nothing will change in how people play demo (if they dont want to that is) and it'll be fine. heavies will not suddenly be a staple of 6's because any coordinated team will focus him down, regardless of whether the demo is doing 50 or 100 with stickies.

I don't love the demoman changes exactly, but I don't see it as the end of the world. I do hope they tweak it a touch along the lines of Ma3laa's suggestion, but it isn't killing the game.

http://www.ugcleague.com/team_page.cfm?clan_id=9010
http://www.sizzlingstats.com/stats/144531

I ain't sayin' but I'm just sayin'.

Yes it's UGC steel. He's also played scrims with/against a plat UGC team performing just as well. I know UGC doesn't mean much, but plat UGC is usually about open considering a lot of my friends in open also play in silver. I also don't get why this forum likes to hate on UGC so much. I get that it's a circle jerk, but honestly a huge majority of this forum plays UGC right now, and a lot of them are at the steel level. They just like to pretend their better than everyone else because who cares. Besides you played steel last season.

I ain't sayin' but I'm just sayin'.

Holy crap you all need to stop crying and move on with it

That is the eventual solution to everything but when you've learned to play a class a certain way for 5 years and they change it in a blink of an eye (sort of balancing that was needed to happen say 6 years ago happens now?) it's a bitter pill to swallow. As time moves on so will TF2 and the way we adjust to changes, but right now I think I got a right to be pissed off now next time I log into TF2 I have to totally adjust the way I play my main class and the whole meta is different and we're coming to the end of a season where last two games really matter.

So y'know, fuck Valve - please tell me they at least optimized the game???

Long run this will work out, I am sure we can adjust but it's quite a shock to the system.

I think I like the scottish resistance a lot more than I used to.

Lots of people are saying they're getting better FPS, but there's still invisible players

hildreth serious question: in what way will you have to adjust your play at all? I mean aside from having to position yourself smarter because you cant 2 shot a scout with stickies at your feet anymore.

There hasn't been much time for thorough testing but I would say that the fact that you do on average 20-30% (this might not be exactly accurate but its what I got on average so far) less damage per game basically forces you to adapt a different playstyle. It's only logic to do so.

-Not as effective choke spamming as before.
-Sentries take much longer to take out (ridiculous 16 stickies for wrangled sentries from what I tested and heard)
-Surprise/Choke kritz astonishingly less effective
-Even worse close combat

Mids are kind of a joke, the damage still has to be dealt somehow, so nerfing the biggest damage dealer in the game won't make the game faster or more agressive, other classes will end up having to compensate for the damage the demo is lacking so you will end up with mids similar in time or even longer

This is from what I saw / experienced so far.

It's not as linear as, nerf demo damage->game is suddently better and faster. If valve really wanted to promote a more agressive playstyle maybe they should have added ramp up dmg to the self damage as well, that way you would get new crazy rollouts, more mobility and much more agressive jumping demos in trade for the less damage.

Not about the level (that's me on the other team, you know), it's that running demoknight got you guys to 3-5 in steel with a well-known and skilled demoknight.
While it's great and all that he can pull 330dpm by staying alive and cannonballing folks, the loss of area denial and burst damage meant the rest of your team got positively annihilated because we just flanked you to death and you couldn't do anything about it.

I'm sure there are going to be teams out there that can sorta make demoknight work, but I feel confident it's not going to be the norm, especially at high open and above.

Buildings aren't affected by damage ramp up, and the base damage for stickies wasn't changed, should still be the exact same amount of stickies to kill wrangled sentry.

Why doesn't Wyatt work for Valve again?

#timothetroll

The area denial with the loose-cannon is surprisingly good. On last, he would go stickies for the better area denial. Our flank was really weak seeing as it was comprised of an iron HL scout, someone who was relatively new to comp, and a roamer who hadn't played 6s before. I don't think it's going to be the norm either, but I seriously hope that it doesn't get banned because it could really be a fun and refreshing way to play 6s, not to mention that it actually is viable.

not as effective at choke spam = chokes more open = more pushing. calling "spam" a playstyle is kind of a joke.

they're just as effective if you actually hit the sticky. kritz is high risk high reward.

should be terrible close combat. was always supposed to be. that's not playstyle, that's positioning. don't put yourself in a spot to take a close range 1v1.

mids aren't a joke, 2-3 good stickies just no longer insta-win.

like i said before, playstyle wise the only thing that has to change is demos have to play smarter and position themselves better. mechanically he still operates identically. aim better.

i've kept it pretty civil in all of my posts but you saying that demo lost the ability to choke spam and in the same post saying that losing that ability doesn't promote aggressive/faster play makes me think you're not very bright.

I can't not conga.

welp, im fucked

The return of fragga?

In Yurope we play a more Demo-centric style, it changes how you approach the game as you do less damage per second meaning if you try the same things as before, less damage = less success. It isn't rocket science really. A lot of smaller things will change, small things you work into your game over years of playing, so some of those things like how you would fight a scout with good movement change because the scout won't take 110 damage from your close range sticky, he'll take say 50-60 so he can confidently run at you and take the damage to land the meatshot...that's a specific example but there will be a few changes.

As for HL Demoman, even more stuff changes. Can adjust, that is what will make a good player but you know...takes time.

Agreed, makes choke pushes less uber reliant but it's still the core of the class, area denial, you are directly nerfing the core attribute of the class, that's not doing any good. There would be plenty of ways to go about it instead of this nerf.

Sorry but no, Kritz is kind of a joke now if its a surprise/close kritz, a kritz sticky on the medic can deal as much as 120 dmg now, what a joke, it won't even 1-hit a unbuffed scout. It doesn't sound much like high risk high reward to me, more like high risk, no reward. It's a huge nerf to the kritz indirectly, so this does indeed make the game more stale if kritz are out of the picture or at least nerfed as bad as this.

