One of the problems I've been having forever is timing my pushes with the team as scout. I feel like I always come in too soon or too late. What situations should I push in immediately with the combo? What should I do if it's an off uber push? Thank you for the nerd essays I'm hoping you'll write for me <3
Help me with my push timing as scout.
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TF2 General Discussion
One of the problems I've been having forever is timing my pushes with the team as scout. I feel like I always come in too soon or too late. What situations should I push in immediately with the combo? What should I do if it's an off uber push? Thank you for the nerd essays I'm hoping you'll write for me <3
Push when you have an advantage, hold or retreat when you have a disadvantage.
The degree of your advantage determines how aggressive you can be.
The degree of your disadvantage determines how quickly you need to back out.
Push when you have an advantage, hold or retreat when you have a disadvantage.
The degree of your advantage determines how aggressive you can be.
The degree of your disadvantage determines how quickly you need to back out.
The degree of your advantage determines how aggressive you can be.
The degree of your disadvantage determines how quickly you need to back out.
your information was actually useless and irrelevant mr. slin (and quite obvious).
Usually, the only time you should push in with your combo through a choke is when your team has an uber advantage, scouts are really useful uber v non uber, but not so much uber v uber. Depending on the map, your effectiveness as a scout when pushing through the flank is generally not going to be on the forefront and mostly just to stop anyone trying to get behind or do anything dumb. Most kills you have will be catching people trying to go behind, roamers trying to bomb in, or people who have stayed in too long. If you're really keen and want to be proactive, you can always look to slip in by constantly pressuring the spots that other teams have to watch by stopping you get behind. A good example of this would be badlands middle. You can constantly threaten to get underneath the mid point or slip beneath by playing the angles and catching the window when a scout has to go back to his medic for a buff or someone just plain isn't looking at valley.
The most success you'll have being offensive as a scout in situations where a both teams have ubers apart from actually taking an uber is by slipping in undetected and getting pick, otherwise you're mostly going to be cleaning and denying territory. Even still, to constantly try to aggress and help your team by being offensive you have to have high confidence in your aim and playmaking ability and constantly threaten areas the other team has to watch.
As for being successful when neither teams have ubers, you can gain a lot of ground for your team by pushing ahead and getting in the teams face, which should allow your team easy entry through chokes. Even if you're not directly fighting them, you're taking heat off your team. You can also do annoying things like pushing up extra far to catch people coming out of spawn or other such nonsensical things. Most of the time offensive success in these situations will depend on your surprising people or taking a 1v1 with someone who hasn't caught up to their proper position and then attempting to compound any advantages you get off a pick like that. You do even more for your team if you can properly communicate your intentions and let your team work off that (read: i don't ever do that and never tell my team when im going in or what im doing).
That being said, unless you're extremely confident in your aim, you should take a defensive role most of the time except to cap points or catch people out who don't have buffs.
Regardless, despite what advice you take or use, no situations will always play out well for you and the same thing won't always work because in FPS you have inconsistent factors like aim and such to factor in.
gl hf
your information was actually useless and irrelevant mr. slin (and quite obvious).
Usually, the only time you should push in with your combo through a choke is when your team has an uber advantage, scouts are really useful uber v non uber, but not so much uber v uber. Depending on the map, your effectiveness as a scout when pushing through the flank is generally not going to be on the forefront and mostly just to stop anyone trying to get behind or do anything dumb. Most kills you have will be catching people trying to go behind, roamers trying to bomb in, or people who have stayed in too long. If you're really keen and want to be proactive, you can always look to slip in by constantly pressuring the spots that other teams have to watch by stopping you get behind. A good example of this would be badlands middle. You can constantly threaten to get underneath the mid point or slip beneath by playing the angles and catching the window when a scout has to go back to his medic for a buff or someone just plain isn't looking at valley.
The most success you'll have being offensive as a scout in situations where a both teams have ubers apart from actually taking an uber is by slipping in undetected and getting pick, otherwise you're mostly going to be cleaning and denying territory. Even still, to constantly try to aggress and help your team by being offensive you have to have high confidence in your aim and playmaking ability and constantly threaten areas the other team has to watch.
