Admirable

Now this was unexpected.

etf2l please stop banning high profile french players without releasing proof

to any of you that say that they can't because then cheaters will know how they will get caught:
the system should be strong enough that even people who are actively avoiding getting caught STILL get caught
it's better to let a non-blatant cheater play than to ban someone who doesn't cheat especially since tf2 only has 1 league / continent

rip azn

rip permzilla

all hail germans, all hail sonnyblack

As someone who was the Headstaff for an year in South America, I understand ETF2L. Bans based on demo reviews can be really polemic because if you release it to the community, the guy's friends will be really biased and try to find excuses for what he does. Once I reviewed a demo of someone and asked the accused guy to explain what happened in each play, he found an excuse for each one of them, but later he confessed he was really cheating (also he couldn't explain why he pressed mouse2 when playing scout every time he started shooting someone and then released it after the guy died, because he binded his trigger to mouse2 and I caught that in the demo). Also, sometimes the staff finds a way that proves someone is cheating and doesn't want to make it easy for people to counter it.

Does this mean all of azn's frag clips in the frag clip thread are lies

Yes

rip permzilla he was the best admin ever, did so much work

rip azn rofl

There is bias in everything, even if you try to limit it there will still be bias. Trying to argue that the entire public, many of whom do not know or do not even know of the player, will be more biased than an AC team of a select few, many of which I would imagine have played against the player, is an uphill battle. I don't think that the public should decide whether or not a player is banned for cheating, because many people cannot tell if someone is cheating (see CSGO hacking witch hunt), I'm saying that they should release at least a summary of their proof so that the AC team can be called out if they're not doing their job correctly. As for your last point, I had already addressed it. The method for proving a player is cheating should be foolproof, not reliant on some secret method that requires the cheaters being unaware because there will be cheaters who are aware and then the method is useless anyway.

I want to remind everyone of powah who was banned falsely, proceeded to play in NA and then return to Brazil and melt peoples faces off. I want to also remind people of quad who was falsely banned and although it wasn't by an AC team, it was by people in a similar position with similar resources. Finally, I want to remind everyone that before b4nny attended ESEA LAN for the first time, there was a decent population of people who thought he used wall hacks and he obviously doesn't.

I'd like to repeat something I said in my first post again, it is better to have a non-blatant hacker player, than to have an innocent player be banned from the only league they could play.

If someone has something to say to what I've said or stronger proof in the other direction, I would love to hear your reasoning.

No method is perfect. When I was in the staff, I didn't even liked the idea to use demos as the only proof to ban someone. If I got some weird demos, I'd try to investigate the guy to find more evidences.

Those evidences might be a close friend/teammate that got a confession, or proof that that guy blatantly cheating in a secondary account in a pug (to find this kind of thing in our scene is easier because the scene is small and everyone knows everyone) is the accused guy through servers logs. Or even console commands that let you see how many ticks the guy uses to press and release mouse1 everytime he shoots to see if he doesn't have "inhuman reactions". Those are kinds of things the staff can't release to the public. As small scenes, both the FBTF and the ETF2L don't have enough resources to create and manage an anti-cheat software so the methods become foolproofs as you sugest.

But, as I said before, no method is perfect. The staff CAN make mistakes (as you said, I believe Powah's ban was a mistake by the staff at the time), but if they release the demos for the community to judge, they would be bombarded by the vocal people that will defend the accused no matter what (and the staff will only be able to ban someone due to VAC Bans and confessions). You guys already trust in the staff when you leave to them to be as unbiased as possible for every league decisions, give them this same trust in the anti-cheating department.

One last thing, before I left the FBTF staff, I had a project to create a secret anti-cheating staff. The project was to call people that I trust, from different teams and social circles and that I know that knows the game well. Nobody except me and the co-headstaff would know who they were (and they wouldn't know who the others were either). So I'd get opinions from different sides and avoid any bias.

did you just provide proof for my argument that AC teams should provide some sort of explanation behind a ban by telling the world what your methods were and yet cheaters will still be able to be banned by AC teams everywhere?