Exactly, demo was never intended to be a close combat class, it's actually its main weakness, why make it even weaker in that aspect? I simply dont understand. The positioning argument is cool and all but that can be said about pretty much anything if you think about it, why should the soldier have gunboats? They are a crutch to bad positioning and allow to get out of bad situations easily, lets not go that way please, thats a horrible argument, and its one of the arguments high level players used to say in europe before the unlocks were introduced.

For the demo they are. Demo has always been known as a powerclass, a gamechanger, mid was heavily reliant on the demo doing its work. This nerf really does taste very bitter in that aspect. You are left with a 175 hp class with less mobility (or at least more costly mobility) than the other classes on the field which now deals very little damage compared to the other damage dealing classes. Also the instant det stickies were the core of demoman mids, 1 good sticky, or 2 good stickies on the scouts, or demo, etc, could really influence a lot the course of the mid and IMO that's how it should be, the class is limited to 1 for a reason. With the current status you feel so powerless you might as well have 2 demos on the field, in other words, irrelevant impact compared to before, which is why demo limit is 1.

That argument is really flawed. You are basically saying a nerf which makes a class deal like 30% less damage, be even less reliable on close combat and have less impact with high risk high reward plays (with kritz for example) a question of "aiming better". Thats laughable

As if choke spamming was the only thing preventing a more agressive or faster playstyle in a game where you have ubercharges which make a player invulnerable for seconds, you have overheals which give a class 150% of its health, you have sentries, 450 hp buffed heavies, you have wrangler, etc etc... Choke spamming isn't as bad as you make it out to be, especially when it's the whole point and core of this class, area denial.

Take of that what you will, I think I explained my points pretty well, lets not get to personal insults.

Seems like every update people want to see this game evolve into dm. There are people that get to where they are based on their teamplay, and not so much on their dm. Sure it will be a lot more fun to watch, but teams with good strategy but worse dm will find it a lot harder than it already is to tackle the dm gods seeded above them.

What made tf2 tf2, for me anyway, was how important both the demoman and medic were. Demoman doing a shitload of damage and keeping people out of chokes long enough for a medic to build an uber and turn it into a push. As a roamer, picking a demo, or even just distracting him for awhile meant a lot.

I predict lots and lots of forced team fights through chokes which means that the medic becomes a less important pick too; you want to be shooting the damage dealers or else your team will just crumble without your damage output and that medics will probably not have uber before or after the fight. Seems like the optimal way to roam now is to just walk around with your 300hp and shoot some floors with your buddies. Which is how most of them play now anyways.

I really enjoyed the dave_ac, jukebox, and other crazy roamers doing their thing like say lunacide or shootist, but roaming like that seems more or less like a waste, more than it was before anyways, now that there isn't a class to stop the enemy team from advancing once you do your thing.

Iunno, seems very 1-dimensional to me, but I'm also biased now that my class has kinda shifted more to a secondary pocket role and that at least half of my tf2 hours were spent on jumping. Waste of time; should've mained scout.

If you play demo and you are bad with pipes then you are a bad demoman

-edit

don't get me wrong: a soldier should be good at using both rockets and shotgun, a scout should be good at hitting shots with scattergun and pistol...
Demoman's pipes are faster than stickies and you can do more damage with them. Stickies are good for area control, spamming and picking players(with crits).
The only reall downside that i see from this update is the fact that long-range clutch krit stickies are pretty much removed, and these offered game changing outcomes and plays.

Pipes still are your main weapon and in my opinion should be used as your main weapon. You can do more damage with them than if you use stickies as your main weapon.
Yes it will take a lot of change and adaption for people who are used to rely only on their stickies and simply spamming pipes in choke areas to be successfull with low dmg stickies... but it will come.

why can't we conga while parachuting

shit update 4/10

http://images.search.yahoo.com/images/view;_ylt=AwrTcX2XLaNTTn4AbZCJzbkF;_ylu=X3oDMTIyMzgydnZjBHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDaW1nBG9pZANmNTJhZTM1OTAxODQ3MTZlNmVjMGZkMzM1OTMyZTQzYgRncG9zAzIEaXQDYmluZw--?back=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.search.yahoo.com%2Fsearch%2Fimages%3Fp%3Dtf2%2Bpipe%2Blauncher%26fr%3Diphone%26fr2%3Dpiv-web%26tab%3Dorganic%26ri%3D2&w=512&h=512&imgurl=www.tfportal.de%2Fgfx%2Fcontent%2Ftf2%2Fweapons%2Fgrenadelauncher_large.png&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fdemomanguide.blogspot.com%2F&size=62.1KB&name=you+can+also+use+your+%3Cb%3Epipe+%3C%2Fb%3Eas+intelligent&p=tf2+pipe+launcher&oid=f52ae3590184716e6ec0fd335932e43b&fr2=piv-web&fr=iphone&tt=you+can+also+use+your+%3Cb%3Epipe+%3C%2Fb%3Eas+intelligent&b=0&ni=21&no=2&ts=&tab=organic&sigr=111g9g2n1&sigb=137q2m6pj&sigi=1211uib0i&sigt=11grtcc1u&sign=11grtcc1u&.crumb=PYX8GSQC.En&fr=iphone&fr2=piv-web

http://i.imgur.com/zGm3P.jpg

dont u play csgo now

Dude no please i cant play any other class but demo

my life is fucking over

I know everyone is talking about demo, but with the new rocket launcher, if you hit perfect bunnyhops doesn't it still count you as explosive jumping? So you could shoot eight rockets really quickly and just be hopping around.

fucking stickies, fucking acceptable

I got that reference remedy