As for being successful when neither teams have ubers, you can gain a lot of ground for your team by pushing ahead and getting in the teams face, which should allow your team easy entry through chokes. Even if you're not directly fighting them, you're taking heat off your team. You can also do annoying things like pushing up extra far to catch people coming out of spawn or other such nonsensical things. Most of the time offensive success in these situations will depend on your surprising people or taking a 1v1 with someone who hasn't caught up to their proper position and then attempting to compound any advantages you get off a pick like that. You do even more for your team if you can properly communicate your intentions and let your team work off that (read: i don't ever do that and never tell my team when im going in or what im doing).
That being said, unless you're extremely confident in your aim, you should take a defensive role most of the time except to cap points or catch people out who don't have buffs.
Regardless, despite what advice you take or use, no situations will always play out well for you and the same thing won't always work because in FPS you have inconsistent factors like aim and such to factor in.
gl hf
Usually, the only time you should push in with your combo through a choke is when your team has an uber advantage, scouts are really useful uber v non uber, but not so much uber v uber. Depending on the map, your effectiveness as a scout when pushing through the flank is generally not going to be on the forefront and mostly just to stop anyone trying to get behind or do anything dumb. Most kills you have will be catching people trying to go behind, roamers trying to bomb in, or people who have stayed in too long. If you're really keen and want to be proactive, you can always look to slip in by constantly pressuring the spots that other teams have to watch by stopping you get behind. A good example of this would be badlands middle. You can constantly threaten to get underneath the mid point or slip beneath by playing the angles and catching the window when a scout has to go back to his medic for a buff or someone just plain isn't looking at valley.
The most success you'll have being offensive as a scout in situations where a both teams have ubers apart from actually taking an uber is by slipping in undetected and getting pick, otherwise you're mostly going to be cleaning and denying territory. Even still, to constantly try to aggress and help your team by being offensive you have to have high confidence in your aim and playmaking ability and constantly threaten areas the other team has to watch.
As for being successful when neither teams have ubers, you can gain a lot of ground for your team by pushing ahead and getting in the teams face, which should allow your team easy entry through chokes. Even if you're not directly fighting them, you're taking heat off your team. You can also do annoying things like pushing up extra far to catch people coming out of spawn or other such nonsensical things. Most of the time offensive success in these situations will depend on your surprising people or taking a 1v1 with someone who hasn't caught up to their proper position and then attempting to compound any advantages you get off a pick like that. You do even more for your team if you can properly communicate your intentions and let your team work off that (read: i don't ever do that and never tell my team when im going in or what im doing).
That being said, unless you're extremely confident in your aim, you should take a defensive role most of the time except to cap points or catch people out who don't have buffs.
Regardless, despite what advice you take or use, no situations will always play out well for you and the same thing won't always work because in FPS you have inconsistent factors like aim and such to factor in.
gl hf
Here is the simple system to pushing - because your push timing is likely not bad because you are incapable of understanding when to push.
You should talk with your combo players and establish the following system that makes life easier for everybody.
Uber pushes:
If you are pushing with uber against a team with no uber, you should stack the side of the map your combo intends to come in on with at least 1 additional player (or all 6 it really doesn't matter). So long as you pace yourself well, you'll see your buddies going in, give it a few seconds to make sure you don't eat spam when you go in too. The pushing folks (or the push leader - which could be you) will make space for you, and from there you, as a scout either A.) cap the point, or B.) assist your teammates in acquiring frags. Your medic can key you in on when this is about to happen by calling when they're at 80% - all subjective responses to incoming actions should take place roughly around the 80% mark, as that gives everybody time to get into position to push without wasting time.
If you aren't on the stacked side of a push (the flank), you need to make absolutely certain that you maintain visual contact with any other players on your side, and one of you should scope out the area and determine the viability of pushing in, in support of your stronger side. Let your combo do the pushing, but if you can get in, in support here, that's even better. If somebody is significantly impeding your progress, make sure you overwhelm them with numbers or wait for your combo to flank them (you should tell them to do this).
Push packages:
A.) 1 scout (in the lead), Pocket, Demo, Medic. The Madmen Package.
B.) All 6 players with 1 butt-watcher. The Mihaly's Flow Package (one scout remains in the choke that was pushed through with his or her back turned to the combo to assure you don't get back capped or flanked).
C.) 5 players with the roamer or a single scout holding flank. The Classic Package.
D.) Both scouts in the combo, both lead through, with pocket + demo + medic coming in behind. The Scout package (use this only if the opposition is close enough for the scouts to actually get to them, and make sure you're not going into a closed space where soldiers can just shoot their own feet to kill one or both scouts).
