Can we look at unbanning this weapon? It was banned after the buff which provided 25% increased movement speed while under its affects alongside the ability to dish out and receive minicrit damage and a 2 second longer affect time.
The primary reason for banning it (if I recall correctly) was the belief that scouts would gain a significant advantage at midfights by drinking CaC in spawn and running there with the extra speedboost.
After timing it I've found that it isn't true.
Badlands - House Exit
demo: 9:45
scout CaC: 9:43
scout: 9:42
Medic: 9:39
Granary - Choke Exit
demo: 9:41 w/ pack
scout CaC: 9:39
scout: 9:38
medic: 9:34
Snakewater - Saw Exit
demo: 9:45
scout CaC: 9:43
scout: 9:42
medic: 9:39
Gullywash - Big Door Exit
demo: 9:46
scout CaC: 9:46
scout: 9:45
medic: 9:43
Gullywash - Choke (scouts to enemy choke)
demo: 9:46
scout CaC: 9:44
scout: 9:43
Process - Choke
demo: 9:47
scout CaC: 9:44
scout: 9:43
medic: 9:39
Metalworks - Mid Healthpack
demo: 9:42
scout CaC: 9:41
scout: 9:40
medic: 9:36
----
A scout under CaC will reach the midfight roughly 1.5 seconds before a regular scout, but consistently behind the demomen. These times are also from spawn to entering the midfight, which is to say that the Scout still must cross the point to attack the Demoman.
The only exception to this rule is Gullywash' choke rollout. Enemy CaC scouts can reach your choke slightly less than 2 seconds after your Demoman does, which may or may not allow the Demoman time enough to defend himself and establish his position like he can against regular scouts, who reach enemy choke at just over 3 seconds slower than your Demo.
I do not believe that the jepordization of a single, alternative rollout on a single map justifies banning a weapon like CaC, which could prove to be an exciting addition to the game.
Can we unban CaC for S15?
Can we look at unbanning this weapon? It was banned after the buff which provided 25% increased movement speed while under its affects alongside the ability to dish out and receive minicrit damage and a 2 second longer affect time.
The primary reason for banning it (if I recall correctly) was the belief that scouts would gain a significant advantage at midfights by drinking CaC in spawn and running there with the extra speedboost.
After timing it I've found that it isn't true.
Badlands - House Exit
demo: 9:45
scout CaC: 9:43
scout: 9:42
Medic: 9:39
Granary - Choke Exit
demo: 9:41 w/ pack
scout CaC: 9:39
scout: 9:38
medic: 9:34
Snakewater - Saw Exit
demo: 9:45
scout CaC: 9:43
scout: 9:42
medic: 9:39
Gullywash - Big Door Exit
demo: 9:46
scout CaC: 9:46
scout: 9:45
medic: 9:43
Gullywash - Choke (scouts to enemy choke)
demo: 9:46
scout CaC: 9:44
scout: 9:43
Process - Choke
demo: 9:47
scout CaC: 9:44
scout: 9:43
medic: 9:39
Metalworks - Mid Healthpack
demo: 9:42
scout CaC: 9:41
scout: 9:40
medic: 9:36
----
A scout under CaC will reach the midfight roughly 1.5 seconds before a regular scout, but consistently behind the demomen. These times are also from spawn to [i]entering[/i] the midfight, which is to say that the Scout still must cross the point to attack the Demoman.
The only exception to this rule is Gullywash' choke rollout. Enemy CaC scouts can reach your choke slightly less than 2 seconds after your Demoman does, which may or may not allow the Demoman time enough to defend himself and establish his position like he can against regular scouts, who reach enemy choke at just over 3 seconds slower than your Demo.
I do not believe that the jepordization of a single, alternative rollout on a single map justifies banning a weapon like CaC, which could prove to be an exciting addition to the game.
Can we unban CaC for S15?
I don't think you realise how devastating a good scout with mini-crits for 8 seconds for no serious penalty (only 25% extra damage taken) would be
I don't think you realise how devastating a good scout with mini-crits for 8 seconds for no serious penalty (only 25% extra damage taken) would be
I don't think you understand how much damage a really fast scout with minicrit damage buff can do, and also how retarded it is when combined with the shortstop (thanks to its smaller cone).
I don't think you understand how much damage a really fast scout with minicrit damage buff can do, and also how retarded it is when combined with the shortstop (thanks to its smaller cone).
Crit a Cola is OP as fuck.
Crit a Cola is OP as fuck.
