I am aware of the issue of some certain newbies being slightly more skilled than the general newbie mix competition, and plan to talk to them before the next mix.

if this isn't your issue, please link me to the logs of the games stacked in question. if you have any specific problem with a specific player let me know and I will talk to them.

otherwise, don't claim that I or anyone else isn't "administrating".

I have finals in a few days and with Christmas break coming up a lot of people will be out of town. Don't be too hard on the community until after the break. <3

Oh and AloSec feel free to spam me a few times on Friday nights if I'm online.

/sigh.... Well I must say I'm not surprised at all, thank you to all the people that saw this and are actually trying to change the out come, it means a lot. Also a big thanks for nothing to all the players that this was primarily aimed at for responding or even caring in some way.... Not that I am really surprised or was really expecting any of you to say shit in the first place it would have been nice to at lease see some effort from one person. Anyways we do have enough support at the moment to keep them running and I guess see you on another 6-8 months when this thread happens again because we do not have enough top end support. That being said love goes out to everyone that us reaching out it means a lot and it nice to at least see some people care <3

Is this only for NA or?

Well fraac is putting the NLPG group back together, though on a smaller scale, but it's still a thing. Pretty sure I saw another thread on ETF2L about some sort of newbie mixes.

Also a note; please don't plus frag unless you are actually going to do something its just empty and useless support and god knows we have enough of that

yep! this is only for NA players. I believe the European equivalent of newbie mixes can be found here - http://steamcommunity.com/groups/nlpg2

#33 if you really want a response, I'll give you one. mentoring is usually a waste of time for the mentor. some things cannot be taught easily, and even with mentoring the Mentee needs to invest a lot of time and effort to learn and practice those concepts. in most cases the mentor usually gives their time and energy and gets nothing in return. while this can be seen as community service, you're not exactly helping the homeless so you better be pretty passionate about TF2.

I recently read in the Valve employee handbook a line that I think is pretty relevant: "FYI, we usually don't do any formalized employee "development" (course work, mentor assignment), because for senior people it's mostly not effective. We believe that high-performance people are generally self-improving." in my experience, the people who want mentoring are lazy. they don't watch demos and they want someone to tell them the answer to their problem that they're having. the people who want to improve typically know what it takes to get better (hop in a DM server, watch pro players, watch your own demos, work with your teammates). if they really had a burning question they could probably pm any pro player and get their question answered. worst case scenario shoot me a pm and I'd answer it.

most people that want to receive your advice are looking for a simple answer to a more complicated question. there's few things in this game that are like that. for example, push on 6v4 is generally pretty reliable advice. however, if you say "learn/practice your 1v1s", it gets more complicated. a lot of people don't understand the nuances, and the vast majority of new players won't put the necessary effort in to really flush that concept out -- it takes a lot of effort to make it far in any game.

the concepts need to be understood by each and every player as well. being in a situation where you teach the concepts over and over again can get repetitive and it feels like work. nobody wants to do work on their spare Friday nights. they want to get out there and have fun, or if they're going to work they want to get paid for it. newbie mixes does not pay coaches very well, nor would I expect them to. however, many coaches play the game themselves and would rather spend the time improving their own game than helping someone else to improve theirs. in other words, helping newbies can get repetitive and boring. there are paid coaching websites that exist for various games, and a some streamers advertise coaching on their pages, but the masses typically aren't willing to pay for it.

lastly, newbie mixes in General can feel particularly unrewarding. often times you'll help random players that you'll never see ever again with little to no recognition or thanks. recognition can be a big motivator and I don't feel that it's being done properly for the coaches that are putting the time in and showing up to these things.

I personally ran one of these mentoring groups and coached a ton of people before realizing that it's better to make videos. you end up repeating yourself way less, and the videos are online forever. youmustmike and Marxist I feel understood this concept and tried to make educational videos for the community. while not everyone has the resources or talent to create educational videos, I do feel that this is a much more worthwhile endeavor.

in my opinion, stop running newbie mixes. if it were up to me I probably wouldn't even have a mentoring subforum cause hardly any mentors ever post there, but you do need a place to collect mentoring requests. each person who has run newbie mixes has learned this lesson the hard way, but at least you're doing something noble. I know that what I'm saying isn't popular and that is why I held my tongue but it's tough to see you like this so I figured I'd give you my two cents. if you decide to continue running them then best of luck but i really don't see this going anywhere.

I had typed up a pretty long response before I accidentally left the page, so I'll just try to get to the gist of it.

Slin, I agree that mentoring can be unrewarding. However, the newbie mixes allow players to not only get feedback from coaches, but make connections with them and other newbies. They are meant to introduce players to 6s, and provide a place for more experienced people to play. I've made friends that I enjoy playing with from newbie mixes, and I've gotten to know some of the coaches too. It's basically an open pug group and I think it's important to keep it so newer players can have a place to meet new people and play pugs. Since the community is so small connections are quite important. Honestly the newbie mixes are more about hanging out and playing with other people; the learning aspect is just an added bonus. People who enjoy them will stick around and come back. So through the mixes people will get the chance to try out 6v6 if they're new, and continue playing it if they enjoy it. Basically, newbie mixes are better for introducing the game to newer players than tf2center, and are a way for people to play pugs that aren't as high skill as tf2mix.

+1 to all of that. Newbie mixes are great not because you teach newer players something they could not have learned by watching youtube videos, they're nice because you have someone you can actually communicate with and it's a much more personal experience. I know I got into newbie mixes after I played one where you coached me and it was pretty cool to see a name I recognized from eXtv casts teaching me how to play TF2.

if this is the case, then you likely can run the pugs without mentors. it would become like any other in-house pug group except it would have an enticing name. any players of relative skill level could participate, and UGC players could fill the mentor void to help the brand new players. I was under the impression that the leaders of newbie mixes wanted pro/semi-pro players to take part.

