(You can skip everything that isn't the "Suggestion" paragraph because most of my post is mainly boring fluff and explanation.)

Was that the one mix with the player constantly said that all he wanted was a kill because it is nice that you think I am a mid-open player but the point is valid. I have played TF2 on and off for a couple years and have racked up a couple hundred to, maybe, a 1000 hours of actual play time. I have also been getting into more competitive TF2 content which has lead me to play a couple newbie mixes (as Demo), which I have loved so far, but I think there needs to be a division on who can play and what roles people have.

As an example, there is nothing I can learn or a coach can tell me when I am getting killed each middle because my team has a person that doesn't know what rollouts are and 2 other players that don't comm who is dead/damaged/where enemies are while their team has 2 off class open level players. Coaches can't tell me what I did wrong or could have done better because they either can't see what I am doing, my mistakes are overshadowed by someone else's mistakes and/or one of the teams is being rolled.

Suggestion:

We already have New and Some Experience section for each class, let's use it. Let's have coaches choose a mix with mostly new or experienced players while having the amount of mixes a person played that night being secondary way to choose people. During a mix with new players, the coach plays with them and teaches them the basic rollouts, positioning, strategy, etc. A more experienced mix can have the coaches be specing their team or playing a position. This allows some coaches who want to help but rather not play or can give more in-depth advice when not having to think about actually playing the game.

This way, everyone in the mix is around the same skill level leading to less rolls and more situations a coach can interject something. A coach that is in a more experienced scrim can look at each of the players PoV or not have to worry about the lowest common denominator and explain why the team or an individual should push, fallback, jump in, positions, comm something, not comm something, switching the rollout, contest, set-up, switch class, looking for patterns, switch damaging targets, switch healing targets, waiting for forwards, suicides, hiding spots, sticky spots, when to use krtiz and etc. I have no idea how well this system would work, if at all, but I am really down for anything that can get qualified people to coach and remain coaching while giving newbies the knowledge they need.

We actually almost only play on granary and badlands to avoid the situations where we have to teach maps in addition to 6v6. This is something m0nster told me to do with the mixes. Since we only play the same two maps, the coaches and newbies learn to play 6v6 and can focus on strats and theories that apply to every map.

Honestly, my best advice for you would to be to just start playing in newbie mixes. Pick a class you like (I'm sensing soldier?) and start playing. You can post to the mentoring section here if you have questions or want to find someone to help introduce you to the game. Maybe if you are already in contact with frkn?

Second of all, for any new players reading this post, none of you should EVER be afraid to ask questions about the game on tf.tv. This is a place where the thing that brings us all together is our passion for TF2 (and stultus' stories) however corny that might sound. The fastest way you are going to learn is to start being vocal. Ask questions on tf.tv, show up to newbie mixes and ask questions! The whole point of getting coaches in there isn't to have them talk at you, it's to have them be available to answer your questions. There is no such thing as a stupid question in TF2, and you should never hesitate to ask them.

Also, while we're here, the idea for a rollout (on most maps) is that one soldier stays with the med to build uber (usually get to ~30-40% during rollout IIRC) and the other soldier uses the equalizer to take pressure off the med to balance heals and to take advantage of crit heals right before reaching the midfight. If you want to play soldier in the newbie mixes, I'd suggest learning the rollout on granary and maybe badlands (that's quite a bit harder though IMO for absolute newbies) and then when you play, ask if you can be the equalizing soldier.

Actually...we already do this. Half the mixes I organize (maybe slightly under half) are prioritized by "skill" rather than #of mixes played primarily. The problem is that most people don't know how good they are. It's very hard to create balanced pugs when the coaches don't know how good each player is. It's like saying every "mid Open" player is the same skill. This is not true. The problem is that in newbie mixes you have an extremely wide variety of skills (larger than any division I've ever seen in TF2). It's the equivalent of combining Open and IM in ESEA. Seems I've hit the post length?

Continued:

On one hand you have new new players. Scouts that almost never hit shots above 50 damage, don't understand simple DM things like using jumps and ammo management. Soldiers who can't rocket jump, can't hit shotties, etc. Medics who literally just have no FPS skills (who choose medic since they can't seem to be confident on any other class). Demomen who can't rollout or use anything other than pipes (this is far more rare).

On the other hand you get people in there with similar experience and time played to me. People with over 1000 hours in the game who have over 1800 ELO in MGE servers and hundreds of hours in jump maps.

