Have you actually read the thread? This mod halves the knockback of airblast and preserves forward momentum. Pyros wouldn't be able to stall Ubers for more than a second without getting obliterated, which makes it basically 100% outclassed at everything.

I'm reading these posts, and while I understand and can appreciate that you are trying to systematically (via hypothetical mathematics/theorycrafting AND actual gameplay testing) improve the class, I think you're all missing one important factor: aside from the airblast mechanics, the class isn't broken. You say things like, "pyro is crappy at mid and long range! we need to fix this!" This idea in and of itself is flawed. There are 9 classes in TF2. The entire purpose of a class-based system is that each class has both positive and negative characteristics. TF2 was developed with very well-defined roles for each class.

The scout is great at close range combat, decent at midrange combat, and very very mediocre at long range combat. The tradeoff is that he has low health. Through item additions, the scout has received weapons that make him phenomenal at close-range combat (FaN) at the cost of mobility. On the other hand, he's received things like the shortstop which can shift him into a dangerous midrange class while lowering his point blank effectiveness.

The soldier is great at close and mid range, but is laughable at long range due to the slow travel speed of rockets. Again, through item additions, he's able to shift his role to ultra high mobility (gunboats), no splash with high damage (direct hit), low-power tank (black box), and others.

The sniper is great at long range combat, but terrible at close range combat. He was given the huntsman as a way to change that and become great at close range combat while mid and long range combat suffer.

The demo is incredible at medium range combat, good at long range combat, but very spotty at close ranges. Unlike most of the other classes, he doesn't really have a great close range loadout (unless you count loch n caber, which are both banned in sixes anyway).

The pyro is great at close range combat. His midrange combat is OK, and his long range combat is nonexistent with the stock loadout. While I agree that the pyro in TF2 on release day was very weak, he's received no fewer than a dozen buffs via mechanics changes. Valve wanted to boost the pyro's ability to fight at range and fend off snipers, so they gave him a long range flamethrower (flare gun). They wanted to give him a way to set people on fire at a range without having to aim, thus they introduced the detonator. They wanted more close-range burst damage, so they gave melee weapons guaranteed criticals. They wanted to further influence people to play an ambush style, so they added the backburner. The upgrades are virtually countless.

The point is, it's nonsensical to attempt to make the pyro's weapons viable at all ranges. The purpose of his class is not "to be effective at all ranges". If your goal is to make him effective at all ranges, you may as well do the same for the 8 other classes in the game (of which, zero are excellent at all ranges, and few are as effective at both close and long range combat as the current iteration of the pyro).

The pyro doesn't need to have damage buffs. You can already hit someone for 130 damage by tapping someone with flame at close range, airblasting them, then switching to flaregun and shooting them before they land from their always-exactly-the-same arc. If that doesn't work, you can get free mini-crit damage on them with a melee weapon instead of the flare gun. The pyro is despised because it takes nothing other than 'decent' reaction time to reflect projectiles on reaction, and for the laughable effort put into reflecting, the pyro is rewarded with critical damage while also taking no (or very little) damage in most cases. The pyro is also despised because airblast mechanics are completely ridiculous and it takes zero skill to block half of an ubercharge by doing absolutely nothing other than pressing right click.

The very bottom line: pyro is a utility class. It is not intended to be a high damage-output class. It's there to aid you in certain instances and to be annoying in all others. You can kill a scout by setting him on fire with a single tick of ammo, then hitting him with a flare. You can guarantee a mini-crit hit for 101 (I think 101) by swiping your axetinguisher on someone you've set on fire. They can't get away because you can simply airblast them into oblivion. You can reflect rockets that are fired at you both intentionally and accidentally with very loose timing and even looser aiming. You can reflect rockets that were shot from behind you, toward the rear of your model, without even seeing that rocket just by right-clicking while still facing 180 degrees away from the rocket while it's still traveling toward your behind. I'd say the class performs the task for which it was intended quite nicely.

