peek spam force the heavy then run away with ur better uber and sticky up z or garage side so that whatever isnt near the heavy dies

also feel like sending at least a roamer down dropdown would net u a free frag or two

u shouldnt be going past the point though, if u let ur pocket solo on the heavy and ur demo/roamer are watching flank/z/uptop u should be able to outspam and edge the point as long as u dont overcommit

heavies cant move and get overwhelmed easy, maybe uber a scout past him or something

yea tagging along with what mason said, if they only have the 2 people alive you should be able to take better positions on second point using your numbers. from there try to get a favorable force.

We talk a little about this kinda stuff here (also @ 19 mins)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZ5ZPOCWNS8&feature=youtu.be&t=16m45s

But to answer your question specifically its really important to understand the dynamics of attacking 2nd with player advantage (or equal ubers player advantage - because if they all sack and you guys hold uber and don't die it will be easy). If you have uber disadvantage and but you are like 5v2 or 6v2 obviously there are two main obstacles you will have to overcome to cap the point:

1) They have uber

2) Their spawns

Really overcoming these things relies mostly on efficiently dealing with their suicide. If you can consistently prevent their bomb from forcing your med, or are willing to sacrifice your uber to keep all of your players alive and healthy then you will be in a much better position to capitalise on the massive player advantage that they are feeding you. When you're actually pushing into second it will change a bit depending on what class they left with the medic - which will typically be a demo or the pocket (or a heavy... I guess). If its a demo obviously you have to be wary of stickies but it should realistically be easier to force & then compromise (i.e. get away from/waste) the inevitable uber. If its a pocket then you have more options, probably one of the better ones is putting early pressure on their combo - e.g. as a roamer you could sit close in top when the suicide is comign and either pick a duel on a player that wants to bomb (if you're confident - you shouldnt really die if you dont overcommit) or wait it out and jump into second from top during their suicide/literally just after to force their med OR weasel your way into stairs and start applying pressure through your presence on the flank (e.g. show yourself moving up through into right yard so they have to pull back from the point - scouts *can* do this kinda thing too - but again make sure you're dealing with the suicide effectively).

On that note I think dropdown is really a terrible idea in this situation. You waste so much potential effectiveness going dropdown unless you get absolutely perfect timing and your team is super fast to capitalise on their bomb (e.g. sticky trap on the door kills 3 or w/e), if you want to put pressure on their spawners you're infinitely more useful being an active presence in pressuring their combo out (or being something to shoot at in the uber) getting a small amount of captime, then just pushing into right yard and putting pressure on them directly/go camp on the window or something. Taking second is SO much about point presence its ridiculous - even with uber advantage (they've probably popped already though!) it can be hard to take 2nd from a team with an established defence, so really you guys just want to be super fast in pressuring the point and then maintain a good 2nd hold like you would in any other situation depending on what happened during the retake.

tl;dr (im procrastinating) - be fast, dont die (unless you're trading up for kills/lots of position), kite the uber a bit, and just work at it. Its a difficult push to counter, I remember when we started doing it back in ~2010? or 2011 (idk yuki will correct me) we used to just literally sit at last for 4+ minutes last time constantly throwing 3-4 players because its so strong against teams that arent a) used to dealing with it effectively, or b) confident in their ability to push and make decisions quickly

Good luck :~)

it's very difficult to retake gran 2nd when the other team has uber, try and use the man advantage to force their uber.

Thinking along those lines, wouldn't flanking the combo (since they have zero mobility) with a roamer + aggro scout and then death-balling them in a 4v2 end-uber situation work out just fine?

The only thing that could harm you would be their respawns - but they'll actually not a huge consideration if you quickly retaliate against the 4 man sac play. Those respawns won't eat you for breakfast unless you stumble around for 4-5 seconds and fail to commit.

Yeah kinda - although there are a lot of factors that make this really difficult. The most important of these is a simple timing consideration - say you deal with the suicide at most you only have ~15-20 seconds to set this up and put it in motion (keep in mind that you cant just run your flank in way early because you need presence on the cap for this to be even remotely worth it) which is actually pretty tight in terms of timing a lot of the time.