Both groups have almost zero 6s experience so they both go to newbie mix to learn how to play 6s and then they realize that maybe the playing field isn't as level as they thought. In the meantime, the coaches have to somehow figure out how to adjust a team that loses seemingly because of really simple things (and in my experience, just a difference in the mechanics of the players) while trying to keep up their own production without carrying.

Honestly, I'm a little overwhelmed with the idea of trying to realistically balance these pugs since we get literally hundreds of players in the course of a night, let alone the fact that the people who show up each week differ. If anyone wants more fair pugs, maybe they could help us in mumble? I'm very open to the idea of trying new systems and experimenting with the structure of these, but I honestly want people to sponsor and host their own mixes (I'll provide mumble, servers, players and coaches) rather than me spending 30 hours a week trying to find the absolute find the best way to host these when, honestly, my opinion on the matter is that the most important thing for newbie mixes isn't the quality of games played, but the fact that these players are getting a chance to play as much 6v6 as possible within as short a time frame as possible. Newbie Mixes are about giving people who don't otherwise have a place to play 6v6 a place to play 6v6.

@Fzero, the plan has always been to host them on other nights but I scrim most nights and I like to take 1-2 days a week off TF2 since it not only wears down on me, but also my roommate who is usually in the room while I'm scrimming or trying to host newbie mixes. I can give permissions and resources to anyone who is qualified to run the mixes on a different night and I plan to do so myself sometime, but it just hasn't happened yet.

We've tried this and are leaning against it because from what we've heard back from players and coaches is that they prefer the coaches to play in the game and have a more physical presence in the game. I think it also helps when the coach can literally change the way the game is played rather than 100% relying on the newbies listening to him. This is important because new players are playing in a format that is not only unfamiliar to them, but also fairly complicated in ways that they do not yet comprehend. By playing in the PUGs, coaches can illustrate what they are trying to tell you and they can make sure at least some parts of the game go correctly. When a coach sits in spec, it's hard to expect the newbies to react to his/her advice because they are so new to the format that they don't know how to listen to the advice (if that makes any sense). Like, if you are coaching an Open team that has played a season together, and you tell how in real time how to use ubers better or get better positioning, they'll be able to use their experience to figure out what you want them to do, see why you are doing it, and then utilize it in game while combining with your personal style. A new player isn't necessarily capable of doing this. Lots of people are caught in the head lights, and for good reason; playing 6s makes you think about lots of things that most people don't know exist until they play competitive TF2. It's a harsh transition and that's why we run newbie mixes.

I think getting more people to know about the website/getting it more functional would be amazing. It's still a mainly "word of mouth" event that most coaches don't plan for. Throw in a few guides, add a queue for players and sign-up sheet for coaches, and things might run smoother. I honestly don't even remember they're happening even with it on the left sidebar.

Well instead of throwing newbies into mixes headfirst, what about creating a more formal initiation via a website? It could solve a few at once. It would prevent more experienced players from unbalancing the pugs, while at the same time providing a pressure-free environment for newbies and a resource for guides and answers to their questions.

If we made guides specifically for newbies detailing information that most of us take for granted, it could help lessen the skill gap between players. It won't improve DM or anything, but it'll give them a much better idea of what they should be doing. A quick, ten minute intro to scout, briefly explaining their functions in midfights, flanks, and offclassing. Another for Medic, explaining heal order, heal priority, interaction with the pocket, and tracking ubers. And another for pocket, roamer, and demo.

Clearly defining each classes role and giving examples from common situation will go a long way in helping a new player enter competitive play. A pocket's role can be summarized as protecting the medic and taking ubers, but there's so much more to it than that. Demo's role is usually summarized as 'deal damage,' which to a new player can mean absolutely nothing. If we produce some consistent, concise, and practical videos for each role, and for each major facet of the game they should be very appealing to new players, and do a lot of the coaches' work for them.

There is a website (I found their website yesterday before I posted), but most of the development was on the walking chat player :(

http://newbiemix.com

On the topic of unbalanced mixes, how about creating some list of categories the newbies can place themselves into.

1. Sub 200 hours/new to FPS/weak DM in pubs/still new to some class mechanics

2. 200-500 hours/familiar with all parts of the vanilla game/strong DM for most pubs

3. 500+ hours/extremely experienced pubbers/hopefully watched some matches/knows basics of the comp format/can top frag most pubs

They can place themselves in these groups so hopefully the mixes will be more strategy dependent rather than DM dependent once you place the similar grouped players together. Also perhaps ask that players with under a threshold of hours not play unless they really get the game? That might be subjective though.

That is a website Technosex made for us in order to alleviate the manual effort that goes into throwing the mixes. I suggest for anyone who hasn't shown up for a newbie mix to come to the mumble sometime and check out how it works.

