4v4's a shitfest with a pyro too

Wrangler was never a problem in the 4v4 PUGs I participated in which was composed of mostly Gold+ - Plat people so I dunno. Whenever people tried what you suggested you'd just build an actual uber and go in and shit on everything, and coordinating with a Spy is way easier when there's only 4 people talking.

Also Ax is probably coz Pyro rapes in 4v4, but I feel like against good people you'd use Powerjack anyways so I dunno. If they could makes Heavy & Medic allowed at the same time (by banning most of the Heavy unlocks that makes that combo too good if they had to do something), Pyro would be less used all the time since Pyro has trouble against Heavy. Right now if you go Heavy you forfeit a Medic, and forfeiting a Medic means the Pyro is going to do even better usually.

Regardless, I think 4v4 is really really fun. Very fast paced (usually) and lots of class switching in and out.

wrangler why?

Medic + heavy isnt allowed? Or is it in ugc? It wasnt in the original 4v4 atleast...and it worked fine

Edit: I cant read and thought he said med + heavy, but still it is fine this way, never had problems in koth the only problem was pyro being op.

Was watching Sal cast some 4v4 just now. And 4v4 looks like an empty pub server with just enough people so you can dm other people. Otherwise it's interesting, I guess.

It seems like it would be a lot of fun to play, but I don't know if it could compare to the level of competition that 6v6 has. I don't know if that's just because it's untested or because it's too chaotic.

i don't think it's supposed to compare, i'm taking an *extended break* from comp tf2 but still playing casually in a 4's league

it's koth though.

90% of the time a engi's sentry is going to go down before he even gets a chance to get it to level one.

so the chances of a engi actually getting a sentry to level three and wrangling it is slim to none.

i don't see any problem with the banlist

anyone puggin' this format? I dont think i'd play it in a league but it seems fun for a more relaxed and less serious approach.

I pugged it once, didn't have fun. I couldn't help but feel like I was in a dying pub.

Pyro too good in 4v4?

I've yet to play it but I found it a LOT of fun to watch. A lot easier to follow for newcomers, and all the classswitching and lean banlist is also very appealing to them. I would very much like to see this evolve and would love to see more casted streams.

I've been doing pugs about every other night. We've found that koth_badlands is one of the worst koth map for it, and even coalplant is sub par. Viaduct whitefrost and airfield among the best.

Funny to see the quick fix banned. It was pretty much the only used medigun with kritz being the tactical alternative to overcome it.

4v4 should be played how we did it back in the early days of Quake and Quake 3 Fortress. Some of the most enjoyable and funnest games were in this format. Perhaps 4v4 can be used to bring CTF back a little?

Play it Off vs Def. Each team gets a turn attacking and defending for a set time period. Most caps wins.

CTF really needs a lot of help to be fun in TF2, it doesn't work with the current maps and game mechanics.
There's no conc jumping in TF2, movement is heavily restricted, you can't throw the flag, and dying is punished so heavily (spawn times++) that you miss all of the fun aspects of prolonged flag pulls and breaking through a layered defense from previous fortress games. There's no finesse in the meta game in TF2, it's all brute force. You need to clear the defense in a slow, controlled push to get the flag, and then it's usually a coast to coast pull if you get it. It's just not very fun.

For perspective in typical 4v4's in TFC the offensive players often each make 35-50 individual 'runs' during a 15 minute round. You die 35-50 times from attacking the enemy base in 15 minutes and that's not at all viewed as a negative. (example: http://www.blarghalyzer.org/parsedlogs/l1121000/). It's not out of the question to see 50 flag touches by the offense in a single 15 minute round in TFC...I'm not sure there's been 50 flag touches for all the TF2 CTF matches in a given week combined.

The only way a more enjoyable CTF can be achieved in TF2 is with specially created maps geared for O vs D.
I played around with a map with a built in O vs D game mode before that had shorter spawn times for offense and defense (offense was instant), but it was still too slow.

I last was experimenting with an O vs D CTF map that had some areas with 'conc jump pads' that introduced some ramp sliding and finesse options in certain areas of the map. I may revisit it if this 4v4 gamemode is a popular thing as it could be a good match for it.

TL;DR TF2 CTF sucks, you need specially catered maps to make it fun in 4v4

i was talking with one of the guys helping with the league or helping getting everything up and going and he basically said they were working on setting up new maps but since it was so new they were mainly going to be playing on KOTH maps for the time being.

4v4 + custom maps could be really interesting to watch...

4v4 on sd_doomsday

Make it happen.

admittedly much better in 4v4
mostly a dm-fest though, medic is almost irrelevant
sniper+scout+jumping classes to win

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndZoP4yctqA

http://livelighter.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/happy-eating-pizza.jpg

??????? You're trying to argue something about TF2 relative to TFC that is completely divorced from your points, please fix.

Beggars bazooka is really OP. I see this getting banned really quickly because there's no dedicated heavy for a team, so nobody can shoot this soldier out of the sky that's gonna shoot 4 rockets at everyone and keep firing them because the damn thing doesn't have a clip.

Can you clarify what you mean exactly? I'm not sure why you provided random quotes out of order, what are you getting at?

TF2 rewards slow controlled pushes due to the mechanics surrounding movement, respawn times etc. You can't finesse your way around defenders, you must use brute force (dm) every time. This leads to less variety and less fun in CTF modes in TF2.

Fast pacing in CTF is one aspect that TF2 cannot achieve due to these mechanics, as compared to TFC.