The fact that they have uber also makes things difficult - the whole idea of their hold is literally that they want to bait the point right, they are trying to make you push and all they want to achieve is killing 1-2 players and (ideally) stopping your team from capping as a bonus. The reason they are going for this is that spawns are really fast, the point is in a natural choke where uber is just so strong, and gran last respawns are really shit (long + it takes you ages to get to the point + spawn is easy to lock off) so if you just throw your flank at them, even if you force, you're basically just handing them last point on a silver platter if they are any good (they use, kill roamer + scout, take stairs with their respawners while pressuring from wherever combo is, collapse on your team if they capped and stayed in/or just cap the point and start rolling on to last all before you spawn if they didnt stay in).

Basically its really dangerous - you REALLY dont want to lose any more than 1 player retaking 2nd if they still have uber, or you'll just collapse under their muscle and lose last before you get spawns.

edit: as for the 4v2 post uber situation its just really not going to happen like that unfortunately if they are any good - uber lasts 8 seconds if its not multi'd around, which is more than enough time for them to either get spawns, or fall back a little until they do get spawns and then just retake 2nd again with player advantage.

I'm probably not thinking straight, but let's say you throw your flank at them and get a force.

1. You drop two players and force. (your spawns don't come for 20 seconds, their spawns come in 4 seconds).
2. They receive spawns (your spawns don't arrive for 16 seconds) and you kite to last while holding uber.
3. They move the heavy and medic to height advantage for the ensuing push (your spawns don't arrive for 8 seconds).
4. They push a 6v4 (your spawns don't arrive for 7 seconds) from height advantage into last.
5. Your uber is forced in a 4v6 situation (your spawns don't arrive for 5 seconds).
6. Your uber kills 1-2 players, you are now on level ground at worst in terms of overall team health. They have advantage assuming their medic lives (which he should). Your spawns have now arrived by now.
7. You counterpush in a 6v5 situation. Their medic has a nice uber advatange, but you should be able to cut him off with your additional player.

Either my timing is a little generous towards the holding team - or I'm assuming that the pushing team is going to drop a player or two when fighting your uber (when I shouldn't).

------

Actually I'm dead wrong. All you'd want to do if you're the PUSHING team would be:

1. Buff all six.
2. Push on the side opposite the stickies.
3. Force the uber and scatter.
4. Allow your heavy and passive scout to trail in and wreck house.

Why waste time establishing height and waffling around, when you can just charge in and preempt the actions of the spawners?

I've already calculated that you'll have about 16 seconds until the defending team spawns, so as long as you force (and multi) them off by the 10-11 second point (which is VERY doable when pushing from lower shutters) it will be GG once the buffed heavy and scout see the post-uber fight.

Hopefully someone didn't say this already, but keep eyes on the enemy combo as much as possible, especially if they've done a 4 man sack in the past. Knowing where and when the bombs are coming will go a long way in maximizing your player advantage. So if you see their combo hanging out suspiciously far back you can prepare.

@Radium - pretty much everything I was saying was assuming the suicide forced your uber. The situation changes entirely if both teams have uber.

When you're trying to break down situations like this the most important thing is to always be thinking about what each team is trying to achieve, rather than just jumping straight into what you think they are going to do. So for the attacking team you're trying to take second with as little death as possible so you can a) hold it and b) hopefully get a kill and be able to start taking yard, mid etc.

For the defending team: you have 2 players up, your bomb failed, spawns in x seconds. Ideally you want to bait out the 2nd point as much as possible and try to a) get a kill b) enough damage that they have to back off a little c) delay uber as much as possible to allow for best possible post-uber with spawners and d) not get zoned out of 2nd/die.

Ignore thinking about how many seconds you have etc and just think in general terms (because you will never ever get a perfect push into second, and often the suiciders die at different times etc). Just try and work out how you go about achieving your goals.