Even if you fix the airblast mechanic and you alter the pyro's damage, it's still not going to become a primary class in sixes because there's simply not enough chaos occurring to make its lack of mobility effective at all times.

Pyro is viable in highlander for several reasons:
-it's a required class
-it's a direct counter to other classes that are always in play (spy, sniper)
-there is enough chaos in highlander that the pyro can frequently and reliably get close to/behind unsuspecting enemies
-9 targets means flares fired randomly will almost always ignite someone
-ubers that are typically led by heavy/demo combos are easily thwarted by right-clicking
-there's only one scout to deal with, so the chances of the pyro getting destroyed by scouts is much lower
-the overall mobility in highlander is much lower than in sixes

None of these points really apply to sixes other than the ability to thwart ubers, which, as expected, is where pyro is most frequently used in sixes.

If valve gave the pyro new weapons that gave it the mobility potential of a scout, soldier, or demo, you'd see it become a viable main class, but until then, it won't happen in the upper divisions.

aaaand that's enough dissertation for now. :-|

That's a good thing. It's stupid that a pyro can block ubers in the first place. Maybe we need to implement this. Make it risk reward... Not the opposite which it is now.

I should mention that I do understand the point of this thread is to talk about a mod used to gather information and test. I just think that no matter how much testing you do, the likelihood of valve adopting your changes into the game hovers somewhere between 'unlikely' and 'not happening' and the likelihood of ESEA adopting a mod like this is also very low. As a result, anything you learn here is regrettably mostly useless in the eyes of competitive sixes.

http://puu.sh/bBZW1/120b572b7d.jpg

Thanks cole

pyro and enjoyable don't belong in the same sentence

@smakers

The Flare Gun is incredibly unreliable at long range because you have to hit them twice in a row with a projectile that has no splash, and if they leave and get a health kit after the first one, you have to hit them twice again. The Detonator is very good at inflicting afterburn, which does 6 DPS, which is slightly better than poking someone across the map for 3 damage with the shotgun. The Axtinguisher does 88 damage, which means it's basically always better to just keep your flamethrower out (110 DPS vs the degreaser's 139, and it's far more unreliable). And nobody uses primaries that aren't the Degreaser, the Backburner is gimmicky and outclassed.

In close range, it's not really significantly better than Scout or Soldier? Degreaser does 139 theoretical DPS, which is basically impossible to hit because the particle cone is wide. Rockets do 140, Scattergun does 164, Shotgun does 144. It's easier to hit your targets with the Flamethrower, but leading a significant portion of the particles is more unreliable than aiming hitscan or shooting the floor. Also, in CQC reflects are heavily based on psychology and luck, instead of being able to react to them by sight.

If you consider Degreaser flaming and switching every 2.02 seconds to the Flare Gun, that's 152 DPS (degreaser switch speed is .23 seconds, so 90 damage in .46 seconds + (the remaining 2.02-.46 seconds times 139 dps), all over 2.02 seconds). You might as well be playing Scout, since it's around 100x more versatile. Also, the Flare Gun wouldn't be as easy to hit with in CQC if airblast preserved momentum.

Nobody wants to make the Pyro good at long range. The problem, or at least my problem, is that the Pyro is unique among CQC-focused classes in that he doesn't have an effective way of GETTING into close range. Scout runs fast and has double jump, Soldier rocket jumps, Spy has cloak. Pyro has detjumps I guess but they're awful and it usually still involves just standing on a prop and waiting for someone to walk into you. Outside of flamethrower range Pyro is just a fat Engineer without the buildings, and that's the best-case scenario (if you run a Shotgun). If you assume that every Flare Gun is a crit (which is blatantly false), the Flare Gun does 44.5 DPS at mid-range if you hit every shot, which is another big "if".

If uberstalling was removed, then nobody would play Pyro unless they were forced to (like in HL). The class would be a utility class without enough utility to bother with. And that's why, if airblast were changed to not be annoying (and not that useful), I'd want it to be better at fighting stuff. Not full-time good. Basically just to reflect stuff on spam-heavy maps during stalemates without being absolutely useless against Scouts.

also since when does pyro counter sniper lol

Welp better just remove the class then.

