AloSecyou two are talking about apples and oranges. beasly is talking about situational offclassing and kirby you are talking about straight out trolling. neither is helped by entirely removing sniper, however. the only thing to stop trolling is action from an admin being restriction/ban
his statement directly says otherwise, unless i'm missing a part of that argument in an earlier post of his.
[quote=AloSec]you two are talking about apples and oranges. beasly is talking about situational offclassing and kirby you are talking about straight out trolling. neither is helped by entirely removing sniper, however. the only thing to stop trolling is action from an admin being restriction/ban[/quote]
his statement directly says otherwise, unless i'm missing a part of that argument in an earlier post of his.
I played in a couple of mixes over the weekend.
We were on snackwater last and I thought "man, I really wish I could snipe right now, bummer."
Then I shrugged and ran into lobby to try and force the medic instead.
I don't understand what all the hoo-hah is about; banning sniper (et al) will just foster an environment where people have to learn the primary classes better, and I agree that it's probably a better experience for newer players. That is what the channel was initially intended to be, right?
I played in a couple of mixes over the weekend.
We were on snackwater last and I thought "man, I really wish I could snipe right now, bummer."
Then I shrugged and ran into lobby to try and force the medic instead.
I don't understand what all the hoo-hah is about; banning sniper (et al) will just foster an environment where people have to learn the primary classes better, and I agree that it's probably a better experience for newer players. That is what the channel was initially intended to be, right?
Is it against the rules to offclass push from last to their second?
Pretty sure a pug team i medded for did that.
If so, feel free to ban me, i totally thought it was a great idea. (the map was metalworks, nbd)
Is it against the rules to offclass push from last to their second?
Pretty sure a pug team i medded for did that.
If so, feel free to ban me, i totally thought it was a great idea. (the map was metalworks, nbd)
kirbyAloSecyou two are talking about apples and oranges. beasly is talking about situational offclassing and kirby you are talking about straight out trolling. neither is helped by entirely removing sniper, however. the only thing to stop trolling is action from an admin being restriction/ban
his statement directly says otherwise, unless i'm missing a part of that argument in an earlier post of his.
his statement about going spy I think was a joke
but if not he'll just be restricted sooner or later like he should be, so what's the big deal
[quote=kirby][quote=AloSec]you two are talking about apples and oranges. beasly is talking about situational offclassing and kirby you are talking about straight out trolling. neither is helped by entirely removing sniper, however. the only thing to stop trolling is action from an admin being restriction/ban[/quote]
his statement directly says otherwise, unless i'm missing a part of that argument in an earlier post of his.[/quote]
his statement about going spy I think was a joke
but if not he'll just be restricted sooner or later like he should be, so what's the big deal
AloSeckirbyAloSecyou two are talking about apples and oranges. beasly is talking about situational offclassing and kirby you are talking about straight out trolling. neither is helped by entirely removing sniper, however. the only thing to stop trolling is action from an admin being restriction/ban
his statement directly says otherwise, unless i'm missing a part of that argument in an earlier post of his.
his statement about going spy I think was a joke
but if not he'll just be restricted sooner or later like he should be, so what's the big deal
no problem with me, but with others
[quote=AloSec][quote=kirby][quote=AloSec]you two are talking about apples and oranges. beasly is talking about situational offclassing and kirby you are talking about straight out trolling. neither is helped by entirely removing sniper, however. the only thing to stop trolling is action from an admin being restriction/ban[/quote]
his statement directly says otherwise, unless i'm missing a part of that argument in an earlier post of his.[/quote]
his statement about going spy I think was a joke
but if not he'll just be restricted sooner or later like he should be, so what's the big deal[/quote]
no problem with me, but with others
In TFC full time snipers played in comp leagues where every other class was banned. SLV3 anyone? Lets give these guys a place to play without ruining everyone else's fun. Bloodsire can rule the world again and we won't tell Foos.
In TFC full time snipers played in comp leagues where every other class was banned. SLV3 anyone? Lets give these guys a place to play without ruining everyone else's fun. Bloodsire can rule the world again and we won't tell Foos.
The major argument against sniper in this thread seems to be revolving around skill discrepancy and new players, but I think you guy are missing what the demographic of tf2mix actually is... While it's true that it was intended for new players who can't get picked in pugna, and after playing ~400 games on tf2mix I'm gonna have to say that a very large portion of the demographic is not new players. Pugna is dead nearly the entire day before 9 or 10 EST, and even then, it's mostly invite players getting picked, which leaves IM and Main players around to go play in tf2mix.
I've played many captain games where every single person is an IM capable player, not new players. Perhaps a pregame vote to re-enable sniper would be beneficial, if you guys are adamant on keeping sniper banned.
Also, I'm still not understanding why you aren't just banning people abusing sniper. If someone is going to be an idiot and ruin a pug on sniper, then they are going to be an idiot and ruin the pug on any class.
