Upvote Upvoted 18 Downvote Downvoted
CTFTrue
1
#1
17 Frags +

I think CTF in TF2 has the potential to be fun but in its current state it is dogtrash and noone plays it.

So I made a plugin to fix some problems with its ruleset: https://github.com/mikejsavage/tf2-ctftrue

You can't capture without having your flag at home. This prevents teams just trading caps forever and avoiding confrontation.

Touch returns for the defending team. A 60s timer allows teams to bomb onto the flag/uncloak a spy on top of it forever until they finally man up and grab it for real. I'm not sure if touch returns is the best solution as it allows bombing onto the carrier for the return. So...

Adjustable flag return time. 10s timer stops a team from homoing the flag to their goal and stops soldiers from homoreturning it.

Throwable flag. its kinda fun 8) i can take it out if it sucks (doesn't really work atm anyway)

Other low hanging fruit: noone but shitlords wants to play with engi/pyro/heavy at the best of times so obviously limit0 them here

The plugin by itself isn't enough though because apparently noone in the TF2 mapping community has any clue how to make a CTF map that isn't appalling.

I'm going to bring up maps from Warsow (wsw CTF is bad I know but their maps are very good and it's the FPS I know best) to use as examples.

yea my screenshots are horrible just dl the game and look around

wctf1
http://youtu.be/VtskQrUcyCA
http://youtu.be/VxzpMMRtfF0

This is a good map. There is a pair of parallel low routes through mid entirely shielded from each other, then attackers need to ascend the base to the flag room at the very top. There is a 1way teleport from the top to the bottom and a 2way tele from below the flag to across from the flag.

wctf4
http://i.imgur.com/dALOn6x.jpg (mid overhead)
http://i.imgur.com/wlG4rvC.jpg (standing in mid, there is another route which goes behind me)

This is a decent map. There is a low route through mid, 2 mid level routes and a high route all mostly shielded from each other. These all converge in the flag room. The sightlines are enormous and the routes are all too easy to accelerate in so rails/1200ups carriers get tiresome.

wctf6
http://i.imgur.com/cjlJTiS.jpg (mid, showing the 3 routes)

This is a good map. There are 3 parallel routes through mid, 2 high and a low all mostly shielded from each other. The bases also have a high and low level with the flag being on the upper level at the back of the base. There is a 1way tele from the flag room to just before mid and another 1way tele from the last tele to the upper level near the flagroom.

wctf2
http://i.imgur.com/O79deDH.jpg (mid)

This map is awful. The screenshot is of the only route through mid. It plays like every TF2 CTF map where the stronger team holds the single route through mid and the weaker team holds the single route into their flagroom forever and nothing happens and it's a total shitfest.

old wctf5
(i don't have any screenshots and this map is no longer in the game)

This map sucked. There were 2 routes through mid but one of them was on top of the other (like doublecross) and the flagroom was deep++ inside the base with basically one route to it. iCTF was ok on this map because a sufficiently good carrier would have 8 people's worth of fun while everyone else sat on their hands. With stock weapons you couldn't hit the same tricks or speeds, the flagroom was too hard to get into and all the spawns were between mid and the flagroom so it played like 2fort.

The points I am trying to make with this:

Stop making idiotic terrible maps with a single route through mid and add routes to the flag room that don't go straight past the defensive spawns. Ideally the safer route should be longer so you can actually intercept the flag if they want to be scared.

Teleports are cool and I'd like to see someone try a map with them in TF2. They give the carrier a break a break where they aren't visible or taking damage from direct chasers and allow creative interceptions. On the other hand the TF2's simplicity is one of it's strong points and they might end up being stupid.

Turbine gets things partially right but not enough. Attacking is almost always go in and out of lower and defending is always hold middle. mach4 looks like it might actually be playable.

The bright side: I just told you how to make good maps so you can go do it now. Some of the existing CP maps also have nice layouts for CTF and I believe it's possible to make a plugin to make CTF playable on CP maps although I am not as familiar with mapping as I was when I quit 4 years ago so I could be wrong. http://tf2.gamebanana.com/maps/75513 would probably honestly be playable in regular TF2 but recompiling maps shits up the lighting so everyone would QQ, but this is the kind of thing I mean.

I think CTF in TF2 has the potential to be fun but in its current state it is dogtrash and noone plays it.

So I made a plugin to fix some problems with its ruleset: https://github.com/mikejsavage/tf2-ctftrue

You can't capture without having your flag at home. This prevents teams just trading caps forever and avoiding confrontation.