The issues isn't mids, it's the 130 damage meatshots. Scouts like Clockwork or Ruwin are crazy enough, now give them the ability to two hit soldiers instead of three? And make them faster and therefore able to dodge better? A scout effectively dies to two rockets before or after the damage vulnerability, adding crit a cola would make soldiers weaker.
The issues isn't mids, it's the 130 damage meatshots. Scouts like Clockwork or Ruwin are crazy enough, now give them the ability to two hit soldiers instead of three? And make them faster and therefore able to dodge better? A scout effectively dies to two rockets before or after the damage vulnerability, adding crit a cola would make soldiers weaker.
crit a cola ubers when you have advantage would kill everything. even if crit a cola only gave a 25% speed boost and no mini crits it would still be too strong because you have the ability to chase and kill anyone. even in highlander i feel that it's too good and should be banned.
crit a cola ubers when you have advantage would kill everything. even if crit a cola only gave a 25% speed boost and no mini crits it would still be too strong because you have the ability to chase and kill anyone. even in highlander i feel that it's too good and should be banned.
The problem with crit-a-cola is that 25% extra damage taken and dealing minicrits are not proportional. receiving 25% damage isn't that much, but dealing minicrits have the bonus of not losing damage over distance, which is a huge difference. Combine this with the scout being able to choose when to activate this ability, and the extra speed boost, it becomes a lethal weapon.
Say I'm sitting on 30 HP, a single rocket is going to kill me regardless of the extra 25%, but now I can run up with a speed increase and almost 1 shot a medic from a decent distance.
I feel if the scout took minicrits instead of 25% extra damage, it would balance it a little more, but it is a hard one to balance as whatever you do with it, it is going to berserker mode a weak scout. Maybe make him take 100% more damage, or regular crits, so the only viable reason for using the unlock is when you have virtually no health left and want to go in for a last ditch effort.
The problem with crit-a-cola is that 25% extra damage taken and dealing minicrits are not proportional. receiving 25% damage isn't that much, but dealing minicrits have the bonus of not losing damage over distance, which is a huge difference. Combine this with the scout being able to choose when to activate this ability, and the extra speed boost, it becomes a lethal weapon.
Say I'm sitting on 30 HP, a single rocket is going to kill me regardless of the extra 25%, but now I can run up with a speed increase and almost 1 shot a medic from a decent distance.
I feel if the scout took minicrits instead of 25% extra damage, it would balance it a little more, but it is a hard one to balance as whatever you do with it, it is going to berserker mode a weak scout. Maybe make him take 100% more damage, or regular crits, so the only viable reason for using the unlock is when you have virtually no health left and want to go in for a last ditch effort.
I would rather re allow bonk than crit a cola any day of the week
I would rather re allow bonk than crit a cola any day of the week
it was banned PRE-25% movement speed buff btw, it was banned when shortstop was unbanned because that shit = mad dumb
it was banned PRE-25% movement speed buff btw, it was banned when shortstop was unbanned because that shit = mad dumb
I completely forgot that they changed the minicrits recieved to +25% damage taken. Well shit. I guess nevermind then.
But I do think that if it were minicrits taken and recieved that the weapon would function well in 6v6. CaC scout could 2 shot soldiers and soldiers could 1 shot CaC scouts. HL is a chaotic and crowded environment and I'm not surprised to hear that CaC is effective there. But in a smaller, controlled game CaC's impact would be diminished and likely resigned to a desperation play for the lone scout like Arx said.
Welp. I guess training wheels ruined another weapon.
I completely forgot that they changed the minicrits recieved to +25% damage taken. Well shit. I guess nevermind then.
But I do think that if it were minicrits taken and recieved that the weapon would function well in 6v6. CaC scout could 2 shot soldiers and soldiers could 1 shot CaC scouts. HL is a chaotic and crowded environment and I'm not surprised to hear that CaC is effective there. But in a smaller, controlled game CaC's impact would be diminished and likely resigned to a desperation play for the lone scout like Arx said.
Welp. I guess training wheels ruined another weapon.
Even if it were mini crits taken, it would be overpowered. Scouts strength is in movement, and making a scout faster makes him harder to hit. Have you ever seen a twenty health scout get a two or three kill because nothing can hit him? Imagine that scout, but harder to hit and doing extra damage.
Even if it were mini crits taken, it would be overpowered. Scouts strength is in movement, and making a scout faster makes him harder to hit. Have you ever seen a twenty health scout get a two or three kill because nothing can hit him? Imagine that scout, but harder to hit and doing extra damage.