If you are pushing Uber Vs. Uber you should establish the following normative system.
Too many combo players get bogged down in describing what is happening "Oh, they're flashing a bunch, they popped first, etc." This information often isn't relayed fast enough for it to matter to non-combo players, and both players in the combo should be well aware of their status of their respective uber without coaching each other through it. What instead should be used is a clean and clear normative system. I call it the CNN system after their "Good thing Bad Thing" question they give pundits lol.
The ONLY thing your combo needs to communicate during an uber is:
"Bad" - this means something has gone wrong and your medic should call which door he/she intends to retreat into, your pocket should say "leave me" or "save me." Leave me implies that the situation is so bad he or she has chosen not to survive it (either by remaining in to attempt to get a frag or continue trying to somehow ablate the opposition's uber). "Save me" implies that the pocket thinks he or she can survive the uber and intends to retreat.
In response to this you as a scout respond to a "bad" call:
A.) Holding position on the flank by getting into a solid defensive position
B.) Taking up a solid defensive position relative to the combo (so you can help them should anything chase them).
C.) If you have solid health and some comrades on the flank who likewise have solid health, you can attempt to acquire a single frag to take the pressure off of your combo. If you manage to secure a single frag, or additional frags, and maintain your solid HP, you could attempt to develop the counter push more broadly so long as your combo is still alive in some capacity (otherwise you'll simply become trapped).
"Good" this means things have gone well for you in your push.
"Good" implies that at least 1 or more of the following are true:
A.) You did not pop first
B.) You managed to deal significant damage with your uber.
C.) The opposition has been forced to flash to the extent that the difference (in time remaining) between the respective ubers is very small(you SHOULD NEVER put yourself in the position to flash)
As a scout, "good" implies to you that you should get ready to push immediately, and move into position to do so.
Once the good call has been made, your pocket or medic should begin saying "get in" around the 25-20% remaining uber mark. "Get in" should NOT be called if your uber has failed to secure ground sufficient for people to get in safely (otherwise your team coming in behind the combo may have to face a bit of an uber). If that is the case, your combo players will need to wait until the uber is very nearly over to issue the "get in" call. Once that call is made you push in with the rest of your team, be it from behind the combo or on the flank.
Dry pushing:
Dry pushing should only ever be done when one or more the following conditions are met:
A.) You hold an offensive positional advantage (IE you hold mid or the 4th point).
B.) You face a slight uber disadvantage or a significant one which is small in actual % (that is to say, you have a large amount of disadvantage, but the other team won't actually have uber for 15+ seconds).
C.) The other team has a numerical disadvantage
D.) You have a very large local numerical advantage (maybe they're all spawned but in transition to defense on a forward point, thus you can walk in and take ground before they arrive).
On an off uber push you push just as you would if you had an uber advantage. You want to make sure you have overwhelming (local) force to secure space for your team to carry out an attack.
If it so happens that you're on the flank when this is done, your combo should let you know when your doorway is clear, especially if you're pushing in with 5 and you're alone on the flank.
As a scout you depend on your combo communicating with you to assure that you have a proper understanding of the situation and what role you will play in pushes. If anything good sir, I'd imagine that this is the major impediment to your play and not your own lack of understanding that uber advantage = push, numbers advantage = push, etc.
Here is the simple system to pushing - because your push timing is likely not bad because you are incapable of understanding when to push.
You should talk with your combo players and establish the following system that makes life easier for everybody.
Uber pushes:
If you are pushing with uber against a team with no uber, you should stack the side of the map your combo intends to come in on with at least 1 additional player (or all 6 it really doesn't matter). So long as you pace yourself well, you'll see your buddies going in, give it a few seconds to make sure you don't eat spam when you go in too. The pushing folks (or the push leader - which could be you) will make space for you, and from there you, as a scout either A.) cap the point, or B.) assist your teammates in acquiring frags. Your medic can key you in on when this is about to happen by calling when they're at 80% - all subjective responses to incoming actions should take place roughly around the 80% mark, as that gives everybody time to get into position to push without wasting time.
If you aren't on the stacked side of a push (the flank), you need to make absolutely certain that you maintain visual contact with any other players on your side, and one of you should scope out the area and determine the viability of pushing in, in support of your stronger side. Let your combo do the pushing, but if you can get in, in support here, that's even better. If somebody is significantly impeding your progress, make sure you overwhelm them with numbers or wait for your combo to flank them (you should tell them to do this).