Touch returns for the defending team. A 60s timer allows teams to bomb onto the flag/uncloak a spy on top of it forever until they finally man up and grab it for real. I'm not sure if touch returns is the best solution as it allows bombing onto the carrier for the return. So...

Adjustable flag return time. 10s timer stops a team from homoing the flag to their goal and stops soldiers from homoreturning it.

Throwable flag. its kinda fun 8) i can take it out if it sucks (doesn't really work atm anyway)

Other low hanging fruit: noone but shitlords wants to play with engi/pyro/heavy at the best of times so obviously limit0 them here

The plugin by itself isn't enough though because apparently noone in the TF2 mapping community has any clue how to make a CTF map that isn't appalling.

I'm going to bring up maps from Warsow (wsw CTF is bad I know but their maps are very good and it's the FPS I know best) to use as examples.

[size=11]yea my screenshots are horrible just dl the game and look around[/size]

[b]wctf1[/b]
http://youtu.be/VtskQrUcyCA
http://youtu.be/VxzpMMRtfF0

This is a good map. There is a pair of parallel low routes through mid entirely shielded from each other, then attackers need to ascend the base to the flag room at the very top. There is a 1way teleport from the top to the bottom and a 2way tele from below the flag to across from the flag.

[b]wctf4[/b]
http://i.imgur.com/dALOn6x.jpg (mid overhead)
http://i.imgur.com/wlG4rvC.jpg (standing in mid, there is another route which goes behind me)

This is a decent map. There is a low route through mid, 2 mid level routes and a high route all mostly shielded from each other. These all converge in the flag room. The sightlines are enormous and the routes are all too easy to accelerate in so rails/1200ups carriers get tiresome.

[b]wctf6[/b]
http://i.imgur.com/cjlJTiS.jpg (mid, showing the 3 routes)

This is a good map. There are 3 parallel routes through mid, 2 high and a low all mostly shielded from each other. The bases also have a high and low level with the flag being on the upper level at the back of the base. There is a 1way tele from the flag room to just before mid and another 1way tele from the last tele to the upper level near the flagroom.

[b]wctf2[/b]
http://i.imgur.com/O79deDH.jpg (mid)

This map is awful. The screenshot is of the only route through mid. It plays like every TF2 CTF map where the stronger team holds the single route through mid and the weaker team holds the single route into their flagroom forever and nothing happens and it's a total shitfest.

[b]old wctf5[/b]
(i don't have any screenshots and this map is no longer in the game)

This map sucked. There were 2 routes through mid but one of them was on top of the other (like doublecross) and the flagroom was deep++ inside the base with basically one route to it. iCTF was ok on this map because a sufficiently good carrier would have 8 people's worth of fun while everyone else sat on their hands. With stock weapons you couldn't hit the same tricks or speeds, the flagroom was too hard to get into and all the spawns were between mid and the flagroom so it played like 2fort.

The points I am trying to make with this:

Stop making idiotic terrible maps with a single route through mid and add routes to the flag room that don't go straight past the defensive spawns. Ideally the safer route should be longer so you can actually intercept the flag if they want to be scared.

Teleports are cool and I'd like to see someone try a map with them in TF2. They give the carrier a break a break where they aren't visible or taking damage from direct chasers and allow creative interceptions. On the other hand the TF2's simplicity is one of it's strong points and they might end up being stupid.

Turbine gets things partially right but not enough. Attacking is almost always go in and out of lower and defending is always hold middle. mach4 looks like it might actually be playable.

The bright side: I just told you how to make good maps so you can go do it now. Some of the existing CP maps also have nice layouts for CTF and I believe it's possible to make a plugin to make CTF playable on CP maps although I am not as familiar with mapping as I was when I quit 4 years ago so I could be wrong. http://tf2.gamebanana.com/maps/75513 would probably honestly be playable in regular TF2 but recompiling maps shits up the lighting so everyone would QQ, but this is the kind of thing I mean.
2
#2
3 Frags +

Not sure how I feel about a fortress game having touches return the flag, but meh. Seems like it'd be fun regardless - I've been dabbling in TFC for the past month or two and it has been a fresh change to play.

EDIT: Maybe conc's would need to be in this. Can't see too many 'other' classes being useful for actually grabbing the flag.

Not sure how I feel about a fortress game having touches return the flag, but meh. Seems like it'd be fun regardless - I've been dabbling in TFC for the past month or two and it has been a fresh change to play.

