want to see new and different maps replacing some of the mediocre ones we have now then maybe we should start supporting these threads and people who want to help make new ones instead of dismissing them like that?
[quote=kirby]OH FOR FUCK SAKE
hasn't this been a thread a billion times in the past 6 months???[/quote]
well gee if you guys want to see new and different maps replacing some of the mediocre ones we have now then maybe we should start supporting these threads and people who want to help make new ones instead of dismissing them like that?
hasn't this been a thread a billion times in the past 6 months???[/quote]
well gee if you guys want to see new and different maps replacing some of the mediocre ones we have now then maybe we should start supporting these threads and people who want to help make new ones instead of dismissing them like that?
I'm not attempting to discourage anyone. I want better maps.
http://teamfortress.tv/forum/thread/7385/ - From April. I don't think people would mind a bump so long as the bump was relevant.
http://teamfortress.tv/forum/thread/1317/1 - Old thread (late '12) but is completely relevant and could be bumped.
And then there's the map section on this website where people can easily give criticism and what else you see from threads like these. Sorry for being a bit of a douche about it, though.
I'm not attempting to discourage anyone. I want better maps.
http://teamfortress.tv/forum/thread/7385/ - From April. I don't think people would mind a bump so long as the bump was relevant.
http://teamfortress.tv/forum/thread/1317/1 - Old thread (late '12) but is completely relevant and could be bumped.
And then there's the map section on this website where people can easily give criticism and what else you see from threads like these. Sorry for being a bit of a douche about it, though.
http://teamfortress.tv/forum/thread/7385/ - From April. I don't think people would mind a bump so long as the bump was relevant.
http://teamfortress.tv/forum/thread/1317/1 - Old thread (late '12) but is completely relevant and could be bumped.
And then there's the map section on this website where people can easily give criticism and what else you see from threads like these. Sorry for being a bit of a douche about it, though.
PhiI have seen a rule of thumb on this forum before, that a map should have 2 1/2 (2 main, and 1 side) routes from one area to the next. This rule works, but doesn't always hold true and you would have to bend it sometimes in order to fit it everywhere on the successful competitive maps. Additionaly, routes change in viability for certain situations.
Gullywash:
Main: Big Door; Choke
Side: Dropdown
Blands:
Main: Choke; Flank
Side: Balc
Gran:
Main: Garage; Left Tunnel thingy
Side: Top?
Process:
Main: Choke; IT
Side: Sewers
http://a0.twimg.com/profile_images/2431461477/mother-of-god-meme-rage-face_reasonably_small.jpg
[quote=Phi]I have seen a rule of thumb on this forum before, that a map should have 2 1/2 (2 main, and 1 side) routes from one area to the next. This rule works, but doesn't always hold true and you would have to bend it sometimes in order to fit it everywhere on the successful competitive maps. Additionaly, routes change in viability for certain situations.[/quote]
Gullywash:
Main: Big Door; Choke
Side: Dropdown
Blands:
Main: Choke; Flank
Side: Balc
Gran:
Main: Garage; Left Tunnel thingy
Side: Top?
Process:
Main: Choke; IT
Side: Sewers
[img]http://a0.twimg.com/profile_images/2431461477/mother-of-god-meme-rage-face_reasonably_small.jpg[/img]
Gullywash:
Main: Big Door; Choke
Side: Dropdown
Blands:
Main: Choke; Flank
Side: Balc
Gran:
Main: Garage; Left Tunnel thingy
Side: Top?
Process:
Main: Choke; IT
Side: Sewers
[img]http://a0.twimg.com/profile_images/2431461477/mother-of-god-meme-rage-face_reasonably_small.jpg[/img]
Thanks for the replies so far. There's a lot of obvious stuff here that I've heard before, but it's helpful to be reminded and see it all written down together. Any more advice and help would be awesome.
Kirby: I quit TF2 2 years ago and only returned late this May. Thanks for the threads, though.
I think I'm still bored enough to go and mess around with freight in hammer. A few weeks ago I was looking at some old maps on the serveme.tf servers and found cp_worselands_a7 and went on a magical journey of blowing my mind. Also I think I played half my matches with my old teams on freight, well, granary and badlands, so I feel I know it well, and you learn a lot in seeing where things failed.
And given what's been said about testing, I feel like I'd be getting a head start, so BRB trying to get hammer to load freight on linux.
Thanks for the replies so far. There's a lot of obvious stuff here that I've heard before, but it's helpful to be reminded and see it all written down together. Any more advice and help would be awesome.
Kirby: I quit TF2 2 years ago and only returned late this May. Thanks for the threads, though.
I think I'm still bored enough to go and mess around with freight in hammer. A few weeks ago I was looking at some old maps on the serveme.tf servers and found cp_worselands_a7 and went on a magical journey of blowing my mind. Also I think I played half my matches with my old teams on freight, well, granary and badlands, so I feel I know it well, and you learn a lot in seeing where things failed.
And given what's been said about testing, I feel like I'd be getting a head start, so BRB trying to get hammer to load freight on linux.
Kirby: I quit TF2 2 years ago and only returned late this May. Thanks for the threads, though.
I think I'm still bored enough to go and mess around with freight in hammer. A few weeks ago I was looking at some old maps on the serveme.tf servers and found cp_worselands_a7 and went on a magical journey of blowing my mind. Also I think I played half my matches with my old teams on freight, well, granary and badlands, so I feel I know it well, and you learn a lot in seeing where things failed.
And given what's been said about testing, I feel like I'd be getting a head start, so BRB trying to get hammer to load freight on linux.
Merchantsnip
all those maps have 4 entrances into last, too.
[quote=Merchant]snip[/quote]
all those maps have 4 entrances into last, too.
all those maps have 4 entrances into last, too.
ProtatoMerchantsnipall those maps have 4 entrances into last, too.
process and gully have 5
[quote=Protato][quote=Merchant]snip[/quote]
all those maps have 4 entrances into last, too.[/quote]
process and gully have 5
all those maps have 4 entrances into last, too.[/quote]
process and gully have 5
LunacideProtatoMerchantsnipall those maps have 4 entrances into last, too.
process and gully have 5
Coldfront only has 3 but we don't talk about that map anymore.
[quote=Lunacide][quote=Protato][quote=Merchant]snip[/quote]
all those maps have 4 entrances into last, too.[/quote]
process and gully have 5[/quote]
Coldfront only has 3 but we don't talk about that map anymore.
all those maps have 4 entrances into last, too.[/quote]
process and gully have 5[/quote]
Coldfront only has 3 but we don't talk about that map anymore.
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