Push packages:
A.) 1 scout (in the lead), Pocket, Demo, Medic. The Madmen Package.
B.) All 6 players with 1 butt-watcher. The Mihaly's Flow Package (one scout remains in the choke that was pushed through with his or her back turned to the combo to assure you don't get back capped or flanked).
C.) 5 players with the roamer or a single scout holding flank. The Classic Package.
D.) Both scouts in the combo, both lead through, with pocket + demo + medic coming in behind. The Scout package (use this only if the opposition is close enough for the scouts to actually get to them, and make sure you're not going into a closed space where soldiers can just shoot their own feet to kill one or both scouts).
If you are pushing Uber Vs. Uber you should establish the following normative system.
Too many combo players get bogged down in describing what is happening "Oh, they're flashing a bunch, they popped first, [i]etc[/i]." This information often isn't relayed fast enough for it to matter to non-combo players, and both players in the combo should be well aware of their status of their respective uber without coaching each other through it. What instead should be used is a clean and clear normative system. I call it the CNN system after their "Good thing Bad Thing" question they give pundits lol.
The ONLY thing your combo needs to communicate during an uber is:
"Bad" - this means something has gone wrong and your medic should call which door he/she intends to retreat into, your pocket should say "leave me" or "save me." Leave me implies that the situation is so bad he or she has chosen not to survive it (either by remaining in to attempt to get a frag or continue trying to somehow ablate the opposition's uber). "Save me" implies that the pocket thinks he or she can survive the uber and intends to retreat.
In response to this you as a scout respond to a "bad" call:
A.) Holding position on the flank by getting into a solid defensive position
B.) Taking up a solid defensive position relative to the combo (so you can help them should anything chase them).
C.) If you have solid health and some comrades on the flank who likewise have solid health, you can attempt to acquire a single frag to take the pressure off of your combo. If you manage to secure a single frag, or additional frags, and maintain your solid HP, you could attempt to develop the counter push more broadly so long as your combo is still alive in some capacity (otherwise you'll simply become trapped).
"Good" this means things have gone well for you in your push.
"Good" implies that at least 1 or more of the following are true:
A.) You did not pop first
B.) You managed to deal significant damage with your uber.
C.) The opposition has been forced to flash to the extent that the difference (in time remaining) between the respective ubers is very small(you SHOULD NEVER put yourself in the position to flash)
As a scout, "good" implies to you that you should get ready to push immediately, and move into position to do so.
Once the good call has been made, your pocket or medic should begin saying "get in" around the 25-20% remaining uber mark. "Get in" should NOT be called if your uber has failed to secure ground sufficient for people to get in safely (otherwise your team coming in behind the combo may have to face a bit of an uber). If that is the case, your combo players will need to wait until the uber is very nearly over to issue the "get in" call. Once that call is made you push in with the rest of your team, be it from behind the combo or on the flank.
Dry pushing:
Dry pushing should only ever be done when one or more the following conditions are met:
A.) You hold an offensive positional advantage (IE you hold mid or the 4th point).
B.) You face a slight uber disadvantage or a significant one which is small in actual % (that is to say, you have a large amount of disadvantage, but the other team won't actually have uber for 15+ seconds).
C.) The other team has a numerical disadvantage
D.) You have a very large local numerical advantage (maybe they're all spawned but in transition to defense on a forward point, thus you can walk in and take ground before they arrive).
On an off uber push you push just as you would if you had an uber advantage. You want to make sure you have overwhelming (local) force to secure space for your team to carry out an attack.
If it so happens that you're on the flank when this is done, your combo should let you know when your doorway is clear, especially if you're pushing in with 5 and you're alone on the flank.
As a scout you depend on your combo communicating with you to assure that you have a proper understanding of the situation and what role you will play in pushes. If anything good sir, I'd imagine that this is the major impediment to your play and not your own lack of understanding that uber advantage = push, numbers advantage = push, etc.
You should talk with your combo players and establish the following system that makes life easier for everybody.