Can't we just agree that any weapon that gives a player the ability to do extra damage should be something you have to work towards? You shouldn't just be able to spawn and do extra damage from simply having an item.
Can't we just agree that any weapon that gives a player the ability to do extra damage should be something you have to work towards? You shouldn't just be able to spawn and do extra damage from simply having an item.
AllealCaC scout could 2 shot soldiers and soldiers could 1 shot CaC scouts.
But a CaC scout chooses when he takes that engagement, the soldier doesn't. That's the difference.
Of course a scout is going to choose a time and place where the penalty or risk of receiving damage is not as great as the ability to deal damage.
Teams don't have warnings and the scout doesn't have to work towards it, he just has it in his back pocket.
Imagine if medics spawned with an ubercharge, it'd be ridiculous.
[quote=Alleal]CaC scout could 2 shot soldiers and soldiers could 1 shot CaC scouts. [/quote]
But a CaC scout chooses when he takes that engagement, the soldier doesn't. That's the difference.
Of course a scout is going to choose a time and place where the penalty or risk of receiving damage is not as great as the ability to deal damage.
Teams don't have warnings and the scout doesn't have to work towards it, he just has it in his back pocket.
Imagine if medics spawned with an ubercharge, it'd be ridiculous.
downpourit was banned PRE-25% movement speed buff btw, it was banned when shortstop was unbanned because that shit = mad dumb
Nah, it was banned mid-season during the pyromania update when it was buffed. I only remember this because I still have this stupid chatlog saved and I remember that the ESEA whitelists were fucked but they were going to ban it.
[19:47] <vortex> kalkin
[19:47] <vortex> can i critacola in our match against deltafox
[19:47] <vortex> please
[19:47] <vortex> just me no one else
[19:47] <@ESEA|Kalkin> yes do so
[19:47] <vortex> ty
[19:47] <@ESEA|Kalkin> the match will get overturned
[quote=downpour]it was banned PRE-25% movement speed buff btw, it was banned when shortstop was unbanned because that shit = mad dumb[/quote] Nah, it was banned mid-season during the pyromania update when it was buffed. I only remember this because I still have this stupid chatlog saved and I remember that the ESEA whitelists were fucked but they were going to ban it.
[19:47] <vortex> kalkin
[19:47] <vortex> can i critacola in our match against deltafox
[19:47] <vortex> please
[19:47] <vortex> just me no one else
[19:47] <@ESEA|Kalkin> yes do so
[19:47] <vortex> ty
[19:47] <@ESEA|Kalkin> the match will get overturned
Last I used CritaCola it had this bug in push maps, where if you drank it around 9:56-7, the bar would go to 80% once you're allowed to start moving, giving you basically a free ride to mid and a full can before you get there. Anyone know if they patched that out at any point?
I'll probably check later.
Last I used CritaCola it had this bug in push maps, where if you drank it around 9:56-7, the bar would go to 80% once you're allowed to start moving, giving you basically a free ride to mid and a full can before you get there. Anyone know if they patched that out at any point?
I'll probably check later.
ClankLast I used CritaCola it had this bug in push maps, where if you drank it around 9:56-7, the bar would go to 80% once you're allowed to start moving, giving you basically a free ride to mid and a full can before you get there. Anyone know if they patched that out at any point?
I'll probably check later.
I was wondering why this was happening the other day. I don't think it's patched unless it was very recent.
[quote=Clank]Last I used CritaCola it had this bug in push maps, where if you drank it around 9:56-7, the bar would go to 80% once you're allowed to start moving, giving you basically a free ride to mid and a full can before you get there. Anyone know if they patched that out at any point?
I'll probably check later.[/quote]
I was wondering why this was happening the other day. I don't think it's patched unless it was very recent.
ClankLast I used CritaCola it had this bug in push maps, where if you drank it around 9:56-7, the bar would go to 80% once you're allowed to start moving, giving you basically a free ride to mid and a full can before you get there. Anyone know if they patched that out at any point?
I'll probably check later.
Is it possible that you touched a resup? There was a bug with throwable items and resupply cabinets. Maybe something to do with that?
[quote=Clank]Last I used CritaCola it had this bug in push maps, where if you drank it around 9:56-7, the bar would go to 80% once you're allowed to start moving, giving you basically a free ride to mid and a full can before you get there. Anyone know if they patched that out at any point?
I'll probably check later.[/quote]
Is it possible that you touched a resup? There was a bug with throwable items and resupply cabinets. Maybe something to do with that?
