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What are the subtle things top level players do?
1
#1
0 Frags +

I just got finished watching Beater's Legacy videos and they made me curious. Specifically, the B4nny Legacy video with his scout play juxtaposed with his old demo frags made me recall how worried everyone was when b4nny switched to scout. I remember a video(fully charged?) where platinum was doubtful that the switch would work because b4nny's influence on the match would be lessened. However, b4nny seemed to be just as game changing and formidable as ever. The same thing could be said of when platinum played switched to demo and when enigma played roamer.

Comp TF2 is a game that allows for a lot of nuance in play style. Obviously good coordination and DM ability can get you pretty far, but there are some intangibles that make a player/team go from being good to great. What are the subtle things high level players do that lower level players don't? What are the things that good DM ability and team play don't quite cover? What are the things that make you think a player is good at tf2 rather than good at their class? What makes brilliant play brilliant?

Edit: To be clear, I'm not looking for tips to improve my play. I love comp. tf2, but i basically never play it. I just wanted to hear some thoughts/discussion on what makes a good player/team become great. There are some great comments so far with thoughtful answers. I'm really glad that I bothered to post.

I just got finished watching Beater's Legacy videos and they made me curious. Specifically, the B4nny Legacy video with his scout play juxtaposed with his old demo frags made me recall how worried everyone was when b4nny switched to scout. I remember a video(fully charged?) where platinum was doubtful that the switch would work because b4nny's influence on the match would be lessened. However, b4nny seemed to be just as game changing and formidable as ever. The same thing could be said of when platinum played switched to demo and when enigma played roamer.

Comp TF2 is a game that allows for a lot of nuance in play style. Obviously good coordination and DM ability can get you pretty far, but there are some intangibles that make a player/team go from being good to great. What are the subtle things high level players do that lower level players don't? What are the things that good DM ability and team play don't quite cover? What are the things that make you think a player is good at tf2 rather than good at their class? What makes brilliant play brilliant?

Edit: To be clear, I'm not looking for tips to improve my play. I love comp. tf2, but i basically never play it. I just wanted to hear some thoughts/discussion on what makes a good player/team become great. There are some great comments so far with thoughtful answers. I'm really glad that I bothered to post.
2
#2
42 Frags +

they learn from mistakes and know when to push at any type of advantage

a lot of lower level players do the same thing over and over again to the point where it's predictable, and they usually have a hard time adapting to teams that do adapt

most of the people i've played with at the lower divisions don't understand why the same strat stops working and usually get angry to the point of cluttering comms

a lot of top players know how to support each other as well, playing off of each others damage is a very big thing

a lot of lower teams like to wait until they have uber before doing anything because they aren't sure about if they have advantage or not, while upper level teams will take on non-uber vs non-uber fights knowing that some players are low on health and they're at 80% charge

the three main parts of it are probably experience/effort/skill

they learn from mistakes and know when to push at any type of advantage

a lot of lower level players do the same thing over and over again to the point where it's predictable, and they usually have a hard time adapting to teams that do adapt

most of the people i've played with at the lower divisions don't understand why the same strat stops working and usually get angry to the point of cluttering comms

a lot of top players know how to support each other as well, playing off of each others damage is a very big thing

a lot of lower teams like to wait until they have uber before doing anything because they aren't sure about if they have advantage or not, while upper level teams will take on non-uber vs non-uber fights knowing that some players are low on health and they're at 80% charge

the three main parts of it are probably experience/effort/skill
3
#3
11 Frags +

fox seems to have hit the nail on the head

fox seems to have hit the nail on the head
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#4
16 Frags +

Another huge thing is confidence, you've got to be confident in the ability of your teammates as well as yourself to be able to play at a higher level. Like, you need to be able to trust your teammates to do their part, and you've got to play to the best level you can.

Another huge thing is confidence, you've got to be confident in the ability of your teammates as well as yourself to be able to play at a higher level. Like, you need to be able to trust your teammates to do their part, and you've got to play to the best level you can.
5
#5
12 Frags +

A couple of quantifiable things new players seem to think is unimportant is enemy ammo count and damage on it's own (as in no play advantage/uber advantage/positioning advantage, just damage). If your demo does a ton of damage at choke don't be afraid to push on it. Either their team will be backing up to get healed and you'll enter an uber exchange with a health advantage, or they'll be playing too close while hurt and you'll get a couple entry picks. Similarly, if you see the enemy demo throw at 6 stickies and doing 100 damage, take all the advantageous ground you can as fast as you can, because that demo can't stop you.