Uber pushes:
If you are pushing with uber against a team with no uber, you should stack the side of the map your combo intends to come in on with at least 1 additional player (or all 6 it really doesn't matter). So long as you pace yourself well, you'll see your buddies going in, give it a few seconds to make sure you don't eat spam when you go in too. The pushing folks (or the push leader - which could be you) will make space for you, and from there you, as a scout either A.) cap the point, or B.) assist your teammates in acquiring frags. Your medic can key you in on when this is about to happen by calling when they're at 80% - all subjective responses to incoming actions should take place roughly around the 80% mark, as that gives everybody time to get into position to push without wasting time.
If you aren't on the stacked side of a push (the flank), you need to make absolutely certain that you maintain visual contact with any other players on your side, and one of you should scope out the area and determine the viability of pushing in, in support of your stronger side. Let your combo do the pushing, but if you can get in, in support here, that's even better. If somebody is significantly impeding your progress, make sure you overwhelm them with numbers or wait for your combo to flank them (you should tell them to do this).
Push packages:
A.) 1 scout (in the lead), Pocket, Demo, Medic. The Madmen Package.
B.) All 6 players with 1 butt-watcher. The Mihaly's Flow Package (one scout remains in the choke that was pushed through with his or her back turned to the combo to assure you don't get back capped or flanked).
C.) 5 players with the roamer or a single scout holding flank. The Classic Package.
D.) Both scouts in the combo, both lead through, with pocket + demo + medic coming in behind. The Scout package (use this only if the opposition is close enough for the scouts to actually get to them, and make sure you're not going into a closed space where soldiers can just shoot their own feet to kill one or both scouts).
If you are pushing Uber Vs. Uber you should establish the following normative system.
Too many combo players get bogged down in describing what is happening "Oh, they're flashing a bunch, they popped first, [i]etc[/i]." This information often isn't relayed fast enough for it to matter to non-combo players, and both players in the combo should be well aware of their status of their respective uber without coaching each other through it. What instead should be used is a clean and clear normative system. I call it the CNN system after their "Good thing Bad Thing" question they give pundits lol.
The ONLY thing your combo needs to communicate during an uber is:
"Bad" - this means something has gone wrong and your medic should call which door he/she intends to retreat into, your pocket should say "leave me" or "save me." Leave me implies that the situation is so bad he or she has chosen not to survive it (either by remaining in to attempt to get a frag or continue trying to somehow ablate the opposition's uber). "Save me" implies that the pocket thinks he or she can survive the uber and intends to retreat.
In response to this you as a scout respond to a "bad" call:
A.) Holding position on the flank by getting into a solid defensive position
B.) Taking up a solid defensive position relative to the combo (so you can help them should anything chase them).
C.) If you have solid health and some comrades on the flank who likewise have solid health, you can attempt to acquire a single frag to take the pressure off of your combo. If you manage to secure a single frag, or additional frags, and maintain your solid HP, you could attempt to develop the counter push more broadly so long as your combo is still alive in some capacity (otherwise you'll simply become trapped).
"Good" this means things have gone well for you in your push.
"Good" implies that at least 1 or more of the following are true:
A.) You did not pop first
B.) You managed to deal significant damage with your uber.
C.) The opposition has been forced to flash to the extent that the difference (in time remaining) between the respective ubers is very small(you SHOULD NEVER put yourself in the position to flash)
As a scout, "good" implies to you that you should get ready to push immediately, and move into position to do so.
Once the good call has been made, your pocket or medic should begin saying "get in" around the 25-20% remaining uber mark. "Get in" should NOT be called if your uber has failed to secure ground sufficient for people to get in safely (otherwise your team coming in behind the combo may have to face a bit of an uber). If that is the case, your combo players will need to wait until the uber is very nearly over to issue the "get in" call. Once that call is made you push in with the rest of your team, be it from behind the combo or on the flank.
Dry pushing:
Dry pushing should only ever be done when one or more the following conditions are met:
A.) You hold an offensive positional advantage (IE you hold mid or the 4th point).
B.) You face a slight uber disadvantage or a significant one which is small in actual % (that is to say, you have a large amount of disadvantage, but the other team won't actually have uber for 15+ seconds).
C.) The other team has a numerical disadvantage
D.) You have a very large local numerical advantage (maybe they're all spawned but in transition to defense on a forward point, thus you can walk in and take ground before they arrive).
On an off uber push you push just as you would if you had an uber advantage. You want to make sure you have overwhelming (local) force to secure space for your team to carry out an attack.
