no iron bomber :(

gross

Game changing additions

fuck how am i gonna counter engineer

unban the loch

Liberty Launcher was already unbanned.

no one is going to use the goddamn liberty fucking launcherrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

dis is bad

best weapon in the game

Please no

I didn't see anyone actually posting a serious opinion on this topic, and didn't see ESEA changing it's whitelist since S15 so I thought i'd give a shot in expressing my thoughts and sharing it with you guys.

I know this thread is not really serious and not really meaningful in anyway but i'm going to try and to give a serious opinion on this whitelist issue since there are so many weapons in the ESEA whitelist that even ETF2L allows that really don't change the meta too much and can be viable alternatives.

I also know how much you guys are tired of Euros coming here and talking 'bout ESEA and comparing it to ETF2L but i'm not here to do that, i'm merely here to give my opinion on some unlocks that should be considered.

ESEA whitelist vs ETF2L whitelist (which is going to be used in s20 most likely)

Scout: Both whitelist are the same.

Soldier: On this one ETF2L is a bit ahead with the primaries however behind with the secondary and melee weapons, so let's take a look at the primaries that are should be considered to be allowed in ESEA:

Cow Mangler and Liberty Launcher - both unlocks are being tested for about the past 2 weeks on TF2Pickup and both are quite interesting unlocks and can freshen up the whitelist however they won't see too much use in the regular season I believe.
The Cow Mangler's infine ammo and 5 4 shots seem to be on par with the slower reload (edit: only on the first reloaded shot) which can really hurt the soldier so it might be considered to do so.
The Liberty Launcher's less damage can get really frustrating however with it's faster projectile speed it seems to balance out the weapon and might be a viable option alternative.

Pyro: ETF2L is behind on this one with banning the Manmelter for some reason(?), so nothing much to be considered here.

Demoman: ETF2L is way behind on this one, so ESEA is good for this one, I don't know too much about the new Demoman unlocks, which both have downsides and upsides and can both be used wisely, however nothing much have been seen from these two, I'd love to see them tested somewhere so we can know a little bout them.

Quickiebomb Launcher - 2 less stickies in clip, can destroy stickies (broken, it can't for some reason), detonates faster however the sticky disappears after 2 seconds so that would mean no sticky traps, also has faster charge speed. Seems balanced however I'm not sure how many demos would give up sticky traps for this, could be worth a shot.

Iron Bomber - this one seems pretty weak and not overpowered at all or would be too gimicky to play against so I think this deserves a shot and maybe considered.

Heavy: ETF2L seems to be ahead in the primaries and secondaries however behind in the melee weapons, ESEA should consider the following weapons to be unbanned:

Huo-Long Heater and Tomislav - both weapons are somewhat weaker and better than the stock minigun which seems to be the only thing allowed for some reason, both can be used in some situations and none are overpowered or should be considered broken, both played very well in the last season of ETF2L and should be considered as viable options.

Dalokhs Bar - was banned for some reason after S14 but it shouldn't have since it gives a small buff to the heavy that doesn't change too much of the way the heavy plays, and also helps heavy survive just a bit more in defending. Allowed in ETF2L and was played fine in last season.

Engineer: When I took a look at the Whitelist ESEA has for the class I was shocked of it's limitations of just 1 allowed weapon(!), which ETF2L is way ahead on this one and has shown that the Engie deserves some love and has some unlocks that aren't totally overpowered or a straight up upgrade and ESEA should consider unbanning:

Frontier Jutice and Widowmaker - Both unlocks are allowed in ETF2L and don't change the meta too much, but actually are viable options for the primary shotgun.
The Widowmaker is a risky weapon that rewards hitting your shots, so if you miss them you'll be left without a primary weapon and without metal which seems very balanced to me, and also played fine in the last ETF2L season.
The Frontier Justice is quite risky aswell and isn't a straight upgrade or overpowered, it rewards getting kills with your sentry, however it will be vary rarely happen that you would get a kill, destroy your gun and still play Engie and get a crit to be actually used, so the weapon deserves to be unbanned or atleast considered.