Fox got it though

A couple of quantifiable things new players seem to think is unimportant is enemy ammo count and damage on it's own (as in no play advantage/uber advantage/positioning advantage, just damage). If your demo does a ton of damage at choke don't be afraid to push on it. Either their team will be backing up to get healed and you'll enter an uber exchange with a health advantage, or they'll be playing too close while hurt and you'll get a couple entry picks. Similarly, if you see the enemy demo throw at 6 stickies and doing 100 damage, take all the advantageous ground you can as fast as you can, because that demo can't stop you.

Fox got it though
6
#6
5 Frags +

Reminds me of chess, where at international master level losing even a pawn without any quantifiable/potential positional gain is enough of a margin for your opponent to fairly easily push that advantage and win.

But at lower levels you can lose pawns and even pieces and not be completely out of the game because they might and often will make mistakes while trying to push on that advantage.

So sure in theory it sounds great to say that good players push without uber but maybe it's only because they don't really need that great of an advantage?

Reminds me of chess, where at international master level losing even a pawn without any quantifiable/potential positional gain is enough of a margin for your opponent to fairly easily push that advantage and win.

But at lower levels you can lose pawns and even pieces and not be completely out of the game because they might and often will make mistakes while trying to push on that advantage.

So sure in theory it sounds great to say that good players push without uber but maybe it's only because they don't really need that great of an advantage?
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#7
RGB LAN
11 Frags +
d4m0So sure in theory it sounds great to say that good players push without uber but maybe it's only because they don't really need that great of an advantage?

Non-uber vs non-uber pushes can be a great surprise if the opposing team isn't ready for it. It can also make a lot of sense in certain situations. For example, let's say the red team has mid on badlands, and the blue team is defending close at choke.

The red team have 5 players on mid and 1 player in the house.
The blue team have 4 players at choke and 2 players watching the valley flank near the resupply door.

In a non-uber vs non-uber situation, if red were to overwhelm the choke while the house guy were to push house out to patio, it would be 6vs4. Obviously, a 6vs4 fight would be great here for red, and it would take the 2 blue guys in valley about 4-6 seconds to get there in time to help. If red can get kills quickly enough before the 2 blue guys arrive from valley, it should be a winning fight for them.

But like all strategies, it requires good execution. I think that's mostly the difference between higher teams and lower teams. The lower teams lack execution, as well as not realizing their mistakes.

[quote=d4m0]So sure in theory it sounds great to say that good players push without uber but maybe it's only because they don't really need that great of an advantage?[/quote]

Non-uber vs non-uber pushes can be a great surprise if the opposing team isn't ready for it. It can also make a lot of sense in certain situations. For example, let's say the red team has mid on badlands, and the blue team is defending close at choke.

The red team have 5 players on mid and 1 player in the house.
The blue team have 4 players at choke and 2 players watching the valley flank near the resupply door.

In a non-uber vs non-uber situation, if red were to overwhelm the choke while the house guy were to push house out to patio, it would be 6vs4. Obviously, a 6vs4 fight would be great here for red, and it would take the 2 blue guys in valley about 4-6 seconds to get there in time to help. If red can get kills quickly enough before the 2 blue guys arrive from valley, it should be a winning fight for them.

But like all strategies, it requires good execution. I think that's mostly the difference between higher teams and lower teams. The lower teams lack execution, as well as not realizing their mistakes.
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#8
1 Frags +

Being a bad player myself my advice probably won't matter but...

A lot of what I have heard from team demo reviews of higher players and general tips from higher players is that, a lot comes down to team synergy and knowledge of how the team looks at the game. If your scout combo is good at working together without having to explain each move that can punish a lot of teams without complicating comms.
This can also apply to a combo of pocket and med and demo

Being a bad player myself my advice probably won't matter but...