The major argument against sniper in this thread seems to be revolving around skill discrepancy and new players, but I think you guy are missing what the demographic of tf2mix actually is... While it's true that it was intended for new players who can't get picked in pugna, and after playing ~400 games on tf2mix I'm gonna have to say that a very large portion of the demographic is not new players. Pugna is dead nearly the entire day before 9 or 10 EST, and even then, it's mostly invite players getting picked, which leaves IM and Main players around to go play in tf2mix.
I've played many captain games where every single person is an IM capable player, not new players. Perhaps a pregame vote to re-enable sniper would be beneficial, if you guys are adamant on keeping sniper banned.
Also, I'm still not understanding why you aren't just banning people abusing sniper. If someone is going to be an idiot and ruin a pug on sniper, then they are going to be an idiot and ruin the pug on any class.
i have a question for all of you
how is getting raped by a top level sniper any different from getting raped by a top level scout?
i have a question for all of you
how is getting raped by a top level sniper any different from getting raped by a top level scout?
kirbyAloSecyou two are talking about apples and oranges. beasly is talking about situational offclassing and kirby you are talking about straight out trolling. neither is helped by entirely removing sniper, however. the only thing to stop trolling is action from an admin being restriction/ban
his statement directly says otherwise, unless i'm missing a part of that argument in an earlier post of his.
in no way did i imply that i'm okay with perma offclassing.
[quote=kirby][quote=AloSec]you two are talking about apples and oranges. beasly is talking about situational offclassing and kirby you are talking about straight out trolling. neither is helped by entirely removing sniper, however. the only thing to stop trolling is action from an admin being restriction/ban[/quote]
his statement directly says otherwise, unless i'm missing a part of that argument in an earlier post of his.[/quote] in no way did i imply that i'm okay with perma offclassing.
hoolii have a question for all of you
how is getting raped by a top level sniper any different from getting raped by a top level scout?
Getting raped by a top-level scout is better to learn from and improve off of than a top-level sniper.
[quote=hooli]i have a question for all of you
how is getting raped by a top level sniper any different from getting raped by a top level scout?[/quote]
Getting raped by a top-level scout is better to learn from and improve off of than a top-level sniper.
Why not make it so on captain games where mostly open+ players play let them snipe but on first come/first serve games make it so you can't snipe.
Why not make it so on captain games where mostly open+ players play let them snipe but on first come/first serve games make it so you can't snipe.
TurinWhy not make it so on captain games where mostly open+ players play let them snipe but on first come/first serve games make it so you can't snipe.
Sounds like you're making a Bill of Rights for TF2 >_<
[quote=Turin]Why not make it so on captain games where mostly open+ players play let them snipe but on first come/first serve games make it so you can't snipe.[/quote]
Sounds like you're making a Bill of Rights for TF2 >_<
clorgjake_deskoolb is a nice person if u dont get on her nerves, aka offclassing :/
img
please tell me more about my opinion
[quote=clorg][quote=jake_des]koolb is a nice person if u dont get on her nerves, aka offclassing :/[/quote]
img[/quote]
please tell me more about my opinion
BuschmasterACRhoolii have a question for all of you
how is getting raped by a top level sniper any different from getting raped by a top level scout?
Getting raped by a top-level scout is better to learn from and improve off of than a top-level sniper.
ya, cause getting 2 shot over and over again by a scout that +fwds because he knows he can rape any two people on your team 1v2 is a real good learning opportunity.
[quote=BuschmasterACR][quote=hooli]i have a question for all of you
how is getting raped by a top level sniper any different from getting raped by a top level scout?[/quote]
Getting raped by a top-level scout is better to learn from and improve off of than a top-level sniper.[/quote]
ya, cause getting 2 shot over and over again by a scout that +fwds because he knows he can rape any two people on your team 1v2 is a real good learning opportunity.
breloomBuschmasterACRhoolii have a question for all of you
how is getting raped by a top level sniper any different from getting raped by a top level scout?
Getting raped by a top-level scout is better to learn from and improve off of than a top-level sniper.
ya, cause getting 2 shot over and over again by a scout that +fwds because he knows he can rape any two people on your team 1v2 is a real good learning opportunity.
ok then lets ban all high IM+ scouts from mix
[quote=breloom][quote=BuschmasterACR][quote=hooli]i have a question for all of you
how is getting raped by a top level sniper any different from getting raped by a top level scout?[/quote]
Getting raped by a top-level scout is better to learn from and improve off of than a top-level sniper.[/quote]
ya, cause getting 2 shot over and over again by a scout that +fwds because he knows he can rape any two people on your team 1v2 is a real good learning opportunity.[/quote]
ok then lets ban all high IM+ scouts from mix
BuschmasterACRhoolii have a question for all of you
how is getting raped by a top level sniper any different from getting raped by a top level scout?