I'm going to post a pretty general example of what would be good, you should think about it yourself though first before you read it. I can't stress enough how valuable it is to actually actively engage in thinking about these kinds of situations instead of just rote learning everything.

Also, @ Alleal - not a bad point, but its kinda unnecessary really. The most likely position for their players to come from is in top (at least 2-3 typically) so if you just sit a soldier kinda forward you'll be able to spot the attempt coming pretty efficiently (+ maybe deter it with good spam/or a duel) - you dont want to get caught though

The weird part about all of this is that "instinct" often takes you into a good position once you've seen enough pushes come and go. The game reduces itself to a series of informed reactions to the goals of each team. When both teams are in a good scrim/match, what I'll naturally do will be to position myself + my pocket in such a way that I achieve success through the denial of the opposing team's objective.

From a medic's POV, what is considered a "safe" or "dangerous" or "stupid" play is not really determined by some thought in a vacuum - but rather the relationship of that position+time within the context of the opposing team's uber.

Let's revisit the OP's question in terms of "enemy objectives triggering informed reactions":

Event: 4-Man Sacrifice forces your uber
- What they want: To buy time for their spawners to come back - and then re-push your last with a full uber advantage.
- How do you take it away: You change the LOCATION of their popped uber. There is a time constraint as it must happen BEFORE those spawners come back.
- Where do you want the NEW location to be: Across the 2nd point - and as cleanly as possible.
- How do you re-frame the enemy uber: You edge the point with a scout and spam the shutter across of you to holy hell and back. This will trigger an early pop as they do NOT want to have to use their uber to RE-capture 2nd point. At this point, kiting is a safe and natural response.

This tactic actually isn't some contrived concept of what could work - but rather an intuitive and quick reaction to a past event. You can't change the past, so instead of shitting yourself all you need to do is to modify what their long-term objective of the event really is... ...if you can.

----

I hate thinking - because doing too much of it reminds me of how dumb I really am.

Radium by the time you resist the push and make it to their 2nd point with heals, you're probably left with 5-12 seconds of spawn time left. If you throw two of your players at their combo for a force, they'll probably just push you with the 6v4, kite your uber to last and win.

I think on granary the best thing you can do is hold out their flank and prevent their flank from retaking stairs. Sticky off Z, corner cap, and try to make them use first. From there you get the favorable uber, control of stairs, and control of second point. With any luck, you'll get a pick or two with the uber and might get mid.

@aporia, you're probably right, especially for granary. I'm just thinking if I were directing a 4 man sack I would usually send my guys out a couple doors so they don't all get stuffed or suffer the same damage. So if I were defending it I would want to know where the soldiers were jumping from so I could deny the opening they create for the demo/other scout. Probably over thinking it though

The entire concept of actions becoming instinctivised necessitates experience though radium - and the best way to improve as an individual and as a team is to play consistently with a group of people, and spend time thinking about situations in the game which are challenging.

The problem with your analysis is that you're not only undervaluing the defensive capability of spamming second (do you really think that you can "edge" the point with one scout while spamming out the shutter?) The only way you are going to force them to use while ALSO taking position on second and preferably capping is through muscle, not spam - you need to commit to taking the ground & be willing to trade ubers if its necessary and you really need to prioritise getting the cap, because they aren't going to use early to stop one scout standing on the point (they'll just spam around the corner and pressure the scout off - they are waiting for a favourable block when there are players close to force multi).

If we were to follow through with your situation then you need to appreciate that it becomes a different push entirely. There's nothing necessarily wrong with slow pushing into 2nd with equal ubers and taking SOME ground while you have player advantage, but you need to be aware that their spawners will be present for the fight. So to respond to this you're going to have to make sure you have presence in stairs and and eye on low right, while also trying to muscle the point without being forced by spam from potentially 2-3 players and a hostile uber to consider if you take too much damage - which is important because in 2nd if you guys are at a significant health deficit then *most* likely you're going to have an extremely messy uber. Not to mention that during this entire exchange your player in stairs is likely getting pressured, and while its a strong position for a defending soldier there's nothing stopping the other team from wrapping into stairs, while pressuring you off the point with demo/med/scout maybe and jumping 2 soldiers into stairs (you cant have stickies on low right because you'll be using them for damage/to try and zone off the point so you can cap). If you lose that soldier on the flank, or he gets forced out, you're suddenly caught in an awkward situation as you not only have to be wary for a flank play onto your team getting kills/forcing you (even IF you've capped by this point it would be bad for you), you also have to watch for a backcap.