MerchantClankLast I used CritaCola it had this bug in push maps, where if you drank it around 9:56-7, the bar would go to 80% once you're allowed to start moving, giving you basically a free ride to mid and a full can before you get there. Anyone know if they patched that out at any point?
I'll probably check later.
Is it possible that you touched a resup? There was a bug with throwable items and resupply cabinets. Maybe something to do with that?
It's this. Not really throwable items as much as timer items. It's pretty common bug that I have been abusing for ages.
Use timer item, then touch a resupply, you now have 2 timers. One that is full, and one that is recharging. If you use the full one the other will still be recharging, however if you don't use the recharging one you will only have one full one. Useful if you're losing/winning a round and quickly use the item. Dying and round resets do not reset recharging timers.
Edit: this is how you throw 2 jarates/madmilks
[quote=Merchant][quote=Clank]Last I used CritaCola it had this bug in push maps, where if you drank it around 9:56-7, the bar would go to 80% once you're allowed to start moving, giving you basically a free ride to mid and a full can before you get there. Anyone know if they patched that out at any point?
I'll probably check later.[/quote]
Is it possible that you touched a resup? There was a bug with throwable items and resupply cabinets. Maybe something to do with that?[/quote]
It's this. Not really throwable items as much as timer items. It's pretty common bug that I have been abusing for ages.
Use timer item, then touch a resupply, you now have 2 timers. One that is full, and one that is recharging. If you use the full one the other will still be recharging, however if you don't use the recharging one you will only have one full one. Useful if you're losing/winning a round and quickly use the item. Dying and round resets do not reset recharging timers.
Edit: this is how you throw 2 jarates/madmilks
clorgMerchantClankLast I used CritaCola it had this bug in push maps, where if you drank it around 9:56-7, the bar would go to 80% once you're allowed to start moving, giving you basically a free ride to mid and a full can before you get there. Anyone know if they patched that out at any point?
I'll probably check later.
Is it possible that you touched a resup? There was a bug with throwable items and resupply cabinets. Maybe something to do with that?
It's this. Not really throwable items as much as timer items. It's pretty common bug that I have been abusing for ages.
Use timer item, then touch a resupply, you now have 2 timers. One that is full, and one that is recharging. If you use the full one the other will still be recharging, however if you don't use the recharging one you will only have one full one. Useful if you're losing/winning a round and quickly use the item. Dying and round resets do not reset recharging timers.
Edit: this is how you throw 2 jarates/madmilks
That doesn't work with Crit a Cola. You regain the cola charge but lose all your speed immediately after you touch the resupply cabinet. What he's talking about with the timing is legit. It's inconsistent but it happens.
[quote=clorg][quote=Merchant][quote=Clank]Last I used CritaCola it had this bug in push maps, where if you drank it around 9:56-7, the bar would go to 80% once you're allowed to start moving, giving you basically a free ride to mid and a full can before you get there. Anyone know if they patched that out at any point?
I'll probably check later.[/quote]
Is it possible that you touched a resup? There was a bug with throwable items and resupply cabinets. Maybe something to do with that?[/quote]
It's this. Not really throwable items as much as timer items. It's pretty common bug that I have been abusing for ages.
Use timer item, then touch a resupply, you now have 2 timers. One that is full, and one that is recharging. If you use the full one the other will still be recharging, however if you don't use the recharging one you will only have one full one. Useful if you're losing/winning a round and quickly use the item. Dying and round resets do not reset recharging timers.
Edit: this is how you throw 2 jarates/madmilks[/quote]
That doesn't work with Crit a Cola. You regain the cola charge but lose all your speed immediately after you touch the resupply cabinet. What he's talking about with the timing is legit. It's inconsistent but it happens.
truktrukclorgMerchantClankLast I used CritaCola it had this bug in push maps, where if you drank it around 9:56-7, the bar would go to 80% once you're allowed to start moving, giving you basically a free ride to mid and a full can before you get there. Anyone know if they patched that out at any point?
I'll probably check later.
Is it possible that you touched a resup? There was a bug with throwable items and resupply cabinets. Maybe something to do with that?
It's this. Not really throwable items as much as timer items. It's pretty common bug that I have been abusing for ages.
Use timer item, then touch a resupply, you now have 2 timers. One that is full, and one that is recharging. If you use the full one the other will still be recharging, however if you don't use the recharging one you will only have one full one. Useful if you're losing/winning a round and quickly use the item. Dying and round resets do not reset recharging timers.