A lot of what I have heard from team demo reviews of higher players and general tips from higher players is that, a lot comes down to team synergy and knowledge of how the team looks at the game. If your scout combo is good at working together without having to explain each move that can punish a lot of teams without complicating comms.
This can also apply to a combo of pocket and med and demo
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#9
17 Frags +

a lot of lower level players are terrible listeners

they don't realize that almost every play they make should be based on what the people around them are calling

a lot of lower level players are terrible listeners

they don't realize that almost every play they make should be based on what the people around them are calling
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#10
3 Frags +
mustardoverlorda lot of lower level players are terrible listeners

they don't realize that almost every play they make should be based on what the people around them are calling

woooord

[quote=mustardoverlord]a lot of lower level players are terrible listeners

they don't realize that almost every play they make should be based on what the people around them are calling[/quote]

woooord
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#11
-3 Frags +

you just have to "want" it more...like lebron

you just have to "want" it more...like lebron
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#12
1 Frags +

A lot of lower players are not good at calling advantages. And they try to stick too much to their pre game strats. While higher teams can adapt their plays to their opponents style.

A lot of lower players are not good at calling advantages. And they try to stick too much to their pre game strats. While higher teams can adapt their plays to their opponents style.
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#13
4 Frags +

pacing is also a thing that most high skilled players are good at. Ive seen so many people having troubles keeping up pace when they play with higher skilled people than them. getting into positions fast enough. managing to push fast enough, getting out fast enough and so on.. This all relies on you having the hp to do and thus means you cant take the fights or maneuvers that will put you "off sync" with your team.

pacing is also a thing that most high skilled players are good at. Ive seen so many people having troubles keeping up pace when they play with higher skilled people than them. getting into positions fast enough. managing to push fast enough, getting out fast enough and so on.. This all relies on you having the hp to do and thus means you cant take the fights or maneuvers that will put you "off sync" with your team.
14
#14
6 Frags +

you need to be confident when you play
edit: didnt see sleepinglifes comment, but its so true
if you go into a fight feeling like youre gonna smash kids youre far more likely to hit your shots

you need to be confident when you play
edit: didnt see sleepinglifes comment, but its so true
if you go into a fight feeling like youre gonna smash kids youre far more likely to hit your shots
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#15
6 Frags +
Starkyou need to be confident when you play

i wanted to add that upper level players know when its game(official matches) time
most upper level players step it up when it's match time because they know they gotta leave the bullshit behind
you gotta be focused on that W when it's match time

[quote=Stark]you need to be confident when you play
[/quote]

i wanted to add that upper level players know when its game(official matches) time
most upper level players step it up when it's match time because they know they gotta leave the bullshit behind
you gotta be focused on that W when it's match time
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#16
12 Frags +

A lot of lower players get stuck in lower divisions because they can't take criticism from their team and from higher players. They're stuck making the same mistakes because they won't listen. Large egos kill teams.

A lot of lower players get stuck in lower divisions because they can't take criticism from their team and from higher players. They're stuck making the same mistakes because they won't listen. Large egos kill teams.
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#17
10 Frags +
kevyou gotta be focused on that W when it's match time

especially scouts

[quote=kev]you gotta be focused on that [b]W[/b] when it's match time[/quote]

especially scouts
18
#18
3 Frags +

Almost every post in this thread starts with "A lot of"

A good way to learn synergy is to watch a situation in an STV demo between your team and their team, in slow motion. This gives a little time to watch what's happening on the enemy's side and your side, and if you can recall the comms at the time, or just recreate the comms, you can use it to give others a sense of what you're calling. Over time, your calls will be shorter and clearer for your team, and that can make a difference.

Almost every post in this thread starts with "A lot of"

A good way to learn synergy is to watch a situation in an STV demo between your team and their team, in slow motion. This gives a little time to watch what's happening on the enemy's side and your side, and if you can recall the comms at the time, or just recreate the comms, you can use it to give others a sense of what you're calling. Over time, your calls will be shorter and clearer for your team, and that can make a difference.
19
#19
6 Frags +

Press Tab alot

Press Tab alot
20
#20
7 Frags +

the more you psych your opponents up the worse you do,

if you don't have confidence that you can beat the other team, you've already lost.

the more you psych your opponents up the worse you do,

if you don't have confidence that you can beat the other team, you've already lost.
21
#21
-2 Frags +
Dontuberme I remember a video(fully charged?) where platinum was doubtful that the switch would work because b4nny's influence on the match would be lessened. However, b4nny seemed to be just as game changing and formidable as ever. The same thing could be said of when platinum played switched to demo and when enigma played roamer.