If it so happens that you're on the flank when this is done, your combo should let you know when your doorway is clear, especially if you're pushing in with 5 and you're alone on the flank.
As a scout you depend on your combo communicating with you to assure that you have a proper understanding of the situation and what role you will play in pushes. If anything good sir, I'd imagine that this is the major impediment to your play and not your own lack of understanding that uber advantage = push, numbers advantage = push, etc.
My advice Capn:
Never go with the combo unless the combo calls for you to go. They aren't reading your mind, and aren't expecting to have to uber you, decent chance you or your pocket will die in a trap or get dropped if you are showing up uninvited to the uber party. So either ask to come, or listen for the "scout come with us", "we have uber adv, we are pushing" call. Otherwise just wait until you hear confirmation that your combo has indeed pushed into fighting position, popped, trading ubers, listen for your combos call on where to collapse/who might be lit and if the uber is better or worse. For the most part if your combo is not saying these things to you, then a lot of your work is guesswork and it is tough on the flank in general, so don't think the problem is all you. It's a team game, communication beats DM a lot of the time.
As for scout, try hard never to die "too soon". Scouts best class at end of fight, be alive at end of fight.
And as for your off uber push, if you guys are doing that, make sure you have a buff and you are mgelord, work with your scout buddy, 2 v 1 is better then 1 v 1, call a focus and bring a friend. Lastly, if that 1 v 1 fight isn't looking advantageous for you, just fricken leave, you are a scout.
My advice Capn:
Never go with the combo unless the combo calls for you to go. They aren't reading your mind, and aren't expecting to have to uber you, decent chance you or your pocket will die in a trap or get dropped if you are showing up uninvited to the uber party. So either ask to come, or listen for the "scout come with us", "we have uber adv, we are pushing" call. Otherwise just wait until you hear confirmation that your combo has indeed pushed into fighting position, popped, trading ubers, listen for your combos call on where to collapse/who might be lit and if the uber is better or worse. For the most part if your combo is not saying these things to you, then a lot of your work is guesswork and it is tough on the flank in general, so don't think the problem is all you. It's a team game, communication beats DM a lot of the time.
As for scout, try hard never to die "too soon". Scouts best class at end of fight, be alive at end of fight.
And as for your off uber push, if you guys are doing that, make sure you have a buff and you are mgelord, work with your scout buddy, 2 v 1 is better then 1 v 1, call a focus and bring a friend. Lastly, if that 1 v 1 fight isn't looking advantageous for you, just fricken leave, you are a scout.
Never go with the combo unless the combo calls for you to go. They aren't reading your mind, and aren't expecting to have to uber you, decent chance you or your pocket will die in a trap or get dropped if you are showing up uninvited to the uber party. So either ask to come, or listen for the "scout come with us", "we have uber adv, we are pushing" call. Otherwise just wait until you hear confirmation that your combo has indeed pushed into fighting position, popped, trading ubers, listen for your combos call on where to collapse/who might be lit and if the uber is better or worse. For the most part if your combo is not saying these things to you, then a lot of your work is guesswork and it is tough on the flank in general, so don't think the problem is all you. It's a team game, communication beats DM a lot of the time.
As for scout, try hard never to die "too soon". Scouts best class at end of fight, be alive at end of fight.
And as for your off uber push, if you guys are doing that, make sure you have a buff and you are mgelord, work with your scout buddy, 2 v 1 is better then 1 v 1, call a focus and bring a friend. Lastly, if that 1 v 1 fight isn't looking advantageous for you, just fricken leave, you are a scout.
Unless you're fully buffed and very confident in your DM, never push with the combo. If you push into the flank and run into their flank, you'll likely have an even-numbers battle, which is bad. If you push in behind the combo during an uber exchange, you'll just be giving the other ubered combo something to shoot at.
I typically sit around and count out the first 4 seconds of the uber - after that, having listened to what the combo did (did they cover ground, did they get entry frags, etc.) - I'll probably choose that time to start moving it. By the time you get to the fight, things should be hurt and the uber should be faded(ing).
In general though, don't push unless you're next to at least one person.
Unless you're fully buffed and very confident in your DM, [u]never push with the combo[/u]. If you push into the flank and run into their flank, you'll likely have an even-numbers battle, which is bad. If you push in behind the combo during an uber exchange, you'll just be giving the other ubered combo something to shoot at.