Getting raped by a top-level scout is better to learn from and improve off of than a top-level sniper.
It's actually equivalent. Hooli brings up a great point.
If your scouts can't +forward a sniper (and effectively dodge a point blank quickscope...), or a soldier can't bomb him effectively (try not landing on TOP of him next time, so you never have to strafe into his scope?), or countersnipe, then you really should lose to the person.
Max is an exception I'd say, not the standard TF2Mix full time, or even excessive, sniper.
I can definitely see how IM/Main players in Mix is a bit ridiculous, but just as Hooli said, they can be playing their mains, or even not, and still wreck you. So what's the issue?
Whoever said banning the player > the class has had the most constructive advice in this thread so far.
TF2 is an open, beautiful game. You can play it how you like, with some constraints to keep it competitive. However, if a soldier wants to, they can get amazing with the rocket jumper and market gardener, given enough time and high level practice. Yes, that would be incredibly annoying, it's a borderline pick class, even. The question though, is how can you dare ban it? How can you, because you're not (yet) capable of countering something, ban it? You remove the validity from someone else's great work. Learn to counter it, instead of taking the easy way out. Nobody gets better that way.
[quote=BuschmasterACR][quote=hooli]i have a question for all of you
how is getting raped by a top level sniper any different from getting raped by a top level scout?[/quote]
Getting raped by a top-level scout is better to learn from and improve off of than a top-level sniper.[/quote]
It's actually equivalent. Hooli brings up a great point.
If your scouts can't +forward a sniper (and effectively dodge a point blank quickscope...), or a soldier can't bomb him effectively (try not landing on TOP of him next time, so you never have to strafe into his scope?), or countersnipe, then you really should lose to the person.
Max is an exception I'd say, not the standard TF2Mix full time, or even excessive, sniper.
I can definitely see how IM/Main players in Mix is a bit ridiculous, but just as Hooli said, they can be playing their mains, or even not, and still wreck you. So what's the issue?
Whoever said banning the player > the class has had the most constructive advice in this thread so far.
TF2 is an open, beautiful game. You can play it how you like, with some constraints to keep it competitive. However, if a soldier wants to, they can get amazing with the rocket jumper and market gardener, given enough time and high level practice. Yes, that would be incredibly annoying, it's a borderline pick class, even. The question though, is how can you dare ban it? How can you, because you're not (yet) capable of countering something, ban it? You remove the validity from someone else's great work. Learn to counter it, instead of taking the easy way out. Nobody gets better that way.
This type of thing doesn't solve any issues with sniper in mix
If someone is playing sniper to troll/ruin a mix, ban him during or after the mix. Problem solved
If a player is destroying the mix by being really good at sniper, to the point he can play it full time without hindering his team, maybe you should not stand in his sight lines and focus him down better?
At the end of the day, if someone's aim on sniper is sooo good in mix that he can completely destroy the enemy team, how much worse would it be if he was on scout?
Food for thought.
This type of thing doesn't solve any issues with sniper in mix
If someone is playing sniper to troll/ruin a mix, ban him during or after the mix. Problem solved
If a player is destroying the mix by being really good at sniper, to the point he can play it full time without hindering his team, maybe you should not stand in his sight lines and focus him down better?
At the end of the day, if someone's aim on sniper is sooo good in mix that he can completely destroy the enemy team, how much worse would it be if he was on scout?
Food for thought.
Some good snipers are absolutely trash at scout.
That said, because of the organization that you find in mix's sniper is hard to counter. As other have said, if you're good at sniper go play it in a league (6v6) and see how it works. If you just wanna kill people worse than you, go pub.
Some good snipers are absolutely trash at scout.
That said, because of the organization that you find in mix's sniper is hard to counter. As other have said, if you're good at sniper go play it in a league (6v6) and see how it works. If you just wanna kill people worse than you, go pub.
Having enough admins to please everybody is really hard. The whole thing is run on a voluntary level, nobody is getting paid and very few people like to do things on their good will. It's also hard to spot the ill-disposed candidates to the honest ones. Most of the best candidates aren't asking it and when we ask them they refuse.
I feel that the current admins are doing a decent job. It's really hard to be the police, even when you do your job right an admin will make mistakes.
I am too busy lately to take any decisions regarding what is going on admin wise and even change wise. I think sniping should be allowed and offclassing should be allowed. Any issues regarding this stuff should be taken care of by an admin individually but I will let the people I trust test things out and get some feedback from you guys.
Having enough admins to please everybody is really hard. The whole thing is run on a voluntary level, nobody is getting paid and very few people like to do things on their good will. It's also hard to spot the ill-disposed candidates to the honest ones. Most of the best candidates aren't asking it and when we ask them they refuse.
I feel that the current admins are doing a decent job. It's really hard to be the police, even when you do your job right an admin will make mistakes.
