I think with this move, browser-based pugs are going to take off because people are too lazy to switch IRC servers. I mean +x mode by default is nice, but the IRC channel could be done with mibbit or something (though I guess it does take more effort). Also, is the move now or later? Because I think you should wait nearly 1-2 weeks before moving so people don't get lost.

The move will happen some time next week. Once it does go live, we will have a bot inside the gamesurge channel directing users to the new location.

Also, I will be setting up a sub-domain for users (either irc.tf2pug.com or tf2pug.com/irc, not sure yet) which will re-direct to the WebIRC client set up for #tf2.pug.na

Why not Quakenet? It provides ip masking, has servers worldwide, has a webchat, and also has all of the EU channels for leagues, teams, picksups, and broadcasters.

There was talks with cinq and the people at Quakenet, a while back but there was no real progress for months. Along with the other channels already making their move over to GeeksIRC, it made the decision much easier

Is #tf2mix also moving?

I'm not responsible for #tf2mix, so it's on them

According to cinq #tf2mix is supposed to move to quakenet along with #tf2scrim sometime this month or next month.

wooo

keep up the good work.

Alright guys, the official move date is TOMORROW. Please be sure to register yourself HERE: http://geeksirc.net/nickserv-registration/

As stated in the original post, for the most seamless transitions of stats use the same name as used for your AuthServ account name that you use on Gamesurge. Otherwise I'll have to manually change it in the database.

GeeksIRC provides a webchat with 3 different clients to choose from. GeeksIRC also has servers from America to Europe as well as some new European pug channels coming soon.

***If your authserv account name does not match your regular nickname:
You can simple sign in to the network using the account name and password that you just created, then once you are in the network type /nick whatevernickyouwanttobeknownby then /msg nickserv group accountname

When you do this, you will be able to login to your account with the new nickname while still maintaining your original account name as your "logged in as" so the bot will see the stats.

Example: Let's just say my authserv account name was meettheflinstones but my regular nickname was elmo, what you would do is fill out that form with meettheflinstones and whatever password you want. Then, when you go to the webclient, http://webchat.geeksirc.net/tf2.pug.na , click something that says "I have a password" or "Password" or "Login to Services". You would then fill in the username/nickname with meettheflinstones and your password to password. Once you have done that, you go and type directly in the channel /nick elmo and then do /msg NickServ group meettheflinstones

After doing this, you will be able to login with elmo and your password.

*Note, the webchat that is most similar to GameSurge is qwebirc which is the blue block all the way on the right.

So we are effectively dividing the NA TF2 community by using two separate IRC networks - Fog & cinq please confirm?

Can this not happen, please?

#tf2.mix.nahl, #tf2.pug.nahl, #tf2.pug.na, #tf2.mix.eu, #tf2.mix.euhl, #tf2ringer, are going to GeeksIRC while #tf2mix and possibly #tf2scrim are going to quakenet. We could always start an NA 6s channel on GeeksIRC but I'd rather find a way to come to terms with Cinq before doing something like that. For reasons beyond my knowledge Cinq has a desire to move to quakenet, when in reality the back end of their network is, well... not the best to say the least. The IRC Daemon is ancient, they have 0 services, the opers are not the friendliest, and the network was originally created for non-bot use (there used to be a rule about not having bots). It's pretty much impossible to move all the channels to QuakeNet as the bot are already programmed for universal services, such as what GeeksIRC and GameSurge(to an extent) provide. And since a good chunk of the channels have already settled in (EU will start this week) we can't relocate them and cause havoc (let alone reprogram all the bots to somehow work on quakenet without getting g-lined for excessive flood). The point is, I've tried to reason with cinq, I've told him the problem with ATF2L (which quiet frankly could be solved by gamesurge) yet I have no way to prove our services otherwise. Yes, GeeksIRC is new but the staff is not to IRC. The network is pretty much a mosh of users that have been on the net for years, and know all the back ends and tricks of IRC and the services. Are we the largest network? No, not by a long shot. But we are growing and with our user satisfaction and the perks of trusted unthrottled bots, I can safely say that the network will continue to grow and branch out to other communities.

This seems like a bad idea. Moving an already-established system to a completely different network is a rough move on its own, but you're planning to move it to a brand new network that is untested and unproven, as well as that network's admins. You're also moving it to a network that is different from where other TF2 irc channels exist.

Basically, when the moves are completed, a person wanting to be in the pug channels and the scrim channel will have to connect to quakenet, join tf2mix and tf2scrim, then also connect to geeksirc to join pug.na. It's convoluted and messy, and offers nothing above what's already offered by gamesurge. Hiding your address is a simple process.

We know gamesurge isn't going anywhere. We know gamesurge admins aren't abusive and power-hungry, ready to dole out bans on a whim. We know that gamesurge admins aren't farming IPs that they can later abuse. We also know that blindtalent's anti-proxy bot sometimes generates false-positives. Right now, if there is a false positive, that user just needs to create a gamesurge account (which takes 5 minutes) to circumvent the ban. What will that process entail when the proxy bot is also an IRC admin and the users get banned from the entire network? Why does a channel admin need to see the IP of every user? This is a completely unnecessary power.