I typically sit around and count out the first 4 seconds of the uber - after that, having listened to what the combo did (did they cover ground, did they get entry frags, etc.) - I'll probably choose that time to start moving it. By the time you get to the fight, things should be hurt and the uber should be faded(ing).
In general though, don't push unless you're next to at least one person.
I typically sit around and count out the first 4 seconds of the uber - after that, having listened to what the combo did (did they cover ground, did they get entry frags, etc.) - I'll probably choose that time to start moving it. By the time you get to the fight, things should be hurt and the uber should be faded(ing).
In general though, don't push unless you're next to at least one person.
MarxistHere is the simple system to pushing - because your push timing is likely not bad because you are incapable of understanding when to push.
When I first read this I thought you were saying that I'm dumb and incapable of understanding when to push hahaha. thank you Marxist, I really like how you broke down the different styles of pushing. I've never really tried the mihalys flow one so maybe I'll try that out tonight 8)
Thanks blueberry for the tip about only going with the combo when asked. I pretty much always push in through choke with or behind the combo even though I'm usually not being asked to so there's something I can fix immediately.
Synchro, I like the count to 4 seconds tip.
Thanks guys :>
Edit: mr slin, www.hookedonphonics.com
[quote=Marxist]Here is the simple system to pushing - because your push timing is likely not bad because you are incapable of understanding when to push.[/quote]
When I first read this I thought you were saying that I'm dumb and incapable of understanding when to push hahaha. thank you Marxist, I really like how you broke down the different styles of pushing. I've never really tried the mihalys flow one so maybe I'll try that out tonight 8)
Thanks blueberry for the tip about only going with the combo when asked. I pretty much always push in through choke with or behind the combo even though I'm usually not being asked to so there's something I can fix immediately.
Synchro, I like the count to 4 seconds tip.
Thanks guys :>
Edit: mr slin, www.hookedonphonics.com
When I first read this I thought you were saying that I'm dumb and incapable of understanding when to push hahaha. thank you Marxist, I really like how you broke down the different styles of pushing. I've never really tried the mihalys flow one so maybe I'll try that out tonight 8)
Thanks blueberry for the tip about only going with the combo when asked. I pretty much always push in through choke with or behind the combo even though I'm usually not being asked to so there's something I can fix immediately.
Synchro, I like the count to 4 seconds tip.
Thanks guys :>
Edit: mr slin, www.hookedonphonics.com
i can only say this from a medic perspective but there are few things more frustrating than having to decide between flashing a scout who comes into an otherwise successful uber or letting him die and fucking up the post uber cleanup
that 4 seconds tip is a really good one, basically you don't want to be a possible target at all on an even-uber exchange. Keep those critheals and be ready to find your medic for the post-uber buff.
i can only say this from a medic perspective but there are few things more frustrating than having to decide between flashing a scout who comes into an otherwise successful uber or letting him die and fucking up the post uber cleanup
that 4 seconds tip is a really good one, basically you don't want to be a possible target at all on an even-uber exchange. Keep those critheals and be ready to find your medic for the post-uber buff.
that 4 seconds tip is a really good one, basically you don't want to be a possible target at all on an even-uber exchange. Keep those critheals and be ready to find your medic for the post-uber buff.
your combo should be helping to dictate how the flank moves depending what they're doing
your combo should be helping to dictate how the flank moves depending what they're doing
capnfapnSynchro, I like the count to 4 seconds tip.
In case it wasn't obvious (if newer players see this), since ubers last 8 seconds and people typically flash (the hope is that your combo can force flashes during a push I guess) to reduce the duration, counting out 4 seconds should give you the right timing to move through the flank (or choke depending on the map/situation) and arrive at the fight just in time to shoot things without them going invincible.
[quote=capnfapn]Synchro, I like the count to 4 seconds tip. [/quote]
In case it wasn't obvious (if newer players see this), since ubers last 8 seconds and people typically flash (the hope is that your combo can force flashes during a push I guess) to reduce the duration, counting out 4 seconds should give you the right timing to move through the flank (or choke depending on the map/situation) and arrive at the fight just in time to shoot things without them going invincible.
In case it wasn't obvious (if newer players see this), since ubers last 8 seconds and people typically flash (the hope is that your combo can force flashes during a push I guess) to reduce the duration, counting out 4 seconds should give you the right timing to move through the flank (or choke depending on the map/situation) and arrive at the fight just in time to shoot things without them going invincible.