B4nny is a very, very good caller. That's probably the greatest asset a demo can bring a team (any combo class really.) The question was not about DM or anything like that, but whether or not xalox would be as formidable in his calling, while in actuality the choice was made to improve comms on the flank. Similarly, plat on demo puts him in effectively the same seat with calls, the same can be said about enigma on roamer. When it comes to that, it's always about anticipating what the enemy team will do and making a counter strategy. If you want good examples on those in both defensive and offensive positions, you can easily watch demos, find a good match (you know, 5-4's etc etc), then examine what both teams are doing, how they react to changes in the other team and how successful those strategies are.
I'd say for the most part, watch your STV's. Note your mistakes, fix them and think about what could happen and you'll get better in a few seasons.

[quote=Dontuberme] I remember a video(fully charged?) where platinum was doubtful that the switch would work because b4nny's influence on the match would be lessened. However, b4nny seemed to be just as game changing and formidable as ever. The same thing could be said of when platinum played switched to demo and when enigma played roamer.
[/quote]
B4nny is a very, very good caller. That's probably the greatest asset a demo can bring a team (any combo class really.) The question was not about DM or anything like that, but whether or not xalox would be as formidable in his calling, while in actuality the choice was made to improve comms on the flank. Similarly, plat on demo puts him in effectively the same seat with calls, the same can be said about enigma on roamer. When it comes to that, it's always about anticipating what the enemy team will do and making a counter strategy. If you want good examples on those in both defensive and offensive positions, you can easily watch demos, find a good match (you know, 5-4's etc etc), then examine what both teams are doing, how they react to changes in the other team and how successful those strategies are.
I'd say for the most part, watch your STV's. Note your mistakes, fix them and think about what could happen and you'll get better in a few seasons.
22
#22
16 Frags +

If you really want to get into it, take a demo of a back and forth game, as soon as something critical happens, pause the demo. Cycle to whomever and look at everyone else's position. Try to imagine from that players pov if you were communicated the information they just got based on their immediate situation, what you would do. Unpause and compare and see how it works out for them vs what might have happened or not happened if they did what you thought.

If you really want to get into it, take a demo of a back and forth game, as soon as something critical happens, pause the demo. Cycle to whomever and look at everyone else's position. Try to imagine from that players pov if you were communicated the information they just got based on their immediate situation, what you would do. Unpause and compare and see how it works out for them vs what might have happened or not happened if they did what you thought.
23
#23
18 Frags +

go in knowing you're better than everyone in the server and you're gonna fuck shit up. proceed to fuck shit up. tell your teammates they're beasts and the other team ain't shit. get in that ass.

go in [b]knowing[/b] you're better than everyone in the server and you're gonna fuck shit up. proceed to fuck shit up. tell your teammates they're beasts and the other team ain't shit. get in that ass.
24
#24
2 Frags +

Subtle things? The top gamers can read the game better than anyone else, especially the best callers.

Also top level players are more aware of what their teammates are doing, rather than just running in and depending on a call, they look and see how far ahead of their team they are, if they're disconnecting from their teammates, if they're baiting their teammates into a bad position...etc etc

So many scouts I see in lower levels just run in alone and try to meatshot everything but when you watch like the old Epsilon scouts they're literally waiting for their team to be in position and looking/listening for that support before they do the good shit. Fight as a team not one at a time.

Subtle things? The top gamers can read the game better than anyone else, especially the best callers.

Also top level players are more aware of what their teammates are doing, rather than just running in and depending on a call, they look and see how far ahead of their team they are, if they're disconnecting from their teammates, if they're baiting their teammates into a bad position...etc etc

So many scouts I see in lower levels just run in alone and try to meatshot everything but when you watch like the old Epsilon scouts they're literally waiting for their team to be in position and looking/listening for that support before they do the good shit. Fight as a team not one at a time.
25
#25
0 Frags +
PlatinumI as soon as something critical happens, pause the demo.