Southern Hospitality and Eureka Effect - Only the Southern Hospitality is allowed in ETF2L but the Eureka effect should be totally considered to be allowed in both leagues, and seem like viable alternatives to the Engie's available melee weapons.
Southern Hospitality was banned after S14 for some reason, however it shouldn't have been banned because it is not an overpowered weapon nor is broken in any way, played well in the last ETF2L season aswell, so it should be considered back in.
Eurkea Effect was never considered however after the recent nerf it seems really underpowered and can be used to make some interesting plays with the new mechanic it got, doesn't seem overpowered nor broken therefore should be considered to be unbanned.

Medic: ESEA is ahead of ETF2L on this one, and it seems great.

Sniper: ESEA is ahead of ETF2L on this one aswell, and it seems great.

Spy: ESEA is ahead on this one aswell, and it seems great.

That's about it, the ESEA whielist didn't change at all since S15 according to Whitelist.tf so it seems like it could use to freshen up a bit, the whitelist won't harm itself by unbanning some weapons that don't really deserve to be banned.

Hopefully we will see the best league in TF2 keep on going and going strong.

Widowmaker isn't really overpowered in most situations because you usually don't keep your engie out after the sentry goes down. But in a situation where you need to keep your engie in the field because you don't have time to swap, it's pretty much a straight upgrade in most hands. It still has 6 shots (worth of metal). You only need to hit 30 damage to pay for that shot. Even missing half your shots and hitting for 60 on subsequent shots will keep you at infinite ammo without reloading. Once you get to a skill level where people are good enough to hit ~1/3rd of their shots, it is just crazy good.

I agree with your other points though. Cow mangler is questionable. The slower reload is only on the first rocket. If you reload multiple, then that 'downside' is less effected. Would be worse in an extended firefight, but better in more spammy scenarios. Maybe just don't run it to mid then equip after?

There are a lot of items though that are banned that are just bad and wouldn't matter anyway: Eureka, Dalokohs, etc. that could probably be unbanned.

It is only the first rocket reloaded that is slower for the Cow Mangler, consecutive reloads are the same speed as the regular RL.

https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Cow_mangler
https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Rocket_launcher

The widowmaker really isn't a straight upgrade. Whenever it's considered here, there is always this argument made that "in the right hands it's unstoppable". I personally have never seen it in the right hands; every player misses a few shots and as an engineer your metal is so vital you're stumped as soon as you miss. Even if you do hit everything, the only bonus is not having to reload. It's not that big a deal - even if it Sounds great when you theorycraft, it doesn't make a jot of difference in an actual game, just makes engi slightly more fun to play aggressively.

Suppose that you're really bad at engineer. Somehow you flail your cursor all over the place, and can only deal 50 damage every 3 shots. Lets also say the enemy got uber faster than we thought and pushed while you were only at 150 metal. -2 complete whiffs, down to 90. Did 50-some damage, up to 110. Whiffed twice more, down to 50. Another solid hit, up to 70. But you're still shooting and missing, you're now out of ammo, and have to use your pistol.

That was 8 shots with someone who seemingly can't hit with their shotgun. 8 shots without reloading once. While starting 75% loaded for your fight. That makes engie pretty damn formidable on last holds in theory. I don't see why anyone would ever run non-widowmaker in a 6s last hold setting. I suppose maybe if you were at advantage and just wanted to park the bus gully-last style, it would be better to separate ammo from metal.

That said, I don't think it's going to cripple the game or anything because the widowmaker exists. I don't think engie is getting run to mid because he doesn't have to reload. All its doing is making pushing last harder. Now I'm not invite, so I'm definitely not a bastion of knowledge and experience, but pushing into a prepared last hold is tough enough as it is, without unlocking direct upgrades to some of these classes.

Pushing into last is the go to argument against a ridiculous amount of unlocks. And has been for many years.

But its the unlocks that are the problem. Not last points, 5cp, or having exactly one option for pushing (uber) in a game of defensive classes.

The new sticky launcher is so broken right now that to test it wouldn't even give a good idea of its capabilities. Not only does it not destroy enemy stickies it also only lives for 1 second before "fizzing"

Oh and I am glad liberty launcher is unbanned. If I get an easy 1v1 against a soldier in a match I will take it every time

Loose cannon lives :]

TF2 last points are all shit but 5cp is the most interesting game mode for 6s and if we can make pushing last possible by banning some unlocks that would be rarely used anyways, it's totally worth it.

you need to watch sezco then

Nobody is telling you to stop playing 5cp. I just wish valve had a designer that would seriously look at the problems this game has.