EDIT: Maybe conc's would need to be in this. Can't see too many 'other' classes being useful for actually grabbing the flag.
3
#3
-1 Frags +

"You can't capture without having your flag at home. This prevents teams just trading caps forever and avoiding confrontation."

This was a feature of ctf_haunt, of all the problems with that maps this was quite a major one. It's easy to abuse by taking an early lead then taking the enemies intel once more and camping with it where they can't kill you. You don't even need to defend your intel at all because they can't do anything with it if you get a very strong defence around their intel. Sure it's a cheap tactic but depending on how awful the map is, such as ctf_haunt, camping with their intel until the timer runs down is often more fun than actually playing the map.

"You can't capture without having your flag at home. This prevents teams just trading caps forever and avoiding confrontation."

This was a feature of ctf_haunt, of all the problems with that maps this was quite a major one. It's easy to abuse by taking an early lead then taking the enemies intel once more and camping with it where they can't kill you. You don't even need to defend your intel at all because they can't do anything with it if you get a very strong defence around their intel. Sure it's a cheap tactic but depending on how awful the map is, such as ctf_haunt, camping with their intel until the timer runs down is often more fun than actually playing the map.
4
#4
0 Frags +
yukiNot sure how I feel about a fortress game having touches return the flag, but meh.

Me neither, because of bombers being able to suicide+return the flag.

yukiEDIT: Maybe conc's would need to be in this. Can't see too many 'other' classes being useful for actually grabbing the flag.

Eh. If TF2 CTF had this it would be like every other arena shooter but worse. We have enough games where 1 person on each team has all of the fun while everyone else gets to eat shit and bodyblock the flag from homing missile players.

DavidTheWin"You can't capture without having your flag at home. This prevents teams just trading caps forever and avoiding confrontation."

This was a feature of ctf_haunt, of all the problems with that maps this was quite a major one. It's easy to abuse by taking an early lead then taking the enemies intel once more and camping with it where they can't kill you.

I expect if you're good enough to hold the flag forever then you're good enough to just win anyway (keep in mind I am suggesting we ban all the idiotdefense classes too). This could probably be mitigated with sensible map design too. If that doesn't work it's easy enough to add a "shot clock" like the stalemate thread. Make it so the flag resets if you don't cap within 2 minutes or something.

edit: actually the sticky/rocket jumper could make problems with this :D

[quote=yuki]Not sure how I feel about a fortress game having touches return the flag, but meh.[/quote]

Me neither, because of bombers being able to suicide+return the flag.

[quote=yuki]EDIT: Maybe conc's would need to be in this. Can't see too many 'other' classes being useful for actually grabbing the flag.[/quote]

Eh. If TF2 CTF had this it would be like every other arena shooter but worse. We have enough games where 1 person on each team has all of the fun while everyone else gets to eat shit and bodyblock the flag from homing missile players.

[quote=DavidTheWin]"You can't capture without having your flag at home. This prevents teams just trading caps forever and avoiding confrontation."

This was a feature of ctf_haunt, of all the problems with that maps this was quite a major one. It's easy to abuse by taking an early lead then taking the enemies intel once more and camping with it where they can't kill you.[/quote]

I expect if you're good enough to hold the flag forever then you're good enough to just win anyway (keep in mind I am suggesting we ban all the idiotdefense classes too). This could probably be mitigated with sensible map design too. If that doesn't work it's easy enough to add a "shot clock" like the stalemate thread. Make it so the flag resets if you don't cap within 2 minutes or something.

edit: actually the sticky/rocket jumper could make problems with this :D
5
#5
5 Frags +
DavidTheWin
edit: actually the sticky/rocket jumper could make problems with this :D

They are banned from holding intel.

[quote=DavidTheWin]

edit: actually the sticky/rocket jumper could make problems with this :D[/quote]

They are banned from holding intel.
6
#6
11 Frags +

i'm going to bump this because i think my ideas are great

i'm going to bump this because i think my ideas are great
7
#7
0 Frags +

Ctf in CA was fun as shit just put bhop in and im sold

Ctf in CA was fun as shit just put bhop in and im sold
8
#8
1 Frags +
tstmDavidTheWin
edit: actually the sticky/rocket jumper could make problems with this :D

They are banned from holding intel.

Nice misquote

[quote=tstm][quote=DavidTheWin]

edit: actually the sticky/rocket jumper could make problems with this :D[/quote]

They are banned from holding intel.[/quote]

Nice misquote
9
#9
0 Frags +
DavidTheWintstmDavidTheWin
edit: actually the sticky/rocket jumper could make problems with this :D

They are banned from holding intel.