What about old players returning to TF2 who join gamesurge and realize the channels don't exist? Are you intending to leave a redirection bot in the old channel on the old network forever?

I get that you want the shiny new features as an admin, and IPs of users being hidden from other regular users is a good feature, but this is a step in the wrong direction that offers nothing else to the users except a hassle.

BlindSight - I am not challenging GeeksIRC potentially being better in the long term. What I do not understand is the cost / benefit of dividing the 6s community into fragments, since we have a Gamesurge system that works. Sure it does not do my laundry for me, but if I want to pug or find a scrim, historically it has done the job consistently.

I think what Smaka is saying is, change and dilution of NA TF2 channels amongst different IRC networks for the 6s community adds nothing for your 6s non-admin user. It may, and likely will, create issues.

#tf2.pug.na, #tf2mix & #tf2scrim, arguably the top 3 NA TF2 irc channels, are owned by individuals who do a fine job of keeping them up and running. I appreciate the organizers and owners in energy in maintaining these channels, yet these channels are used by the entire community. As such, the community should be at least consulted for feedback prior to any decisions being made.

Summary: Gamesurge works fine as is. New changes do not add value for your average TF2 user. Recommend to not divide NA TF2 community by splitting channel groups into separate IRC networks, other than Gamesurge.

This should be interesting. I really think all tf2 related channels should be on the same server; hopefully that happens.

1) Fog is incorrect, channel founders (or any channel ops for that matter) can not see IP addresses. Only IRC Operators can see IPs.
2) The channels have decided that they want to move themselves, and they selected GeeksIRC so don't point your finger at me.
3) "What will that process entail when the proxy bot is also an IRC admin and the users get banned from the entire network?" I have no idea what you mean by this sentence, the bot does not exist on our network as it does not need it.
4) I plan on removing the redirect bot from #tf2.mix.nahl by the end of the week and just reset the topic.
5) I am already staff on GameSurge, so I really am not loosing much...
6) The network has been tested and proven, it just received a new name a few months ago.
7) If 80% of the channel want to move to GeeksIRC and #tf2mix and #tf2scrim want to go to quakenet, then that is their own prerogative.
8) The bot technically has no false positives as it checks through known dnsbl (black list) databases, and as soon as it detects it, it automatically kicks in. (I realize, some users don't know they are there but as you said I'd rather have them sign up for an account then remove the bot and have another botnet/spam attack)
9) When old players return they will just read the topic and move on, not a big deal and for most pug players it's simply just adding a new favorite in their browser.
10) tf2mix is moving because their system (atf2) does not work with GameSurge, so you don't need to blame me for that one.

The point is the network has been around for a while, it just received a new name and new servers. Believe it or not, but the TF2 community is not the only community on it so it's not like I created a glorified network for TF2.

From the SpamMaster8000 Bot Developer:

Spammaster8000 A.K.A AntiTOR-Bot - The bot was designed to remove spam users from the channel that were not registered with AuthServ. The bot could detect the users IP addresses because the GameSurge IRC network did not cloak non-registered users. Sometimes false positives can happen. The GeeksIRC network uses an IRC server daemon that has this functionality built in and will not allow the users to connect to the network to begin with. Basically this bot was designed specifically for GameSurge because of the lack of protection from spammers.

On another note, people that have connected to our network have NOT had an issue with our spam protection yet.

Unrelated to the IRC change but:
nominate doesn't work
revote doesn't work
map rotation is outdated (remove warmfront and ashville, update snakewater to final1)
using #1-9 for voting consistently makes people misvote trying to change weapons
edit: 2/3 of the servers are chicago despite dallas providing fairer pings

http://puu.sh/5sFaF.png

Uh huh.

GameSurge has those channels at the top of the list as well. The widget that shows "Top Channels - By Most People" is just a compiled /list of the top 5 public channels with the most people in it. Also, its going on 11PM on the West Coast, and 2AM on the east coast. Also the channel /list stats get updated every 4 minutes or so.

Also

http://puu.sh/5sFLl.png

What's your whole point in all this anyways?

I see what you are saying, but either way about it's Cinq that want's to move. It is his decision, not mine. The other channels wanted to move as well so they chose us. Cinq tried to talk them in to QuakeNet, but they saw the incompatibilities and decided to go to GeeksIRC. The point is, it is not me splitting the network it's the channel owners. All I am doing is just running another network, which appeals to them. And since the majority of channels are moving to GeeksIRC, I really can't say that I'm the one causing the fragmentations.

smakers, your point's well made. However, while GameSurge is neither terrible nor abusive, it's a legacy system, the operators are incredibly slow to respond (in my experience), and small problems tend to persist for months.