Providing perspective on the kind of pace common in TFC CTF rounds, (which are a freaking blast) seems pretty well connected.

I'm saying that your examples about TF2 CTF are ambiguous and don't mean anything. I provided the (not random) quotes out of order because they were an example of a lack of communication which could be easily construed as self-contradiction. A lot of people don't like dying 50 times before they accomplish something. A lot of people don't like to need advanced movement skills just to engage the objective properly.

TF2 rewards slow controlled pushes due to how easy it is to die and the punishments for dying. If it's harder to die or the punishments for dying are lesser, it's not a problem, and map design can do either -- low respawns, tactical advantages for attackers instead of defenders like every god damn last CTF map in the game gives, etc -- this is still assuming that you don't want to require slow controlled pushes for the map to work, which I only partially agree with. Thank you for finally explaining what "brute force" means to you, though I disagree with what it means and what you're saying about it.

Would be nice if you gave some kind of concrete example instead of just drawing the conclusion that push based gameplay gives TF2 less variety and less "fun" in CTF modes in TF2. What reduces the variety? What reduces the fun? Do you like jellonoxioing into the intelligence just to die 10 time before you even take it out of the base, thanks to the high respawns and fast movement in TFC? Do you like killing the same people over and over again before they finally get it right and escape with the intelligence? Both are reasonable ideas, but you're not giving anyone anything to work with here, you're just stating your opinions as facts without direct reasons for them.

Where did fast pacing come from? The only time I've hard you talk about CTF being fun when it's fast is with regards to movement. In that case, you're stating that fast paced CTF is something TF2 cannot achieve in comparison to TFC, without any reason for it. If I recall, the last things you mentioned were slow controlled pushes and "variety" and "fun". Please explain how these things or lack thereof make TF2 CTF necessarily slower than TFC CTF. Don't simply say that it is.

In your original post I see a perspective which was poorly communicated due to lack of sufficient explanation. Something not worth trying to understand, except as a thing like "this is what this person thinks".

I will try to better describe what can be fun about faster pace in CTF. Noone dies 50 times before accomplishing something, and I would not find that fun either. You can accomplish something every run regardless of whether you actually bring the flag home. The question is was that offensive attack fun? Is getting a lot of opportunities to make a big play, test your opponent, or try for the flag fun? Advanced movement is not a requirement for CTF, but some potential to bypass a defender or grab a flag without killing everything first results in more action centered around the flag, and more interesting engagements with defenders. In traditional CTF you do not always have to DM everything and wipe the enemy defense to get the flag, whereas it is almost a requirement in TF2.

I can only speak to what I find fun in CTF from playing TFC at a top level for too many years. Defining what’s ‘fun’ is not easy and obviously subjective, so forgive me if I do not explain it well. I’m not saying what you should find fun, I’m just relating some things that myself and others who played organized TF enjoyed about it that are not present in TF2 CTF.

Some enjoyable elements in CTF on offense: you’re not constantly concerned about dying to the point of shying away from taking risks. If you fail to do much on one run the other team doesn’t gain advantage to push back and assault your own flag. Dying is not without consequences, but it is not so great as to deter aggressive play- you can fairly quickly return to the enemy base. As a consequence you have a lot more freedom and opportunities to try for a spectacular individual play, or help a teammate get a clean grab of the flag even if it means you die. You have multiple tools (conc jumps, movement, straight DM) to alter your approach throughout the round, with more potential to make plays despite health or numbers disadvantages (i.e. you do not have to wait for perfectly ideal situations to make your attacks). I personally like more opportunities to correct my play, test my opponent, and attempt higher risk plays, even if they may fail. I like how getting a clean flag pull is the exception rather than being the norm– I like how more action is centered around the flag than in TF2 CTF. Some of this is simply due to the pace, some is due to specific mechanics.

On defense I enjoy countering those attacks from those players. Pace contributes to my enjoyment here as well- I have a lot of opportunities to adapt to an attacking offense over the course of a round, and they have multiple tactics to use to bypass me and they are constantly testing my abilities. I’m trying to counter guys that try to get by me, guys that want to dm me, or conc or move a certain way. I’m making decisions about whether to chase someone or stay in position for the next attacker who is coming quickly, or whether to move up to a choke point to counter players that have been trying to conc by me. Is the guy that just got past me still a threat to get the flag? Is our backline defense overwhelmed, do I need to fall back to help? If I need to worry about guys dm’ing me AND guys that try to make a ‘finesse’ move to get by me I am constantly changing my own tactics and positioning. I like that variety and trying to learn opponents and behaviors: every engagement is a chess match that has a unique outcome. Down time is almost non existent and I enjoy the constant action.

CTF in Tf2 often feels like a two point CP match with flag props thrown in for kicks, the normal meta game is just not well suited to what I and many others found fun in CTF. I can’t think of anything that CTF in TF2 offers better than CP maps (which I enjoy).

I'm probably glossing over needed explanations as it's something I've been involved in for so long, but I'm not sure that I need to explain that TF2 is slower than TFC CTF. I provided an example of a round of TFC CTF which show that it is faster- that is not 'simply saying that it is'. I also mentioned specific things that contribute to a faster pace in the aforementioned game. Some things could possibly be improved upon to make CTF more enjoyable in TF2, some likely cannot.

What the fuck are you even on about?

A massive effing tangent, lol. Anyway I kinda want to make a map specifically for this mode now, hopefully the 4v4 game mode doesn't die before it gets off the ground.