Edit: this is how you throw 2 jarates/madmilks
That doesn't work with Crit a Cola. You regain the cola charge but lose all your speed immediately after you touch the resupply cabinet. What he's talking about with the timing is legit. It's inconsistent but it happens.
Right but you still have 2 timers up to use, rather than 1 even if you don't currently have the effect. Unless you're talking about winning a round and getting that effect without touching resupply.
[quote=truktruk][quote=clorg][quote=Merchant][quote=Clank]Last I used CritaCola it had this bug in push maps, where if you drank it around 9:56-7, the bar would go to 80% once you're allowed to start moving, giving you basically a free ride to mid and a full can before you get there. Anyone know if they patched that out at any point?
I'll probably check later.[/quote]
Is it possible that you touched a resup? There was a bug with throwable items and resupply cabinets. Maybe something to do with that?[/quote]
It's this. Not really throwable items as much as timer items. It's pretty common bug that I have been abusing for ages.
Use timer item, then touch a resupply, you now have 2 timers. One that is full, and one that is recharging. If you use the full one the other will still be recharging, however if you don't use the recharging one you will only have one full one. Useful if you're losing/winning a round and quickly use the item. Dying and round resets do not reset recharging timers.
Edit: this is how you throw 2 jarates/madmilks[/quote]
That doesn't work with Crit a Cola. You regain the cola charge but lose all your speed immediately after you touch the resupply cabinet. What he's talking about with the timing is legit. It's inconsistent but it happens.[/quote]
Right but you still have 2 timers up to use, rather than 1 even if you don't currently have the effect. Unless you're talking about winning a round and getting that effect without touching resupply.
clorgRight but you still have 2 timers up to use, rather than 1 even if you don't currently have the effect. Unless you're talking about winning a round and getting that effect without touching resupply.
This is what I'm talking about: http://www.twitch.tv/truktruk/b/451932749?t=87m55s
If you drink it during the 5 seconds during the startup you sometimes get that glitch. It's optimal to do it during that time anyway considering everyone in the game is going to be standing still. For some reason if you do it on a certain second within that time period you get most of your charge back immediately. On certain maps this allows you to get a free kill or keep the Semoman from coming to mid quickly which essentially wins you the mid.
[quote=clorg]
Right but you still have 2 timers up to use, rather than 1 even if you don't currently have the effect. Unless you're talking about winning a round and getting that effect without touching resupply.[/quote]
This is what I'm talking about: http://www.twitch.tv/truktruk/b/451932749?t=87m55s
If you drink it during the 5 seconds during the startup you sometimes get that glitch. It's optimal to do it during that time anyway considering everyone in the game is going to be standing still. For some reason if you do it on a certain second within that time period you get most of your charge back immediately. On certain maps this allows you to get a free kill or keep the Semoman from coming to mid quickly which essentially wins you the mid.
truktrukclorgRight but you still have 2 timers up to use, rather than 1 even if you don't currently have the effect. Unless you're talking about winning a round and getting that effect without touching resupply.
This is what I'm talking about: http://www.twitch.tv/truktruk/b/451932749?t=87m55s
If you drink it during the 5 seconds during the startup you sometimes get that glitch. It's optimal to do it during that time anyway considering everyone in the game is going to be standing still. For some reason if you do it on a certain second within that time period you get most of your charge back immediately. On certain maps this allows you to get a free kill or keep the Semoman from coming to mid quickly which essentially wins you the mid.
I've already explained this. YOU HAVE TWO TIMERS. TWO SEPERATE TIMERS. One that is ALWAYS recharging and one that is already recharged. Winning a round, dying, touching a resupply all automatically give you a full recharge, and leaving the second hidden timer for you to use freely.
[quote=truktruk][quote=clorg]
Right but you still have 2 timers up to use, rather than 1 even if you don't currently have the effect. Unless you're talking about winning a round and getting that effect without touching resupply.[/quote]
This is what I'm talking about: http://www.twitch.tv/truktruk/b/451932749?t=87m55s
If you drink it during the 5 seconds during the startup you sometimes get that glitch. It's optimal to do it during that time anyway considering everyone in the game is going to be standing still. For some reason if you do it on a certain second within that time period you get most of your charge back immediately. On certain maps this allows you to get a free kill or keep the Semoman from coming to mid quickly which essentially wins you the mid.[/quote]
I've already explained this. YOU HAVE TWO TIMERS. TWO SEPERATE TIMERS. One that is ALWAYS recharging and one that is already recharged. Winning a round, dying, touching a resupply all automatically give you a full recharge, and leaving the second hidden timer for you to use freely.