What are the critical things that make you pause a demo? Is there anything beyond pushes and holds that you define as critical?

Also, since you're here, as a top level player in a small community, does knowing your opponents significantly factor in to your play? Do you behave differently depending on the team you're fighting? What about 1v1s? if so, do you have any specific examples?

[quote=Platinum]I as soon as something critical happens, pause the demo. [/quote]

What are the critical things that make you pause a demo? Is there anything beyond pushes and holds that you define as critical?

Also, since you're here, as a top level player in a small community, does knowing your opponents significantly factor in to your play? Do you behave differently depending on the team you're fighting? What about 1v1s? if so, do you have any specific examples?
26
#26
1 Frags +

I have always felt that the combo and flank knew what each other were doing more often. Yes it's communication, but it's at level that most lower level players don't understand that it is very important. Did 150 damage to soldier in house, combo comes in and kills that soldier.

Also, how quickly upper level react to damage calls.

I have always felt that the combo and flank knew what each other were doing more often. Yes it's communication, but it's at level that most lower level players don't understand that it is very important. Did 150 damage to soldier in house, combo comes in and kills that soldier.

Also, how quickly upper level react to damage calls.
27
#27
15 Frags +

top teams have set mid strategies that they refer to as codenames, see:

ARCHANGEL
LOST VENUS
SCORPION
MAROON
'THE HURRICANE'

edit : can't believe i forgot RED ROCKET

top teams have set mid strategies that they refer to as codenames, see:

ARCHANGEL
LOST VENUS
SCORPION
MAROON
'THE HURRICANE'

edit : can't believe i forgot RED ROCKET
28
#28
4 Frags +

learn how to bait without being noticed

learn how to bait without being noticed
29
#29
2 Frags +
DontubermePlatinumI as soon as something critical happens, pause the demo.
What are the critical things that make you pause a demo? Is there anything beyond pushes and holds that you define as critical?

Also, since you're here, as a top level player in a small community, does knowing your opponents significantly factor in to your play? Do you behave differently depending on the team you're fighting? What about 1v1s? if so, do you have any specific examples?

Anything you want it to be? The split second after a soldier bombs on mid and its been called, see who targets him and who ignores and what are the repercussions? When a medic goes down, when a team has a bad uber, when a demo gets picked, when a sniper gets a headshot, Idk anything you want more information about how to handle.

Knowing your opponent definitely helps, when I played a shit load of tf2, I would be able to remember specific players aiming / movement styles to help me hit or Dodge them. Now I don't really play enough for that, but knowing your opponent only helps so much. Your own team coordination is much more beneficial than guessing that you know what the opponent might do, you definitely know what your own team is going to do (or should)

[quote=Dontuberme][quote=Platinum]I as soon as something critical happens, pause the demo. [/quote]

What are the critical things that make you pause a demo? Is there anything beyond pushes and holds that you define as critical?

Also, since you're here, as a top level player in a small community, does knowing your opponents significantly factor in to your play? Do you behave differently depending on the team you're fighting? What about 1v1s? if so, do you have any specific examples?[/quote]

Anything you want it to be? The split second after a soldier bombs on mid and its been called, see who targets him and who ignores and what are the repercussions? When a medic goes down, when a team has a bad uber, when a demo gets picked, when a sniper gets a headshot, Idk anything you want more information about how to handle.

Knowing your opponent definitely helps, when I played a shit load of tf2, I would be able to remember specific players aiming / movement styles to help me hit or Dodge them. Now I don't really play enough for that, but knowing your opponent only helps so much. Your own team coordination is much more beneficial than guessing that you know what the opponent might do, you definitely know what your own team is going to do (or should)
30
#30
-7 Frags +
mustardoverlorda lot of lower level players are terrible listeners

they don't realize that almost every play they make should be based on what the people around them are calling

how could you possibly know if anybody is listening to you, you never shut the fuck up long enough for them to let you know they're listening.

[quote=mustardoverlord]a lot of lower level players are terrible listeners

they don't realize that almost every play they make should be based on what the people around them are calling[/quote]
how could you possibly know if anybody is listening to you, you never shut the fuck up long enough for them to let you know they're listening.
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