Why would you say that? What annoys you, other than uberstalling (which would become worthless), movement control in general (which would also be pretty worthless), and an easy-to-be-mediocre with primary (which a tighter particle cone would fix)? The Axtinguisher doesn't even oneshot anything anymore.

What reward?

Really? being able able to block uber from doing anything by mashing m2.

It is enjoyable to kill others as pyro, and listen to them complain about your class.

Either stuffing half an uber by holding M2, or stuffing an entire uber by predicting and reflecting rockets. That's a pretty damn good reward if you ask me.

everything u mentioned requires aim and thought
pyro doesnt

The fundamental problem about pyro is that the class skill floor is incredibly low. By buffing flame damage you are decreasing even more the skill floor of the class, are you sure that's a logical path to take?

People have shown that you can sucessfully play pyro using your feet, or even a wheel, isn't that enough proof that the class is already dumbed down to a whole other level?

It's something that can't really be solved without disturbing the whole class balance of tf2, and while I feel removing airblast all together is not fair for the class either, maybe it could be reworked, but in no way it needs a buff of any kind, the class already serves its purpose perfectly. And its damn annoying at that.

@pine_beetle/kairu remember that in this hypothetical scenario, the pyro wouldn't be able to stall ubers. Ubered Scouts still maul you, your airblast is worse at screwing up a pocket Soldier's shotgun aim, and they can probably just walk past you and get on your med anyway. I think reflects are really powerful but I really don't think I'd switch off Scout or Soldier for that alone.

Well, I would. But not many sane people would.

It is MUCH easier to get close to maximum DPS with Scout or Soldier than Pyro. Hitscan is reliable. Splashing the floor is reliable. Tracking a wide cone of short-ranged invisible particles, the only way you'd conceivably get close to the theoretical maximum is at point-blank, if they don't strafe, which never happens.

Also there's a range thing. Pyro has to get into close range without help from faster speed or advanced movement. Scout and Soldier are worth something at mid-range. Pyro isn't.

And remember that flares aren't mindless to hit in this hypothetical scenario because airblast preserves momentum.

Are we talking about shit tier valve servers full of free to play players? Engineer literally plays itself. Medic is also a ridiculously easy class, just click on your Heavy once and follow him. Heavy is easier than Pyro too, you get more health and your primary is more powerful, easier to aim, and has better range. And shooting the floor as Soldier is really, really easy in pubs. Stupid pubbers can W+M1 as Pyro around as easy as Heavy or Soldier, but unlike them, you actually need a tiny, tiny bit of gamesense if you want to get into CQC without being spotted.

I'm pretty sure any of those classes, bar maybe Heavy, would be far easier to play with a wheel or feet than Pyro. Especially with two pocket Medics. Against trackpad players who don't know what wasd keys are.

What we are saying which you don't seem to understand is that a pyro running front of ubered people is a really stupid thing to do and you should instantly lose. Instead you can can just hold m2 and push them into a wall. Making it so that an unubered pyro dies when walking into ubered players is a good thing.

i'm pretty sure i never said uberstalling was a good thing

Should read the whole context of what we're saying. The fact that pyro can jump in front of an uber in current TF2 and completely nullify it is incredibly strong, extremely annoying and incredibly easy. You are more than likely going to die, but more than definitely going to get good value out of your death.

I feel this is already a thing. If you go push with an uber, and the pyro stuffs the entire thing, then that's on you. Is it too easy? Yes, I do agree with that, but you're exaggerating.

You aren't just going to be pushed into a wall and do nothing. If he spams m2, you time your rockets or use shotgun, if he goes for rockets, you can shotgun or you can be every pyro's nightmare, wait for the reflect, and then fire a rocket immediately after.

Okay, so uberstalling as Pyro is too easy right now?

I agree with you and I agree with pine beetle. I agree it should be nerfed.