I am too busy lately to take any decisions regarding what is going on admin wise and even change wise. I think sniping should be allowed and offclassing should be allowed. Any issues regarding this stuff should be taken care of by an admin individually but I will let the people I trust test things out and get some feedback from you guys.
PapaSmurf323It was me
and if my "its not 2soldiers,2scouts,1demo,1medic" agenda continues
all offclassing will be banned
Next step: ban maps that aren't badlands
[quote=PapaSmurf323]It was me
and if my "its not 2soldiers,2scouts,1demo,1medic" agenda continues
all offclassing will be banned[/quote]
Next step: ban maps that aren't badlands
sniper doesnt really bother me unless the game isnt moving,. if you're pushing the last point, waiting for 15 minutes until your sniper gets "hot" to get more than 1 kill, it's annoying. or if every push fails because you're missing a scout to clean up the damage, etc.
basically if you're bad just dont play sniper
also #3 a mozart techno remix cmon
sniper doesnt really bother me unless the game isnt moving,. if you're pushing the last point, waiting for 15 minutes until your sniper gets "hot" to get more than 1 kill, it's annoying. or if every push fails because you're missing a scout to clean up the damage, etc.
basically if you're bad just dont play sniper
also #3 a mozart techno remix cmon
miwo
also #3 a mozart techno remix cmon
Sometimes you just need a mozart techno remix.
[quote=miwo]
also #3 a mozart techno remix cmon[/quote]
Sometimes you just need a mozart techno remix.
you guys never fuckin learn. i pulled this shit on #tf2.gather.us years ago.
you guys never fuckin learn. i pulled this shit on #tf2.gather.us years ago.
We don't have any of these restrictions on tf2pickup.net and the times that the abusing of offclass has happened we have dealt with it on a per case basis and we literally had 0 problems with it. The only rule remotely close is "No permanent offclassing", other than that everything goes, as it should.
Pickups are a practice environment , if you're not emulating everything that could happen on a normal 6s game then you're not practicing as good as you could be. Sure, running sniper on an official/scrim can be much harder and more rewarding, but running it in a pug still teaches you a lot of things, map awareness, focus calls, positioning, etc. If your team is not completely retarded there is 0 issues with it, and if you can't deal with it, it's your own fault. Dealing with snipers should be a basic issue, the sooner you deal with it the less your problems will be. Even a div6 team can do it.
Seems to me that if tf2mix caters to a newer audience what you are making is just alienating new players because of those silly restrictions instead of making them want to play.
We don't have any of these restrictions on tf2pickup.net and the times that the abusing of offclass has happened we have dealt with it on a per case basis and we literally had 0 problems with it. The only rule remotely close is "No permanent offclassing", other than that everything goes, as it should.
Pickups are a practice environment , if you're not emulating everything that could happen on a normal 6s game then you're not practicing as good as you could be. Sure, running sniper on an official/scrim can be much harder and more rewarding, but running it in a pug still teaches you a lot of things, map awareness, focus calls, positioning, etc. If your team is not completely retarded there is 0 issues with it, and if you can't deal with it, it's your own fault. Dealing with snipers should be a basic issue, the sooner you deal with it the less your problems will be. Even a div6 team can do it.
Seems to me that if tf2mix caters to a newer audience what you are making is just alienating new players because of those silly restrictions instead of making them want to play.
Lol, you NAs are so serious... do you guys really take mixes this seriously to even go and completely ban a class? haha. It's just sad...
Lol, you NAs are so serious... do you guys really take mixes this seriously to even go and completely ban a class? haha. It's just sad...
BananasaurusLol, you NAs are so serious... do you guys really take mixes this seriously to even go and completely ban a class? haha. It's just sad...
dang u r so superior guess u guys shoulda banned sniper in 1776
[quote=Bananasaurus]Lol, you NAs are so serious... do you guys really take mixes this seriously to even go and completely ban a class? haha. It's just sad...[/quote]
dang u r so superior guess u guys shoulda banned sniper in 1776
Mr_OwlBananasaurusLol, you NAs are so serious... do you guys really take mixes this seriously to even go and completely ban a class? haha. It's just sad...
dang u r so superior guess u guys shoulda banned sniper in 1776
Not saying we are superior. But we don't let a few -AA- wannabes full time sniping ruin everyone elses fun. Just an over-reaction on the tf2mix admins' part.
[quote=Mr_Owl][quote=Bananasaurus]Lol, you NAs are so serious... do you guys really take mixes this seriously to even go and completely ban a class? haha. It's just sad...[/quote]
dang u r so superior guess u guys shoulda banned sniper in 1776[/quote]
Not saying we are superior. But we don't let a few -AA- wannabes full time sniping ruin everyone elses fun. Just an over-reaction on the tf2mix admins' part.