I never argued for a client, for the reasons you gave

most of the cheaters they ban are idiots who don't know how to hide their cheats

by telling them what they looked for in previous cases and found, they are literally gifting these lazy bastards a guide on what to avoid

they will therefore avoid these mistakes and hide their hacks better

if these players are too stupid to learn how to hide their hacks what makes you think they'll look at AC posts to learn how to hide their hacks?

this is the most retarded argument i have seen someone bring up in all of these discussions

Now you are just trying to force it...

explain why I'm actually curious

I understand that there are more resources readily available for them to use but just because there is a library down the road from my house doesn't mean I'm going to read a book

better example
if I want to learn how to play guitar and I have internet access and my sister (who I live with) owns a guitar
does that mean I will learn how to play the guitar?

just because you are not gonna read the books does not mean some guy who isn't actually retarded is not going to. that's the point. you focusing on sideshow calling them dumb and then somehow coming to your conclusion just shows that you have no idea what you are talking about. just stop digging your own grave. try and actually think how these cheats are made. if you keep giving the programmers info on how not to get caught then you will never stay ahead in the race.
if you are actually interested, i read this a few weeks ago, it's not the same as our anti cheat team but it highlights the arms race between cheat makers and anti-cheat makers pretty well.
http://dvt.name/2015/finishing-what-intel-started-building-the-first-hardware-anti-cheat/
edit: forgot the link
edit2: yea that second post actually convinced me that you are either too dumb or just baiting. have fun.

????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

ok first: THERE IS NO USE OF PROGRAMS TO CATCH CHEATERS HERE
second: I NEVER CALLED ANYBODY STUPID
I may have unintentionaly implied it but if that is so I did not mean for it and apologize as such

Does etf2l know something the rest of the world doesn't? I find it really hard to believe ETF2L has some method at their disposal that cannot be learned of/obtained through some other medium on the internet...

There is a big difference between having to put in hundreds of your own hours improving at something without ever getting any detailed exact feedback, and being approached with the exact signs of you hacking that can be as easy to fix as just not doing something.

They probably don't. But who knows, there is a lot of pretty nieche info on tf2 stuff that only a handfull of people know about. It's not that far fetched that they have a few tricks up their sleeves in terms of taking apart demos and looking at them.
But even if the info is avialable somewhere else. Releasing info on how you caught the specific cheat that one player was using is just making it way too easy for cheat makers imo. The way it is now they at least have to find out themselves where they get caught.

OK want to repeat, we're not talking about anti cheat clients, there are never any specific cheats that are found and banned for. As for your first point, what makes you think that info available to the AC team is any less available to the cheaters?
As for your second point, they still would.

JarateKing, it's not the best of examples, I will admit. However, it's a fitting example anyway because the focus was on the motivation to act rather than the act itself

If you're downloading hacks you probably are already an idiot and won't be smart enough to effectively cover your hack
although there are exceptions, these would be the people who are difficult to catch anyway

*typo

#freeazn

I also want to say that I'm not necessarily arguing for the unban of aZN or baud

I'm simply saying proof of their cheats should at least be provided at least because of their status within the community

What the staff might use to prove someone is cheating isn't something deep hidden by the TF2 Anti-cheating staff illuminati, but little things that people interested in it find out and that works until the cheaters and cheat coders find out.

Using an example I gave in my second post in here, some years ago people found out a console command that let you see which key the guy pressed while watching a demo. After it, the coders updated their cheats to bypass it. But people found out later that when you were using a trigger/aimbot, the time the cheat would take to press and release a button would be inhumanly possible (there is a teamfortress.tv thread about it). And once again the coders bypassed it.

Also there was that time that the coder of an anti-cheat that worked serverside found out a breach that would let him take screenshots of the players screen and upload it to the server's ftp (but as it was a breach in the TF2 security, Valve patched it). The staffs at the time in Brazil actually got a cheater with this (and I think there was a case in Europe too).

Those are the kinds of things that as less people as possible know about, harder will be for the cheats coders and users to realize a way to bypass them.

Also, as I said before, sometimes the staff might receive confessions through a close friend/teammate of the accused, and in respect to the one "snitching", the staff shouldn't publicize it.

OK those are three things and by comparison the cheaters found by those methods are likely minimal compared to the grand scheme of cheaters caught especially since those methods tend to become public anyway, hence why we know about them

As for those methods, when they're found I would suggest the best idea would be to keep it secret and then ban a lot of the high profile players suspected of cheating in a WAVE similar to how vac does it instead of 1 x 1 and then you'll have proof, bans and you won't have to worry about relying on bullshit methods

as for the little fish they're blatant anyway, why worry?

and the screenshot thing is a huge breach of privacy imo, makes sense why they patched it

Isn't that what the ban posts are for? They ban several people in a WAVE similar to how vac does it instead of 1 x 1. It doesn't matter whether they are high-profile or not, they are ETF2L members and they are treated equally when they get caught hacking - they get banned.