Being a condescending ass isn't going to get players to coach. Many people barely have enough time to play the game as it is, let alone spending their Friday nights trying to teach other people how to play.

Yes, the pugs can be run without mentors (and they have been, usually when there are not enough coaches), but the mentors still show up to provide feedback and hang out with the newer players. This means that lower level players have a chance to connect with higher level ones, which really doesn't happen much apart from newbie mixes. Sure, there will be people who just show up once, but there are also plenty of people who return every week and appreciate the coaches. SAAM basically said it already, but having someone to actually talk to, who you might look up to, will provide a better sense of interaction. Videos are totally fine but you lose the person to person connection that you would get if a coach spectates and comments on your play. You also get to know your coach on a more personal level since you can directly communicate with them. It's about the connections the players can make with one another, just as much as introducing them to competitive TF2. The lower level players should not be alienated from higher level players. Newbie mixes provides a place where they can come together.

I don't think anyone as ever seen me as qualified enough to coach, considering I've never officially played ESEA, but I've played up through plat 6's (for whatever ugc is worth) and would feel comfortable coaching if you really need the help. I'm free most Friday and Saturday nights.

If a tiny fraction of the open+ players (let's say a tenth of them, roughly 50ish people) coached in mixes, you wouldn't have to do it to a point of where it gets dull. It'd just be a thing that you do when there's nothing to do on a Friday night, maybe once every couple of months.

I personally don't understand how an invite or high IM player could invest so much time into the game and not come around for an hour every couple of months to recruit new players. Seriously, if any one of the players from any esea lan stopped by and hung out with the noobies even if it was for a few minutes in the add-up lobby, that would be such a good experience to have. The thought that players that are the best-of-the-best are excited about new players joining the scene would be a serious moral booster, but instead the mixes often turn into a "let's see what mid open player the admins can scrounge up from their friends list", and that just kinda sucks.

idunno

for reference: I do not agree with Tino_'s comments. I've received some interest from some top players in coaching (and a lot of interest from others as well), and for me that's enough to want to keep going.

to slin, I definitely hear what you're saying, but newbie mixes is not that. newbie mixes aren't a mentoring group. not totally, anyways. newbie mixes is here to provide an outlet for interested players to pick up competitive. we don't claim to teach anything past the basics of 6v6 and give novice players a place to practice before joining a team. dashner has it right:

however,

you have a very valid point here, and this is something that's bothered me for a while. do you have any suggestions on how to "change up" coaching? I usually let coaches pick between coaching from spec or on medic, but I know that's not enough

I completely agree with everything you have said up until this point. newbie mixes is not a pug group for inexperienced players. newbie mixes are hosted to provide a place for interested players to try playing 6v6 in a fun, non-toxic environment. not for inexperienced players to chill out and play 6v6. this group is much much more suited for that.

that said, if you are new, come chill with us and learn. but do not view newbie mixes as a place to zone out and game. if you sign up to play in newbie mixes, be interested in playing and learning.

I'm a bit confused in your messaging #47. what is the difference between an interested player and an inexperienced one? what about the difference between a newbie and an inexperienced player? is "newbie mix" a bit of a misnomer because the goals of the group has changed with the changes in leadership?

what is the approximate skill range that you're looking for?

the difference, to me, is the player's intention

newbie mixes is for:
- any (likely new) low level player (UGC iron to about silver)
- any person new to competitive TF2 (ie, a gold HL player will not find much for him in mixes)

newbie mixes is not for:
- low level players wanting to hang out with friends and PUG TF2*
- low/mid open players wanting to learn a different class

* I think this is where the confusion is. I'm all for any low level player to come game as long as they don't view mixes as a place to chill out and beat on some people who are worse than them. if low level already-competitive players are going to come play newbie mixes I wanna make sure they are there for the right reasons

I can't really speak for anything else in this thread, but I do think I can offer input on this point specifically. I think that anyone who has a firm grasp of the competitive format can coach a newbie mix, and I think others have said this as well.

That said, I think the reason that there is a big interest in getting players from the top levels of the game to show up for these events is because those players are known and recognized. They are the names from casts and youtube videos that sparked the interest of the newbies who are coming out to the newbie mixes.

It would be like having a pro football player show up at a clinic for high school players. The chance to learn from someone you both admire and try to emulate can do an incredible amount of work towards getting new players invested in improving on their own. That idea that they got a chance to play with what they consider to be greatness can't have a value placed on it.

I can remember pubbing against players like polk, milo, and others. Or having scrims with or against people like ruwin, indust, memphis von, you, and plenty of others. Names that I remember watching in matches and casts that made me want to pursue competitive play. Players who's styles I have worked to emulate and used to guide my own improvement.

I doubt any of those players even remember me from the servers/games, but those experiences, more than anything else, fuel a new players drive to improve and grow on their own.

Pro and semi-pro players don't have to be a part of every mix, and I completely agree that teaching the same things again and again can be frustrating, and tiring. So don't show up to all of them. But show up to some, and more importantly, let the people who are running the mixes know when you are going to show up so they can advertise that some.

You would be surprised how many new players you will inspire to become long term members of this community without ever knowing it just by giving them a chance to play, even for just a bit, with you.

And if you are looking for some kind of return, those players are likely going to be the ones who follow you on twitch, and send in donations and things like that. You may not feel like your presence has a lasting impact, but I can promise you, that for every aspiring TF2 player, seeing names like Mr Slin, and any other player who is active in Invite, on Twitch or Youtube, or just in the community in general, it is an experience they are not going to forget.