I mean, even that league of legends designer figured out that medics were a bandaid solution to a real problem in tf2.

jacky the cow mangler only has 4 shots and its weakness againts sentrys, and the un-noted decrease in reload speed makes it a complete downgrade

my bad on that one but i did mention the decrease in reload speed however

I mean the combination of all of those factors, makes it a downgrade. the only good thing with the cowmangler is trolling lobbys with the base jumper and charging up shots as you fly above everyones heads

Which is an incorrect analysis. It's not a band-aid solution, medic adds a lot of depth and strategy into the game, in how you position yourself according to your uber situation, how you play with the ubers, what you do in an uber fight, when to run kritz etc. Without medic, TF2 would just be another arena shooter.

you forget that part of the reason to run engi over heavy is you get a damage sponge while also having a slow scout.

i have played lasts with the widowmaker on process, and it's really irritating to not be able to pop into lobby to finish off a scout because i'm scared i'll miss. similarly with spamming out people on badlands last's main or right.

using the widowmaker means if your sentry is up you are discouraged from shooting anything, and once your sentry is down it doesn't give you enough of a boost where engie becomes an effective DM class. without a sentry, you're not gonna have time to empty your clip.

Sure, but then valve placed medic as the 1 solution to the problem of overly defensive classes. Which means any subsequent unlock that can potentially buff the heavy or engie (or any sort of defensive play) throws the game out of whack. And anything that makes medic stronger will add power to an already objectively overpowered class.

They painted themselves into a corner in terms of design space. And the diversity of high level play is suffering for it.

Overwatch is already fixing this problem: while supports are still necessary, almost every class has their "uber"; a big ability that helps them push and break defenses.

The extra speed is nice for the Liberty Launcher, but the main reason I'm interested in it is that you can rocket jump for 32 damage (vs 45 for stock and 18 for gunboats), which makes it easier for me to run shotgun roamer while still being able to move between points. I've tested the loadout and it isn't significantly worse than stock/shotgun at killing things even with 84 max damage rockets because directs are easier.

Nobody gives a shit about CM5K because the slower reload makes it useless.

Iron Bomber is a straight downgrade - worse rollers, no upside.

Quickiebomb Launcher seems pretty overpowered on midfights with the increased charge rate, and pretty worthless outside of that with no traps. Seems kinda polarizing, maybe wait a season before allowing it.

Huo-long Heater got stealth-nerfed with the Heavy nerf. It punishes staying revved up, and if you don't stay revved up, you lose accuracy. Also the upside isn't that good, especially since Spycicle isn't a thing in 6s.

Tomislav got stealth buffed, because silent reload means you can stay revved and keep your accuracy, and slightly faster rev time means you attain maximum accuracy / power slightly earlier. It also consumes less ammo, so if you want to hold down m1 to keep your power at maximum, you can do it for cheaper, which is nice. I think it should be allowed, because the extra rev time, which used to be huge, is now minimal, and the DPS drop is significant. It's basically a niche weapon for hiding in dumb spots as Heavy and dropping on the Medic. Which is fun!

Dalokohs Bar doesn't matter that much because it still overheals to 450. It's good for very, very slow healing and not getting 3shot on the flank I guess.

Nobody cares if the Southern Hospitality is banned. Who melees as Engie?

The Eureka Effect upgrades way too fucking slow to ever be viable, which is a shame. The reason you'd use it is to build forward bases while moving teleporters as you cap points, but it upgrades so slowly it isn't really worth it.

Seems like more HL Engies run Shotgun over Widowmaker. Even the best players miss and/or hit shots below 30and/or shoot stickies off your sentry for 0 damage and/or spycheck, and it's just simpler to keep a consistent 6 shells and 200 metal so you can repair/rebuild your sentry or plop down teles or something. Widowmaker is often used along with Gunslinger because you actually get in peoples' faces and meatshot them. This doesn't happen that often in 6s because nobody walks out of last as Engineer except me.

Getting 1shot by the Frontier Justice is really fucking annoying.

Of the unlocks listed, the only ones that aren't overpowered, irritating, or useless are Tomislav, Widowmaker, and MAYBE Dalokohs (it's fairly useless but not as useless as Shotgun Heavy). And the Liberty Launcher, but that's already unbanned so I don't have to argue about it.