Basically what i was saying earlier is the best-possible outcome. You really just want to be fast, get the cap, and establish some presence with a favourable uber trade and try and capitalise on that.

Holy fuck brad did you actually get any part of your assignments done apart from the opening sentence?

Finished one :~D 2 to go :~(

u kill all of them but you dont die

Best thread on TFTV in recent memory, really enjoying seeing the different perspectives. Besides dingo's post, that is.

is that not the intended goal?

if you need explanation they want to kill ur important guy so u make him in spot where he's non kill then you kill all them that come to kill
edit for "tomroadrunner" (who the fuck is that): snipe the heavy or use a spy or push with your own heavy or just force their uber without ubering???
how ez is it to force a lone medic and a heavy holding last

You need to note how they performed the 4 man sac, because it sounds like they're getting in too easy. See who came from what entrances so the next time you can get a couple earlier kills and dampen the effectiveness of the bomb and/or offset their respawn timers which will make the force easier and after uber push more favorable for your team.

Also realize you're on the back foot and you have more too lose than they do at all times in this situation so know when to get the fuck out and reset.

Is he fucking WRONG though?

I'm glad it was well received, seemed like it would be a good change from the other posts here.

The original situation - SAAM's post - involved the holding team having a HEAVY and a medic. Heavy's primary cannot "work" the corners like the pocket's. A key question in this situation (6v2, they have 2nd and uber) is WHAT that sixth class really is.

In order for a HEAVY to chase the aggro scout off of point, he has to commit to the fight across two - and that opens him up to sticky fire and rockets from your soldiers. You may drop the scout - but you're going to achieve the REAL objective here - and that's forcing their uber over SECOND so that they can't make an advatangeous push onto last with their spawners. Once they pop to kill one scout, your call should be to have everyone scatter out to last (and you rebuild YOUR uber advantage).

With that said, if the winning team has a demo or pocket up (instead of a heavy), then you absolutely would NOT edge a scout since they'll abuse splash through the point (which as you mentioned earlier, is a chokepoint).

The whole reason behind having a SCOUT pressuring point is because the heavy cannot splash the scout off. The heavy must commit with his uber to stop the cap. If he backs off and waits for spawns, then it will be too late and he loses 2nd.

What's stopping the heavy from hiding in Z and blocking the cap in like 2 seconds radium? That's kind of the whole idea of the 4 man sac... Unless the scout delays his push the soldiers and demo won't be in position to damage the heavy yet so more likely you lose a scout without even forcing them. They will not need to commit an uber to that... He can just walk on the point and get a free kill. At which point your team might as well not even push in.

You said it right there. The scout must press the point as the demo/soldiers arrive in position. If he's too early then he's getting shut down. The scout is being used as bait - he is not going to force the uber.

What you COULD do if you hear a call that "heavy is in Z!" is to just have the demo come in from left shutter and lay down suppression fire onto Z. The key here - as aporia said earlier - is that SOMETHING needs to be controlling stairs/lunchbox and holding off their spawners from coming through a wide-open flank (they'll all come in right at the end of the engagement).

ctrl+f'd "forward" and didn't see anything useful. the 'counter' your looking for is to hold forward. since no team is going to 4-man sack on advantage and you should be pushing out when you have one.
the sack is designed to make it hard for you to push out provided the people who aren't sacking play it properly.
if you hold forward properly they'll be unable to do that shit, albeit forward holds usually have ways to break them. but they should have to lose numbers, health, and/or time in order to break it, in which case it's unlikely 4 players are going to be coming your way

all you nerds are talking about pushing out after you've let them sack, basically just giving them control over the tempo