We mostly function through this steam group:

http://steamcommunity.com/groups/na6v6newbiemix

Not through the website (or any website). Once I get back in touch with technosex we can work on making the website a HUB rather than the Steam group. Now that we talk about it though, I might talk to Enigma and see if there could be any tf.tv support for this. Maybe a tab or a stickied post in mentoring or something could help new players find the proper resources.

@Alleal - These resource exist. I watched hours of MGE videos before playing 6v6 and it helped a lot. Any player can watch a stream, cast, or the old MGE videos and start learning about sixes. They can go to SPUF, r/tf2, tf.tv, ugc forums among other places and start asking questions. We need to find a balance between spoon feeding new players resources (which takes too much effort as I've been trying to do this for months and I can barely make a dent) and having the new players be resourceful to some degree. I think both are good since the best competitive players are people who are resourceful, outspoken, and dedicated. Those are the people who hunt out the resources instead of expecting the resources to come to them.

I'll change the categories for the next set of mixes and we'll see how they go. Right now the biggest problem is a lack of statistics. I haven't been keeping track of the current # of rolls so I won't know if any measures are helping or hurting overall.

I know they exist, but the information is scattered, long winded, inconsistent, and sometimes just unprofessional. clockwork's scout basics MGE video contained great information, but it was almost painful to listen to with all the sound bites and audio clipping. Bloodsire's sniper tips video was fantastic to someone interested in pursuing competitive sniping, but to someone who just wanted an intro overview of Sniper's function in 6's it's about 30 minutes too long. What we're trying to do is bridge the gap between new players and experienced ones, and I don't think we should underestimate the value of a consistent, polished, and concise set of introductory media.

Ah, that's cool. I do kind of feel like I need to work on one or two maps at a time, just to cement things.

Yeah, I'm definitely going to make it to a mix soon, hopefully this Friday. I would have played last time, but I was way too ill. I'm not in touch with frkn, but he gave he a link to some STV demos of last LAN upthread, which was greatly appreciated. I was really sick over the weekend, but I spent a little while watching mixup's rollouts on Badlands at 50% speed, along with other parts of the match.

I'm at a tricky stage in my tf2 development. I have about 100 hours of play-time, basically 75% Solly, 25% Scout. When I play on average pubs I often stomp pretty hard, but when I play on good pubs I sometimes do OK, and sometimes get stomped myself. And when I stomp, and then watch demos of me stomping, I realize that I am terribad, but the other team is terribadder. I'm not really good enough to play 6s at this point, but...

I like tf2, and it's the game my friends/co-workers play. But I've played enough now that I think I'd enjoy a more coordinated, skill-based format, even if I get stomped a lot. I got on a pub that's usually pretty reasonable the other day, on Granary. In our yard (we were defending last) were two wrangled 3s. We had 5 engies on our team, plus some spies and snipers. The other team looked like it was about the same, and there was an epic wrangler vs sniper battle going on. I didn't stay long enough to find out how it turned out.

So, since I know that in pugs, and even in newbie mixes, there are going to be a lot of people who are a lot better than me at dm and movement the quickest way for me to get as viable as possible is to know where to be and what to do. I really need to work on the movement too, as I think that's going to improve much more quickly with practice than the dm.

You guys are definitely very chill and friendly. Even though I haven't done one yet, thanks for running the newbie mixes. I sometimes feel like tf2 is a good game hidden inside a bad game (the bad game is the one with five engies per team) and I'd like to play the good one, but it's hard to break into. I'm never going to be an invite-level player, but I think it would be cool if there were pugs and even very casual leagues for less-skilled players to play the good game in.

I just wrote a couple of my friends about the mixes, and hopefully they will make it to some in the near-future too.

I might start asking some questions about what I am seeing in the demos I am watching (wish they had comms) in the help forum. There's a lot I don't understand. But I do kind of feel like STV demos are a lot more useful than vids, since they let you see things at variable speed from lots of perspectives.

This much, at least, I have figured out. But it leaves a lot of questions I shouldn't ask here, and can't because I am at the character limit. Sorry if I rambled... antihistamines ftw.

Thanks again.

Newbie mixes are going to happen on Friday and Saturday this week. Please come by and let me know if you wanna try anything special. I'm down to experiment but I need people to come by and actually do the things they advocate.

Add me on steam if you want (link in profile). I'm only mid-high open but that's plenty good to help a new player get started. I've played both roamer and pocket for teams so I'm quite familiar with soldier and have some main-calling experience.

Edit: forgot to add that I won't really be available over winter break, but after that I can help.