Also a lot of people don't understand or doubt the usefulness of stacking pushes so I made a little image using a historical example of why this works so well as long as you time it correctly
The image is large so I'm posting only a link so as not to absorb massive amounts of space.
As you can see in the picture, Soviet defensive AT guns were spaced evenly along the width of the front. Their field manual instructed soldiers and commanders to carry this out. The idea being that you could cover a very large space with AT guns. However, Panzer tank tactics focused on putting the largest possible amount of firepower in 1 single location and then overwhelming their targets. Once they had destroyed the (relatively speaking) numerically inferior opposition, they would then push through the hole they had made and outflank any remaining defenders.
This is EXACTLY what should happen after every uber push. You overwhelm the local forces who have spread themselves between flank and choke, and force them to leave the map area lest they become trapped and killed.
Also a lot of people don't understand or doubt the usefulness of stacking pushes so I made a little image using a historical example of why this works so well as long as you time it correctly
The image is large so I'm posting only a link so as not to absorb massive amounts of space.
http://tinypic.com/r/k2bo7l/5
As you can see in the picture, Soviet defensive AT guns were spaced evenly along the width of the front. Their field manual instructed soldiers and commanders to carry this out. The idea being that you could cover a very large space with AT guns. However, Panzer tank tactics focused on putting the largest possible amount of firepower in 1 single location and then overwhelming their targets. Once they had destroyed the (relatively speaking) numerically inferior opposition, they would then push through the hole they had made and outflank any remaining defenders.
This is EXACTLY what should happen after every uber push. You overwhelm the local forces who have spread themselves between flank and choke, and force them to leave the map area lest they become trapped and killed.
The image is large so I'm posting only a link so as not to absorb massive amounts of space.
http://tinypic.com/r/k2bo7l/5
As you can see in the picture, Soviet defensive AT guns were spaced evenly along the width of the front. Their field manual instructed soldiers and commanders to carry this out. The idea being that you could cover a very large space with AT guns. However, Panzer tank tactics focused on putting the largest possible amount of firepower in 1 single location and then overwhelming their targets. Once they had destroyed the (relatively speaking) numerically inferior opposition, they would then push through the hole they had made and outflank any remaining defenders.
This is EXACTLY what should happen after every uber push. You overwhelm the local forces who have spread themselves between flank and choke, and force them to leave the map area lest they become trapped and killed.
lol i don't think you needed a real world historical example of why pushing in with more players ups your damage output when you don't have to worry about having a better uber. but i like your enthusiasm.
lol i don't think you needed a real world historical example of why pushing in with more players ups your damage output when you don't have to worry about having a better uber. but i like your enthusiasm.
Well I have so much of this shit floating around in my head I have to share it sometimes :p #historydegreelife :( I taught youmustmike about Schwerpunkt doctrine once when we were talking tf2.
Well I have so much of this shit floating around in my head I have to share it sometimes :p #historydegreelife :( I taught youmustmike about [i]Schwerpunkt[/i] doctrine once when we were talking tf2.
Loronixlol i don't think you needed a real world historical example of why pushing in with more players ups your damage output when you don't have to worry about having a better uber.
i think this is the most amazing style of mentoring i have ever seen
[quote=Loronix]lol i don't think you needed a real world historical example of why pushing in with more players ups your damage output when you don't have to worry about having a better uber.[/quote]
i think this is the most amazing style of mentoring i have ever seen
i think this is the most amazing style of mentoring i have ever seen
push when you feel the contractions, slow and steady, mind your breathing
push when you feel the contractions, slow and steady, mind your breathing
MR_SLINPush when you have an advantage, hold or retreat when you have a disadvantage.
The degree of your advantage determines how aggressive you can be.
The degree of your disadvantage determines how quickly you need to back out.
That pretty much summed up my preexisting perception of slin's TF2 knowledge.
[quote=MR_SLIN]Push when you have an advantage, hold or retreat when you have a disadvantage.
The degree of your advantage determines how aggressive you can be.
The degree of your disadvantage determines how quickly you need to back out.[/quote]
That pretty much summed up my preexisting perception of slin's TF2 knowledge.
The degree of your advantage determines how aggressive you can be.
The degree of your disadvantage determines how quickly you need to back out.[/quote]
That pretty much summed up my preexisting perception of slin's TF2 knowledge.
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