Nice misquote

??

It's a stat on the jumpers. You can't hold the intel with them.

[quote=DavidTheWin][quote=tstm][quote=DavidTheWin]

edit: actually the sticky/rocket jumper could make problems with this :D[/quote]

They are banned from holding intel.[/quote]

Nice misquote[/quote]

??

It's a stat on the jumpers. You can't hold the intel with them.
10
#10
1 Frags +

David didn't say it. mikejs did.

David didn't say it. mikejs did.
11
#11
0 Frags +

What if you're within a certain radius of your flag it returns faster instead of touch returning. Idk, maybe it's not even needed at all.

What if you're within a certain radius of your flag it returns faster instead of touch returning. Idk, maybe it's not even needed at all.
12
#12
0 Frags +

Im not 100% on this, however with the correct maps this could definitely be something bigger in the future.

Im not 100% on this, however with the correct maps this could definitely be something bigger in the future.
13
#13
0 Frags +

tbh i don't think tf2 has the movement mechanics for CTF but i guess it depends on how the maps are designed

tbh i don't think tf2 has the movement mechanics for CTF but i guess it depends on how the maps are designed
14
#14
0 Frags +

Can you make it so the flag timer charges up after you grab it instead of instantly resetting
That's really the only thing that I think TF CTF is missing, suicides to reset the flag timer are too useful right now
Also from experience warsow's ctf maps are worse dogtrash than tf2's mediocre ones, regardless how good their designs look. They would be even worse in TF2.

Can you make it so the flag timer charges up after you grab it instead of instantly resetting
That's really the only thing that I think TF CTF is missing, suicides to reset the flag timer are too useful right now
Also from experience warsow's ctf maps are worse dogtrash than tf2's mediocre ones, regardless how good their designs look. They would be even worse in TF2.
15
#15
1 Frags +

I think the key is mobility, it ends up being scouts cap intels while everyone else dm's. Dunno if its fixable without upsetting the balance of everything. maybe something simple like everyone with flag moves scout speed but thats fucking stupid and OP

I think the key is mobility, it ends up being scouts cap intels while everyone else dm's. Dunno if its fixable without upsetting the balance of everything. maybe something simple like everyone with flag moves scout speed but thats fucking stupid and OP
16
#16
0 Frags +
Tino_Ctf in CA was fun as shit just put bhop in and im soldCryptotbh i don't think tf2 has the movement mechanics for CTF but i guess it depends on how the maps are designed

We have games with ctf and bhopping already. I want to see people make maps that play off the movement mechanics TF2 has now (like all of our current maps do) without having to worry about ctf's inflexible/terrible ruleset ruining everything.

wareyaCan you make it so the flag timer charges up after you grab it instead of instantly resetting
That's really the only thing that I think TF CTF is missing, suicides to reset the flag timer are too useful right now

The plugin lets you disable touch returns and adjust the flag return timer already. It defaults to 10s which I think is good enough

wareyaAlso from experience warsow's ctf maps are worse dogtrash than tf2's mediocre ones, regardless how good their designs look.

I don't think wsw ctf is good but I wanted examples

prestigeI think the key is mobility, it ends up being scouts cap intels while everyone else dm's

in cp scouts cap points while everyone else dm's 8)

[quote=Tino_]Ctf in CA was fun as shit just put bhop in and im sold[/quote]
[quote=Crypto]tbh i don't think tf2 has the movement mechanics for CTF but i guess it depends on how the maps are designed[/quote]

We have games with ctf and bhopping already. I want to see people make maps that play off the movement mechanics TF2 has now (like all of our current maps do) without having to worry about ctf's inflexible/terrible ruleset ruining everything.

[quote=wareya]Can you make it so the flag timer charges up after you grab it instead of instantly resetting
That's really the only thing that I think TF CTF is missing, suicides to reset the flag timer are too useful right now[/quote]

The plugin lets you disable touch returns and adjust the flag return timer already. It defaults to 10s which I think is good enough

[quote=wareya]Also from experience warsow's ctf maps are worse dogtrash than tf2's mediocre ones, regardless how good their designs look.[/quote]

I don't think wsw ctf is good but I wanted examples

[quote=prestige]I think the key is mobility, it ends up being scouts cap intels while everyone else dm's[/quote]

in cp scouts cap points while everyone else dm's [size=14][b]8)[/b][/size]
17
#17
0 Frags +
mikejswareyaCan you make it so the flag timer charges up after you grab it instead of instantly resetting
That's really the only thing that I think TF CTF is missing, suicides to reset the flag timer are too useful right now