GeeksIRC is new. It's small size and new status means that the operators are INCREDIBLY responsive (when #tf2.mix.nahl moved, the channel operators were there to resolve any hiccup with users' stats or client issues - GameSurge operators would've said "google it" or not responded at all). Small problems (even if they occur at incredibly odd hours of the night) are resolved nearly immediately.

This aside, both your point and brownymaster's point seem to be a call for a better webchat interface. atf2 did a lot to boost the usership of irc pugs by making them easier to use. Something like that but for multiple networks would be wonderful.

Blindtalent, I understand and appreciate what you already do for the community. None of my post is intended to be a shot against you or to claim that I think you would abuse the influx of data you'll get as a primary IRC operator on the new network. In response to your points:

1) Good. Nobody should have access other than IRC ops.
2) OK.
3 and 8) I'll touch on this below.
4 and 9) Removing the redirect and fully migrating to the new server means the existing channel will die in 30-60 days and ChanServ will leave, meaning old players returning will not see a topic.
5) Great, but who's to say that you or any other GeeksIRC admins won't become power hungry when you're on your own fresh network with no senior admins keeping you in check? Again, I'm not suggesting that you will--just saying it's a possibility.
6) The network has not been tested and proven by the TF2 community; GameSurge has.
7) I understand you have no control there.
10) OK.

In reference to points 3 and 8... You say the bot has no false positives, but you go on to say that it does. I can assure you--it most certainly does. They are few and far between, but they are definitely false positives from the standpoint that the current owner of a blacklisted IP is unable to join even though he is not infected. Perhaps a prior owner of the IP was infected or was a spam-bot, etc...

That's not to say the bot is doing a bad job, but it's certainly going to be a hassle for that user. Currently, if he is banned from the channel, he/she can message me or someone else and ask for help. I can very quickly walk him/her through the process of creating a gamesurge account and that person can rejoin within 5 minutes. On the new network, where you have confirmed that user will be unable to connect to the server, that user will now most likely be presented with an e-mail address where he/she has to e-mail the geeksirc staff and wait for further instructions.

Let me give you an example: Today, cozen was banned from pug.nahl. I told him how to fix the problem, but he had already talked to you.

<cozen> blindsight> So your IP address is in some known spam databases
<cozen> <blindsight> http://www.spamhaus.org/query/ip/173.66.58.37
<cozen> <blindsight> you just got there, check why its happening, fix it, then remove your ip

Your instructions there are pretty clear to me. He looks on the page, reads up about what could have gotten his IP there in the first place, and then he uses the listed 'removal method' to help get his IP address off the list.

What if it's not his system that's infected? What if he's got a dynamic IP from his ISP and someone else in his pool is infected? In his case, the first list won't even allow him to remove his IP by policy. The second list is actually super informative and helpful as far as getting his IP removed, but it also warns that repeated removals and re-detections will result in the removal function being disabled. What if he removes his IP and the infected system in his pool gets it re-added?

In the current scenario, he will be just fine by creating a GameSurge account, which takes around 5 minutes. He can go back to playing in 5 minutes. On your network, he will likely be unable to play for hours, days, weeks, or even forever.

Please do understand, I am not trying to change your mind, BT. I understand that you did put some pressure on the channel admins to migrate to your service but that it's their call in the end. I don't want this to seem like finger-pointing and calling you out specifically on that. I just want them to consider the negatives before making the move.

We don't use the bot anymore on GeeksIRC. I know I should have told him to create an account, but I was in the middle of a project and half way out the door so I was not thinking straight. He has been on our network with no problems at all. As for 4) and 9) I am going to have +P set so that does not happen. As for 5) we put our staff through a long trial period and see how they do, giving them power in increments while being monitored. The current opers have been known users across the networks I have been on as well as personal friends, so I am fully confident that they will not turn. As for 6) I still don't see what you're trying to push if they are the ones that want to move in the first place. (they were looking at networks anyways so I suggested GeeksIRC). There has been no problems with the current anti-spam system in place (which is on many other networks, so its not just us that uses it). Also, why do you keep calling me blindtalent?

Wow, I just had to double look at your name too. I thought blindtalent was back until I read the last sentence.

1 and 2)I had not received any reports to these issues prior to this post.
3) Snakewater was just made official a few days ago, and I'll update the rotation shortly. As for warmfront/ashville, people still like to play those maps (the rotation isn't strictly ESEA maps only)
4) What other buttons can be used in place of the numbers?
5) "Fairer pings" is subjective to location of the user. Also those are the servers that were provided to us from our sponsor. Unless we're able to get another server from them, we're sticking with the current server setup

it's interesting most people prefer dallas over chicago. are most tf2ers from the south or something? because most people of the united states (and all of canada) are closer to chicago

edit: dallas is simply more central geographically, so i guess it's fairer to the west coast people...

I get 80 ping to Chi servers and like 60 to Dallas.

F keys if possible. Some pub servers start the voting numbers at 4 rather than 1.
I get that the servers are limited by more than personal selection but fairer pings are subjective to all the users, so unless you're playing in a pug that magically has zero people living in the western half of the U.S. then Dallas is superior.