I am speaking in the context of the potential changes that this mod is about, which this thread was created about. And in this mod, uberstalling isn't viable because forward momentum is preserved.

But yeah, I do understand you. And I do agree with you. So let's talk about stuff we actually disagree about (which is...nothing in your case?)

Sounds like salty soldier main.
get better, pyro sucks.

It would be nice if you actually made a constructive and useful post that actually helped the discussion.

Making pyro more enjoyable for everyone who isn't the pyro would require the biggest nerf in the game's history, and Valve wouldn't do that.

They nerfed sticky bombs.

remove airblast, remove crit flares, give pyro a double tap stafe jump like in UT so you can rip around and burn shit.

The pyro demographic is probably a lot higher than the demo demographic, plus the required nerf that would be applied to the pyro class would be on a larger scale than, in comparison, simply nerfing stickies.

Just got back from work, and I see all this going on. Wow, y'all are passionate about this, eh. Thanks for showing up, Cole, by the way.

Uh, I was able to get the server running again; so if you've got some friends and some time, try it out:
steam://connect/74.91.116.128:27015

Gonna have to eat my words on this one. Honestly, I was more paying attention to the footcam than anything. I concede that point. ^^;

Well there's probably a reason for that, maybe because many pubbers have found the pyro to be one of the easiest classes with it's critshots and airblasting, and that gives the kills that many pubbers want. But It wouldn't be bad to nerf Pyro, also I wouldn't say it's the biggest nerf in TF2's history, I still say the demoman one was a big one that affected the stock weapon. Back then before the time of degreaser, Flare Gun didn't do critshots, and people effectively used the Flamethrower+Axtinguisher fairly well.

There's a few very old video's like Bloodsire's and TMP's that include frags where they didn't need to rely on what pyro has now and was able to make do with it, and somewhat showed a level of skill. I feel that degreaser is just a training wheel flamethrower that people use just for the faster switch to ensure that they get their critshots in with the enemy barely having a good enough reaction time to stop it most of the time. Degreaser doesn't have much of a con also since the beginning, it would definitely be fair to get rid of airblasting since players like to focus on their "fast crit flare shotting" when choosing the weapon.

There's more than one class other than Pyro in the end. Too many pubbers likely rely on it for their "fun and frags" and so much of the pyro population is probably based off that. There's more than one way in TF2.

EDIT: Also I think reworking the range and how airblast works is a fair balance. Maybe not like a forcefield, but a more closed in area so pyros would need to be a bit more exact.

The only thing that definitely needs to be nerfed is the airblast mechanic. Flare crits are debatable. There's absolutely no reason for a class to be based around crits, for one. It's perfectly acceptable to build the class as an ambush class (eg backburner pyros if the backburner didn't blow dick) or as a statistically in between in-your-face class, but it's not fine, much less perfectly fine, to do so and add an abundance of any type of crit damage to it.

Here's what you do. Take the flare gun and make it mini-crit, at most, on burning targets. Unless that's what it does already and isn't a full crit like I'm thinking. I don't remember. If it is mini-crit damage, keep it that way, it's fine. If not, fix that.

Then you want to take the airblast mechanic and remove the idea of having crit damage when hitting reflected projectiles, except possibly on arrows as those are infinitely harder to connect. An optional step would be one of two other possibilities. You either lower the airblast range or you double the ammo cost. That's all that's really needed. The rest is fine, considering the degreaser meta isn't based around any other part of the weapon.

Another possibility would be ignoring those flamethrower nerfs, but requiring you to charge up your airblast. You don't lose walk speed or anything, but you need to charge your airblast before you can use it. Think about The Classic and how it works. That's what I mean. Low charge = low reflect range, low ammo cost and lower added crit damage (if crit damage is still a thing). Max charge = what we have now, unless changed.

You know, it's actually really funny how much a class needs to be fixed/changed when you can come up with a bunch of nerfs for it and not waste your time coming up with them.

How to make a pyro movie enjoyable for everyone?
-Don't make one.
Just don't.