The plugin lets you disable touch returns and adjust the flag return timer already. It defaults to 10s which I think is good enough

That's not what I'm talking about at all. I don't care about the flag return timer either way as long as it has a sane default, but I think touch returns are too much for a TF style game, which is why I care about this particular idea. When you pick up the flag, it retains the time it had when you picked it up, and it recharges while you're holding it. Then, when you drop it, it drops with that charge. When you pick up the intel from its base, it'll either start with an empty charge. I don't know what a good charge rate would be for TF2, but in Gang Garrison 2, three seconds for an entire timer works fine. The only real point is so that if you die right after tagging the intel, you don't get a full reset, so it's less rewarding and you don't get people suiciding into the intel for just that reason.

[quote=mikejs]
[quote=wareya]Can you make it so the flag timer charges up after you grab it instead of instantly resetting
That's really the only thing that I think TF CTF is missing, suicides to reset the flag timer are too useful right now[/quote]

The plugin lets you disable touch returns and adjust the flag return timer already. It defaults to 10s which I think is good enough[/quote]
That's not what I'm talking about at all. I don't care about the flag return timer either way as long as it has a sane default, but I think touch returns are too much for a TF style game, which is why I care about this particular idea. When you pick up the flag, it retains the time it had when you picked it up, and it recharges while you're holding it. Then, when you drop it, it drops with that charge. When you pick up the intel from its base, it'll either start with an empty charge. I don't know what a good charge rate would be for TF2, but in Gang Garrison 2, three seconds for an entire timer works fine. The only real point is so that if you die right after tagging the intel, you don't get a full reset, so it's less rewarding and you don't get people suiciding into the intel for just that reason.
18
#18
0 Frags +
wareyaThat's not what I'm talking about at all. I don't care about the flag return timer either way as long as it has a sane default, but I think touch returns are too much for a TF style game, which is why I care about this particular idea. When you pick up the flag, it retains the time it had when you picked it up, and it recharges while you're holding it. Then, when you drop it, it drops with that charge.

Oh I see.

I don't like adding complexity like this. More so when it's something that would be helpful to have on the HUD but can't be.

I also think that so long as you don't make the return timer so long that 1/2 people can respawn and bomb-reset the flag forever it will be like suiciding onto points in cp - allows clutch plays and not actually a problem at all.

[quote=wareya]That's not what I'm talking about at all. I don't care about the flag return timer either way as long as it has a sane default, but I think touch returns are too much for a TF style game, which is why I care about this particular idea. When you pick up the flag, it retains the time it had when you picked it up, and it recharges while you're holding it. Then, when you drop it, it drops with that charge.[/quote]

Oh I see.

I don't like adding complexity like this. More so when it's something that would be helpful to have on the HUD but can't be.

I also think that so long as you don't make the return timer so long that 1/2 people can respawn and bomb-reset the flag forever it will be like suiciding onto points in cp - allows clutch plays and not actually a problem at all.
19
#19
1 Frags +

Having a charge timer still allows for clutch plays, it just keeps people who can't put up a fight from dragging the intel away or keeping it ready for someone else to come get it -- you can deny CP cap progress completely, but you can't do that for flag cap progress. Having a charging timer actually makes flags more like CPs.
It's really not more complicated than allowing for throwing or flag returning. In fact, they affect the way the gamemode's state lines up a lot more. The only reason to think of them as more normal is because so many other games do them, but the charge mechanic's only done by one.

Having a charge timer still allows for clutch plays, it just keeps people who can't put up a fight from dragging the intel away or keeping it ready for someone else to come get it -- you can deny CP cap progress completely, but you can't do that for flag cap progress. Having a charging timer actually makes flags [i]more[/i] like CPs.
It's really not more complicated than allowing for throwing or flag returning. In fact, they affect the way the gamemode's state lines up a lot more. The only reason to think of them as more normal is because so many other games do them, but the charge mechanic's only done by one.
20
#20
0 Frags +

Why not just like a proximity timed return? If you're near the flag for say 5 seconds it'll return, rather than instantly when you touch it. Or is that what you're saying with the 10s return timer?

Why not just like a proximity timed return? If you're near the flag for say 5 seconds it'll return, rather than instantly when you touch it. Or is that what you're saying with the 10s return timer?
21
#21
0 Frags +

I like that idea, it's like reverting neutral CPs.

I like that idea, it's like reverting neutral CPs.
Please sign in through STEAM to post a comment.